Purchasing a new house, want to diy solar install.

[doox00]

Hey all, I am new to solar so have a lot to learn. My wife and I are purchasing a new house in rural area with some land. We have lots of open space to put up a large solar array. To start I would like to tie into our current electricity provider but eventually add batteries and go off grid but trying to save some cost up front and deal with expanding in a year or 3.

I run a business from home that uses a decent amount of power and in our current house we use about 100kWh per day total for home and business of electricity. So I would like enough panels that will on average cover this power usage in the summer (as winter usage is a slightly less due to less AC usage). Recommendations on which panels and how many would be needed? Also what all other equipment will be needed to tie into the electrical grid? I assume the power company will need to be involved at some point as well.

Thanks for any information to get me started!

 

[DIYrich]

What is your kW requirements? Max power usage at any point in time.

With ground mount. Consider bifacial panels. Put white rocks underneath to improve generation on back side.

100kWh per day is about a 30kW system. Looking at 2 sol-ark 15k or EG4 18k. May need more depending upon peak power needs.
Consider building an insulated shed to hold the inverters and batteries.
Propane backup generator for extended bad weather - or over panel with lots of extra batteries.
If you can go off grid from day 1, you can avoid dealing with the power company. Generator might get you through until you can expand system.

DIY 14kWh battery is about $3,000. You will eventually want 100kWh to 300kWh of batteries, depending upon how much you want to rely on the generator.

Look at Outback System. They are modular, but may be better for a large off-grid system. Modular is nice because if one of your 5 charge controllers fail, you still have the other 4. Or. If one of your 5 inverters fail. You have 4 left. Also easier to expand. You will want to over design so you don't run at 100%, that will give you excess when one module fails.

Might want to look at off-grid systems. They cannot backfeed the grid, but may be cheaper because of that limitation. They can take power from the grid via the generator port.

 

[doox00]

What is your kW requirements? Max power usage at any point in time.

With ground mount. Consider bifacial panels. Put white rocks underneath to improve generation on back side.

100kWh per day is about a 30kW system. Looking at 2 sol-ark 15k or EG4 18k. May need more depending upon peak power needs.
Consider building an insulated shed to hold the inverters and batteries.
Propane backup generator for extended bad weather - or over panel with lots of extra batteries.
If you can go off grid from day 1, you can avoid dealing with the power company. Generator might get you through until you can expand system.

DIY 14kWh battery is about $3,000. You will eventually want 100kWh to 300kWh of batteries, depending upon how much you want to rely on the generator.

Look at Outback System. They are modular, but may be better for a large off-grid system.

Might want to look at off-grid systems. They cannot backfeed the grid, but may be cheaper because of that limitation. They can take power from the grid via the generator port.

To start I would like to tie into the current electrical grid, so at night and low sun days power is not an issue. I would like enough panels to mostly cancel out the electrical bill each month. Later on I will look into batteries and going off grid but for now it is not an option due to costs.

The house has a whole house generator that auto kicks on when power goes out so I imagine I can use that in the future to charge batteries if need be when I decide to go that route.

Besides needing ~30kW of panels what other equipment is needed to tie into the power grid?

Thanks again

 

[rhino]

When you say "tie into the power grid" I assume you mean to just use power from grid when you need it and not sell back, correct? If you sell back you are going to have to go through a lot more hoops.

Do you require electrical inspection and UL Listing for the equipment you use?

Are you planning on using a ground mount for the solar panels?

What part of the US are you in?

 

[DIYrich]

Besides needing ~30kW of panels what other equipment is needed to tie into the power grid?

The inverter. Install in whole house mode (not critical loads panel) since that is how you want to eventually go. Utility or permit may want a cutoff switch at the meter.

You may want a transfer switch if you want to run when grid is down. If whole house generator, then you can use its switch. Some inverters have isolation built in, so you don't need the transfer switch. Cutoff switch at Meter also works.

Design your final system so everything is installed with off grid in mind. Bus bars, power distribution, wireways, wall spacing, etc. The pieces may start far apart, but all the space will fill in. You will also pick components that will work together in the end. And not just adequate for the beginning.

If cost is an issue, you can build panels in sections. 15kW with one sol-ark/eg4. Add a second when you have more funds. You will also figure out from actual experience how much you need.

 

[Mike 134]

Based on your questions you have a lot to learn. We all started from zero, the successful projects did a lot of reading.

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[doox00]

When you say "tie into the power grid" I assume you mean to just use power from grid when you need it and not sell back, correct? If you sell back you are going to have to go through a lot more hoops.

Do you require electrical inspection and UL Listing for the equipment you use?

Are you planning on using a ground mount for the solar panels?

What part of the US are you in?

By tie into the grid I mean I would like to sell back if possible if that is the what it is called. So during the night when I am not producing power I can use the credits I gained during the day and not have interrupted power.

I am planning on building a ground mount and I am located in Michigan.

 

[B-Mod]

When you say "tie into the power grid" I assume you mean to just use power from grid when you need it and not sell back, correct? If you sell back you are going to have to go through a lot more hoops.

