Proper wiring to code of pool light with GFCI breaker - Electrician clarification please

[time2roll]

Yes so my vintage 1970s pool light was wired same. Neutral switched. Was doing some other related work and the electrician straightened it out.

I am now looking at replacing the feed breaker at the panel with GFCI. afaik all things pool related need to be on GFCI.

 

[DPC]

A neighbour of mine a pool put in and it was not bonded.
I argued with the installer....

Neighbour did not understand and I withdrew from that situation and never discussed it again
There are a lot of weird rules about wiring in milking parlours and medical equipment.
Did you know you have to run a 8 g ground to a stripper pole?

 

[timselectric]

Did you know you have to run a 8 g ground to a stripper pole?

Not sure if I should admit it, but yes I did. lol

 

[dragonfly zone]

Hi all
My first time posting on this forum. I am from South Africa my occupation is a MIE( master installation electrician) and a solar system installer.
Concerning the pool light safety aspect. Our code Sans10142 dictates that a pool light voltage may not exceed 24v ac. Majority pool lights is 12v and is powered by a transformer 230v primary 12v secondary where the primary side of the transformer is protected by means of a RCD at the utility breaker panel. One of the legs on the 12v side is used to switch the light on or off.

 

[hwy17]

Do you have a bonding wire for the pool that connects to the pump?

Just as important as GFCI and sometimes people forget to reconnect it and the end gets buried in dirt or corrodes out of sight, etc.

 

[DPC]

Not sure if I should admit it, but yes I did. lol

Wash your hands after bonding the stripper pole.....

First this I think about before I touch things in a bar now....

 

[DPC]

Hi all
My first time posting on this forum. I am from South Africa my occupation is a MIE( master installation electrician) and a solar system installer.
Concerning the pool light safety aspect. Our code Sans10142 dictates that a pool light voltage may not exceed 24v ac. Majority pool lights is 12v and is powered by a transformer 230v primary 12v secondary where the primary side of the transformer is protected by means of a RCD at the utility breaker panel. One of the legs on the 12v side is used to switch the light on or off.

Thats a pretty good code.

You use Consumer unit like in the UK with a RDC built into the main breaker?

Yes low voltage lighting is available here too, but we don't have a code rule around using it in place like this.

 

[Q-Dog]

Wash your hands after bonding the stripper pole.....

First this I think about before I touch things in a bar now....

Completely off topic, but I once had to come up with a TV commercial for a strip club ... to air on prime time television, and had to be "family friendly" (whatever that means)! Met the owner at the place and found out they actually served food there, sort of cafeteria style. Women serving soup in bikinis. Hooters had nothing on this place.

We finally settled on the idea that men are simple, so promoted the food aspect, with lots of close up shots of women smiling while waiting tables. I would love to have seen someone twirling around the pole with a plate of spaghetti, but that was a little too much for the ladies to handle.

Anyway, They owner was happy abd said the commercial worked for them. The checks cleared. Rent was paid. I never went back there.

Side note. Don't go to a strip club during the day ... darkness hides a lot of stuff.

 

[WorldwideDave]

GFCI's measure the current flowing out the hot and compare it to the current coming back on the neutral. If the imbalance exceeds the rating it will trip. Basically if any current flows to ground bypassing the neutral then it will shut off the power. Typically 5mA but can vary based on GFCI type and use

Because you state the neutral wire attaches to the breaker lug and the pigtail of the breaker to the neutral buss, hot to the breaker lug. This sounds correct. So it should provide the protection

If you pull the switch out and connect the meter to either terminal and ground what do you get? Then flip the switch and test the terminals again

If the switch is connected to the neutral, with the switch "off" it will have one terminal showing hot while the other not. This will look very much like a standard installation. And when you turn the switch "on" both terminals should show little to no voltage. This would be the opposite of what you would see if the switch was connected to the hot line

If the hot is continuous to the light and the neutral is switched. Voltage will pass right through the light and to the switch and stick there if it is off. This is because there is no load so no voltage drop. Once you turn the neutral attached switch on, it connects the neutral to the light. This creates a low resistance path to a zero reference point. Now there is a voltage drop across the light. So neutral in this position will read zero or nearly so since there may be a slight amount of resistance on the wires.

This is gold thanks. Want me to leave wires attached to switch and test or disconnect the wires from switch and read? Or do both?

 

[WorldwideDave]

Without looking at it I cant offer you much advice since your not sure yourself.

If your really worried hired a reputable qualified electricians to look it all over and fix anything that might be wrong.
That's my best advice its the safest option I think.

Fair. Friend coming today maybe he said.

 

[DPC]

No shame getting an expert in.
I pay other trades people to do things around my home because a roofer dry wall installer does a better job than me

 

[Backyard]

This is gold thanks. Want me to leave wires attached to switch and test or disconnect the wires from switch and read? Or do both?

