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Pure sine wave low frequency transformer inverters that support common neutral

mondurr

New Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2024
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34
Location
USA
I'm looking for recommendations on an inverter to act as a UPS for a few things in my home. I was really close to just getting a cheaper 6kW Aims/Sigineer/SGP (they're all the same) low frequency unit until I learned that these things are not designed to share a common neutral with the rest of your AC system. The manuals all state that you should never connect the "input neutral" to "output neutral". I've seen a lot of speculation that it would work anyway, with some claiming to have even done this with some of these units, but then there's a whole host of issues surrounding neutral ground bonds with being on inverter power vs pass through. I've seen some highly technical discussions with some speculating that these cheaper Chinese units have cheaped on the input side (they don't even accept input neutral), and so problems can occur on the output side if the output neutral is connected to your main panel neutral in parallel with the grid. I don't really want to get into all of that here, I don't understand much of it anyway, but suffice to say I want to buy a unit where I don't have to worry about any of that and where the unit itself has a neutral input and output that are the same.

The reason I want a low frequency model is I need to power a large sewage pump with an LRA of 57A @ 230V (FLA is 13.7A), and I want there to be as near zero chance as I can get that the inverter would responsible for killing that pump.

So apologies for the long back story, but I'm looking for inverters that can handle 57A @ 230V for <100ms, provide 120/240 split phase output, and have a common neutral architecture. I'd also like to do this for $1500 or less if I can.

So far my top contender is one of the ~4kW Magnum Energy units. These things look like total beasts with whopping 120A (1ms) surge capability, common neutral, and by far the best manual I've seen on any of these (wow what a change from those poorly translated Chinese units). Those are running around $2k and I think I can throw the federal tax credit at that to get the final cost down to $1400. Are there any other companies I should look at? I know there are several like Outback and Samlex, but their inverters that could power this pump are a lot more expensive.

EDIT: Adding a diagram of how I hope to make this work
inverterpanel.png
 
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If there is a possibility of installing a soft starter on the sewage pump to cut the inrush, your choices of lower cost inverters would increase greatly.

Schneider Conext 4048 would be a good choice but the spec sheet lists peak current at 41A.
 
Unfortunately I can't, the controls for this pump are located on the pump itself, 8 foot down in a sewage pit :) It has its own capacitor based starter, without it I think the LRA would be even higher. It's a real overkill beast of a pump, but there is no way I'm having that pit opened again and having the pump replaced until it reaches the end of its life, it's a long and messy (literally) story.

Now maybe there is something that would work, I'm far from an SME on this stuff, all I have coming out of the pit is a heavy power cable with a molded 6-20P plug on the end.
 
I don't think they're being sold now but the Growatt SPF meets most of your criteria, I'm not sure if it's low frequency or not. I have a 6k and a 12k that have never had any problems with a deep well pump or any of my freezers and refrigerators. The input is just L1 and L2 with no neutral. the output is split phase from the transformer with a neutral that gets tied to the common neutral in the sub panel.
 
I don't think they're being sold now but the Growatt SPF meets most of your criteria, I'm not sure if it's low frequency or not. I have a 6k and a 12k that have never had any problems with a deep well pump or any of my freezers and refrigerators. The input is just L1 and L2 with no neutral. the output is split phase from the transformer with a neutral that gets tied to the common neutral in the sub panel.
Thanks, I'll check into those. It's always the ones that have no input neutral that have a big warning in the manual to not connect output neutral to source neutral, but good to hear it's working for you in this configuration. I'd love to just buy a $1000 6kW (18kW surge) Sigineer that will power practically my whole home sans air conditioner, but they have that big warning about the neutral and I can't trust them not to burn my house down. I would totally risk it for an out building, though.

EDIT: Ok I do remember looking at these, specifically the SPF 6000T DVM with surge up to 18kW. I think it would work, and while it has no input neutral, it doesn't have any warnings about it not working, but it also doesn't say these are stackable. I think that's the key differentiator, if a unit doesn't support parallel operation, it probably doesn't correctly support common neutral, and like others I've seen there's no input neutral on these. I suspect this unit has the same type of configuration as the aims/sgp/signeer, but at least the manual doesn't have scary warnings and you've confirmed it's working in your environment. All that said, these are harder to source.
 
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It’s not really clear if Magnum Inverters are even still being made by their manufacturer, and you get severely nickel and dimed on the accessories, so might just end up with an EG4 setup. I saw signature solar’s video where they hit 96A inrush on a single 6000xp unit, so I think it can probably start my pump. Can it start my pump with two refrigerators and a gas tankless water heater, though? I might have to find out.

What scares me off the EG4 is I’ve read to expect 15 years out of something like a Magnum, and maybe 5 years out of an 6000xp or similar. Ironically EG4 has a better warranty than Magnum, though (5yr vs 2yr).
 
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This may be of interest for your application. 18,000W surge is their claim.

Yeah this looks like exactly what I need, thanks! The price is right, and a US company to boot. Why don't they have the manual on their site, though? Their operation seems a bit amateurish to be honest, seems they are pretty new and maybe a one man operation? I love it, though, he's got it right on the site "Tired of trying to get support for a rebranded inverter that the seller doesn't know anything about?" This is exactly my entire problem with this industry lol. I'm willing to give them a chance, will have to read through the manual and make sure it's going to work for me.

I really don't get why they don't just keep the manual linked on their main site, though, this is a red flag. Here's the latest one I could find: https://www.genetrysolar.com/wp-con...2K-Inverter-Manual-Rev-C-1-2r5-BETA-DRAFT.pdf

EDIT: Wow and built in MQTT support and built in web server? This is great (I'm a software eng and also hook everything I can into Home Assistant).