Do you require electrical inspection and UL Listing for the equipment you use?

Are you planning on using a ground mount for the solar panels?

What part of the US are you in?

Very good questions! Also you can do what you want to do with very little to no battery and add that in later as needed/wanted.

 

[doox00]

The inverter. Install in whole house mode (not critical loads panel) since that is how you want to eventually go. Utility or permit may want a cutoff switch at the meter.

You may want a transfer switch if you want to run when grid is down. If whole house generator, then you can use its switch. Some inverters have isolation built in, so you don't need the transfer switch. Cutoff switch at Meter also works.

Design your final system so everything is installed with off grid in mind. Bus bars, power distribution, wireways, wall spacing, etc. The pieces may start far apart, but all the space will fill in. You will also pick components that will work together in the end. And not just adequate for the beginning.

If cost is an issue, you can build panels in sections. 15kW with one sol-ark/eg4. Add a second when you have more funds. You will also figure out from actual experience how much you need.

To start off I would like to be "tied in" to the electric company, so I can earn credit or however it works, so during the night when I am not producing power I can use those credits I earned during the day and have uninterrupted power and ultimately eliminate the monthly power bill. Eventually it would be nice to go completely off grid but for now I am more focused on working in conjunction with the electric company.

Thanks again

 

[B-Mod]

What does your utility pay for your extra power? And at what terms? This is a factor needed too know if selling back in your case is even worth it with the amount of energy you use daily.

I have a full electric house and 2 to 3 electric cars so my usage is up around your usage and above at many points of the year.

Being in Michigan look into Sinclar for a ground mount. Very good people and a good prices. Go with an adjustable angle ground mount. You will thank me later, as in winter snow removal.

 

[doox00]

What does your utility pay for your extra power? And at what terms? This is a factor needed too know if selling back in your case is even worth it with the amount of energy you use daily.

I have a full electric house and 2 to 3 electric cars so my usage is up around your usage and above at many points of the year.

Being in Michigan look into Sinclar for a ground mount. Very good people and a good prices. Go with an adjustable angle ground mount. You will thank me later, as in winter snow removal.

I am not sure what the electric company pays, it is consumers energy. They have Net Metering Program they call it you have to sign up for. I will check out sinclair for the ground mount but I had planned on making one myself that can be manually adjusted.

I am trying to do as much of this on my own as I can, as far as all the hardware etc. I realize I will probably need to hire someone near the end of the install to go over everything and do what is needed to get hooked up to the grid. I have a friend who paid a company to install his system and the price was insane imo, 8000 watts of panels (actually may be less than this, I have to ask him again. I know they were 250 watt panels) on this roof, using micro inverters and tied into the grid and he paid over 30k for that. I know I have everything to learn yet about this but I am a diy kinda person and I imagine I could put in a system of similar or larger size for half that amount.. maybe I am wrong though.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Go with an adjustable angle ground mount. You will thank me later, as in winter snow removal.

plus 1

 

[rhino]

I am planning on building a ground mount and I am located in Michigan.

I would look at http://sinclair-designs.com since they are probably the best quality ground mount system out there for DIY and they are also based in Michigan (Albion) so you can pick it up and not have shipping charges.

 

[OffGridForGood]

I know I have everything to learn yet about this

A good first step, keep reading, all you can, ask questions

but I am a diy kinda person

You came to the right place then!

and I imagine I could put in a system of similar or larger size for half that amount.. maybe I am wrong though.

you are not wrong. At a minimum, you will save the labour and profit the installer would have charged you, but will take longer.

A few items to consider:
Ground mount - may save you from needing RSD (rapid shut down), and AFDD - arc-fault detection/disconnect.
Solar Shed - someone noted above, this may save you from some regulation issues too, if the shed is dedicated for only solar equipment.
Insurance - check requirements impacts,
Utility rules reg. requirements - check the utiltity rates paid.charged/TOU etc, but also know, they may have equipement requirements - check before you buy.
Solar is expensive, research is cheap(er).

 

[DIYrich]

With adjustable ground mount, place the main support at the center of gravity. Makes it easier to tilt.

 

[Mike 134]

https://www.consumersenergy.com/residential/renewable-energy/net-metering/-/media/4DBEF49B27624E3CA37D32F8EC9FD30A.ashx

Net Metering | Consumers Energy

If you’re interested in generating your own renewable energy at your home of business, Net Metering could be for you. As part of the Net Metering program, you’ll earn credit on your monthly energy bill for any excess energy you don’t use.

www.consumersenergy.com

Net Metering FAQs | Consumers Energy

Frequently asked questions about net metering

www.consumersenergy.com

I see you can also get REC's (I'll let you discover what a REC is in your quest) Be sure a DIY project qualifies for them in Michigan. In Illinois it does not unless you meet certain professional qualifications.