Keep them attached and test

 

[Quattrohead]

Hi all
My first time posting on this forum. I am from South Africa my occupation is a MIE( master installation electrician) and a solar system installer.
Concerning the pool light safety aspect. Our code Sans10142 dictates that a pool light voltage may not exceed 24v ac. Majority pool lights is 12v and is powered by a transformer 230v primary 12v secondary where the primary side of the transformer is protected by means of a RCD at the utility breaker panel. One of the legs on the 12v side is used to switch the light on or off.

I don't know if that is official code in the USA but certainly the pool I just had put in is low voltage lighting.

 

[timselectric]

I don't know if that is official code in the USA but certainly the pool I just had put in is low voltage lighting.

Not code.
But has become an industry standard.
Sometimes we change for the good, without being forced by big brother.

 

[timselectric]

Electricity and water are a scary combination.
Especially when we actually choose to put them together.

 

[DPC]

Not code.
But has become an industry standard.
Sometimes we change for the good, without being forced by big brother.

The NFPA is not big brother.
Its the Insurance industry.

 

[timselectric]

The NFPA is not big brother.
Its the Insurance industry.

There are several big brothers.
You can spot them buy their bank accounts.

 

[DPC]

There are several big brothers.
You can spot them buy their bank accounts.

The banksters?

 

[WorldwideDave]

No shame getting an expert in.
I pay other trades people to do things around my home because a roofer dry wall installer does a better job than me

he was a no show, so there's that.

 

[WorldwideDave]

Keep them attached and test

Test done.
First of all remember that the pool light is disconnected.
Test in the light switch box:
Breaker on, light switch off.
Across both posts of the switch: 1.1V
Wire from pool light to ground/metal box is 1.1V
Wire from panel to ground/metal box is 0.

Is it normal to see 1.1VAC on basically a wire not connected to anything (between the switch and the pool box and ground)?

Next test is breaker on, switch on, wires in pool light box still disconnected:

Same three tests, all are zero volts. Zero from ground to either wire. Zero between both posts on the switch.

Thoughts @timselectric and others? And thank you so much!

 

[WorldwideDave]

Also I think that because I never saw 120v or close to it in the switch box or attached to the switch I would think that it is the neutral that is switched. I can hook up a load in the pool light box if you’d like. Can be anything to complete the circuit. Could be outlet or the light. Up to you.

 

[timselectric]

Is it normal to see 1.1VAC on basically a wire not connected to anything (between the switch and the pool box and ground)?

That's just a calibration offset of the meter accuracy.
Nothing to worry about. (Close enough to zero)

Next test is breaker on, switch on, wires in pool light box still disconnected:

Same three tests, all are zero volts. Zero from ground to either wire. Zero between both posts on the switch.

Thoughts @timselectric and others? And thank you so much!

Either you don't have a good ground at the box, or maybe it is that the neutral is what is being switched.
Truthfully, if the light works as it's currently wired. And you can verify that the GFCI breaker is capable of operating correctly (wired correctly). I would leave it as is.
But only if you can verify the GFCI functions correctly.
This would require a different tester or testing method.
You need to place a small load between the hot and ground, then turn on the breaker. (It should trigger the GFCI protection immediately)

 

[time2roll]

Post 26 video seems long but covers all this grounding, bonding, voltage to earth etc.
All the direct testing is walked through with an explanation of the correct results and why it matters around a pool.

 

[WorldwideDave]

That's just a calibration offset of the meter accuracy.
Nothing to worry about. (Close enough to zero)

Either you don't have a good ground at the box, or maybe it is that the neutral is what is being switched.
Truthfully, if the light works as it's currently wired. And you can verify that the GFCI breaker is capable of operating correctly (wired correctly). I would leave it as is.
But only if you can verify the GFCI functions correctly.
This would require a different tester or testing method.
You need to place a small load between the hot and ground, then turn on the breaker. (It should trigger the GFCI protection immediately)

There is a junction box where the pool light is. I could hook up a 20 amp heavy duty outlet and plug-in a GFCI / AFCI tester. It will also show if the wiring is correct or incorrect. Is that something you would like me to try? I would leave the switch on during testing.

Bad ground at the switch box is very much possible because it’s simply connects to the conduit below it and runs into the cement pad around the pool. There is no green wire inside the light switch box screwed into the side of the box. It is at least 55 years old. But there is a green wire running all the way to where the pool light junction box is.
Also, directly above the light switch box is the actual load center. Want me to do some continuity testing or something?
Just tell me what it is you want me to do and I will do it and report back.

 

[timselectric]

There is a junction box where the pool light is. I could hook up a 20 amp heavy duty outlet and plug-in a GFCI / AFCI tester. It will also show if the wiring is correct or incorrect. Is that something you would like me to try? I would leave the switch on during testing.

That would work for testing the GFCI protection.
Switch position shouldn't matter, if it's actually switching the neutral.

Want me to do some continuity testing or something?

Continuity testing will be good for checking all metal parts around the pool. To verify if they are bonded, and how well. Don't forget to test the actual water in the pool, also.