 

[OffGridForGood]

What would I want someone to tell me about if I was just starting out as doox00:

Bi-directional sun following array is typically not worth the expense, just get more regular gound mounts, consider SE, S SW mounting directions.
Go to PVWatts and play with the calculator - check all times of the year.
In snow belt MI, single tilt arrays - steep angle for winter to assist with snow removal, flatter angle for summer. PVWatts to calculate when to move it.
Shade - review the property, where do trees or other items cast shadows, avoid these areas, or build the gound mount taller.
Double use for PV gound mount - The shade and "roof" created by the PV can serve as a place to store things, or cool some other item like a shed, in the shade created by the PV array.
Rules, Regulations, Inspections, Utiltity rates, feed-in rates, net metering, etc. - Do the research and find out what your dealing with.
Budget - make a spreadsheet and put everything you will need on this list, the disconnects, fuses, breakers wire will cost a lot more than you think.
Down load the Solar Audit tool from resources on this forum, take the time to fill it out completely, ask for help when you need it.
Buy a Kil-O-Watt tool and record what power the cycling appliances actually use.
Consider future expansion right from the beginning - growing family? EV in the future? expansion of your business needs,
Grid-interactive is cheaper than batteries, but relies on the grid being available, and meeting the rules/regs,
Batteries can be just for outages, less expensive, or use a genset for utility outages if these are rare. Batteries can be expanded over time.
- I built my system in stages, over a few years. I started out with just the business in mind for the solar system, but quickly expanded to include my home (next door) as well. Using the business may allow financial benefits that are better compared with personal investment in solar.

 

[doox00]

Is there a way to diy a system that can still use the utility company power but does not sell back to the grid but instead during the day charges a few batteries with the excess power from the panels and when the sun goes down your system uses the batteries but if the batteries were to die you would be automatically switched to using grid power until the sun is up etc.. that make sense?

At least in a situation like this I won't need a crazy amount of batteries to start with and can still rely on grid power. After looking into net metering a little bit I don't think I want to go that route, does not seem too diy friendly.

 

[Quattrohead]

The solark inverters will absolutely charge your batteries and not feedback to utility, the eg418k does have this capability too but is still being worked on. Or you can just get an EG4 chargeverter for charging from grid and use whatever inverters and batteries you feel like.

 

[Cuemaker]

Is there a way to diy a system that can still use the utility company power but does not sell back to the grid but instead during the day charges a few batteries with the excess power from the panels and when the sun goes down your system uses the batteries but if the batteries were to die you would be automatically switched to using grid power until the sun is up etc.. that make sense?

At least in a situation like this I won't need a crazy amount of batteries to start with and can still rely on grid power. After looking into net metering a little bit I don't think I want to go that route, does not seem too diy friendly.

That's the route I decided to take. My electric company sent a packet with all kind of legal stuff.
Then it would cost almost $2000 for them to hookup my system to the power company + I would have to have a $1,000,000 insurance policy.
I put in an off-grid system with disconnects, so I can use solar or shore power.
My inverters will switch automatically when the batteries got to low if I left shore power connected.
If you use 100kw @ day you would need a pretty big solar system to cover your needs.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Is there a way to diy a system that can still use the utility company power but does not sell back to the grid but instead during the day charges a few batteries with the excess power from the panels and when the sun goes down your system uses the batteries but if the batteries were to die you would be automatically switched to using grid power until the sun is up etc.. that make sense?

Yes,
This is a very common system, and exactly what I do myself and many on this forum are doing.

 

[doox00]

Yes,
This is a very common system, and exactly what I do myself and many on this forum are doing.

Ohh awesome, good to hear. I figure I will start off with 8-12k watts of panels and enough batteries to get me through a night. Someone mentioned the EG4 18k inverter, I think that would provide all the power I would ever need. Does that charge and monitor the batteries as well?

 

[chrisski]

I use this website

JRC Photovoltaic Geographical Information System (PVGIS) - European Commission

Photovoltaic Geographical Information System (PVGIS)

re.jrc.ec.europa.eu

Go to grid tied and put in the size of the array for planning.
A 30 kWh array is huge, and for Flynt Michigan with a 100 kWh a day, 3 MWh a month, you’ll exceed production in the summer, fall short in the winter, and overall produce 37 MWh of a 36 MWh requirement , so should be a good size.

My local planning is $15k per 5 kW production for a grid tied with panels on the roof installed. A ground mount would make this more expensive.

I estimate $90k installed, likely more with a ground mount. Eventually, you’ll get 1/3 rd the money back with a rebate.
/———/
That’s how I get started to give me a cost estimate. DIY, I would think at least $30 k total install.

 

[DIYrich]

Ohh awesome, good to hear. I figure I will start off with 8-12k watts of panels and enough batteries to get me through a night. Someone mentioned the EG4 18k inverter, I think that would provide all the power I would ever need. Does that charge and monitor the batteries as well?

Yes, it will charge the batteries.

With an 8-12k system, you may produce excess power during summer months. Mire than you can use and store.

 

[doox00]

Yes, it will charge the batteries.

With an 8-12k system, you may produce excess power during summer months. Mire than you can use and store.

Yeah, over time I would add more batteries and panels as needed to help with winter months.