EDIT2: Having doubts this will work due to some warnings in the manual. I'm conversing with someone from the company over text, pretty nice to get direct contact with someone who designed the thing. I'm probably going to find a way to make this work even if I have to just use an interlock with a pair of 3 pole breakers and switch neutral.

EDIT3: They got back to me and said it will work.
 
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Check out the Samlex EVO-4248SP:



Don Rowe has 'em for $1549:


And if you wanna see another amazing manual:


Long and prestigious track record.
 
Check out the Samlex EVO-4248SP:



Don Rowe has 'em for $1549:


And if you wanna see another amazing manual:


Long and prestigious track record.
Do you think this one could start my pump, though? They list max surge at 35A and my pump hits 50A on my inrush meter, but I don't have an oscilloscope to more acurately measure the duration of that surge. In just regular min/max mode my meter shows 25A max, so the 50A inrush is likely very brief (<100ms for certain).

EDIT: Found a lot more info on the surge capabilities in the manual and I think it can in fact start this pump without issue. Also confirmed in the excellent manual that common neutral is fully endorsed. Thanks for the recommendation, I think this is one is a winner for sure!
Maximum Output Fault AC Current and Duration - 147.8A peak, 64.63A rms, Duration: 8.9ms
 
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Learned something interesting, devices that charge up capacitors on start up (eg switching power supplies) see near total short inrush conditions for a couple of cycles when power is applied. I would guess it’s the starter capacitor on my pump that is responsible for the large inrush when the float closes the circuit. This leads me to speculate that any inverter that won’t trip immediately will start this pump, so I may well be just fine with a high frequency inverter that won’t balk at 50A for few ms.
 
Yes, capacitors do act like a direct short circuit for a very brief period of time. However, motor start capacitors are relatively small compared to the bank of filter Caps found in inverters. The majority of the inrush current in an induction motor are the windings in the motor itself. If you were to check resistance of the static windings it is quite low. Its the back EMF once the motor starts spinning that blocks current and allows the motor to operate at low current levels.
 
I haven't made a decision yet, but I think I'm down to the Samlex EVO-4248SP and the EG4 6000xp.

  • Both are cutting it close in their ability to start my pump, but I'm pretty certain either will work.
  • Both have a solid / common neutral, with the Samlex I just have to disable the automatic neutral to ground bonding.
  • The Samlex probably has better build quality and may last longer, and it's a low frequency inverter.
  • The 6000XP is a high frequency unit, but has a lot more features and it's cheaper (prices are very close, but the Samlex requires an additional $150 remote control unit).
  • The 6000XP will allow me to easily add some solar in the future, even just some portable panels for power outages
  • The power draw is better on the Samlex: 30W + inverter load or 5W completely idle, 6000XP is 50W. I think with my hot water heater electronics and my fail closed water main valve, I'll never see a zero load state so a fair comparison is just 30W (Samlex) vs 50W (EG4).
  • The Samlex is a bit smaller, and I definitely have space issues where I want to mount them.
    • Samlex: roughly 13"x17"
    • 6000XP: 18"x25.5"
 
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Just a note on the Samlex unit. They do not offer any remote monitoring, app, etc, nor do they intend to … yes, I called and asked. You mentioned that you want to tie into your “Home Assistant”. If you intend to connect a generator, note that the Magnum allows a 120v genset connection, whereas the Samlex requires a 240v only. Good luck with your choice!

Dave
 
Just a note on the Samlex unit. They do not offer any remote monitoring, app, etc, nor do they intend to … yes, I called and asked. You mentioned that you want to tie into your “Home Assistant”. If you intend to connect a generator, note that the Magnum allows a 120v genset connection, whereas the Samlex requires a 240v only. Good luck with your choice!

Dave
Thanks! Yeah I actually plan on trying to reverse engineer their communications between their lcd remote thing by putting my own microcontroller in the middle. There’s some discussion with a guy on this forum who’s under nda with them, but says it’s definitely possible. From the same user it also seems like they may be releasing something publicly soon and possibly some new larger inverters as well, so might hold off on buying anything for another month or two.
 
Thanks! Yeah I actually plan on trying to reverse engineer their communications between their lcd remote thing by putting my own microcontroller in the middle. There’s some discussion with a guy on this forum who’s under nda with them, but says it’s definitely possible. From the same user it also seems like they may be releasing something publicly soon and possibly some new larger inverters as well, so might hold off on buying anything for another month or two.

I Have the Samlex EVO 2224 with the EVO-RC-Plus Remote. The inverter/charger has a strong surge capability with low idle current and has been running 24/7 since May 2022 without loss of power output. Had to reboot the unit twice because the cooling fan kept running (should only run as needed). Other than the 2 reboots it has been rock solid the entire time and very happy with the unit. Running a critical load center box with 2 refrigerators and a freezer among other items without any issues.

The EVO switches from solar charged Lifepo4 battery bank to grid when the battery voltage gets low and then switches back to the battery bank when the solar panels and or the EVO charges the battery up to desired voltage.

The EVO-RC-Plus Remote gives the EVO a lot of programming power although as mentioned no Wi-Fi or Bluetooth. I would certainly buy another EVO based on their robust performance, but the lack of external communications has me looking at Victron in the future. Hopefully Samlex will release new EVO units with communications ability in the future before my next purchase. If they do it will be on my short list of inverter/chargers to purchase.
 
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I Have the Samlex EVO 2224 with the EVO-RC-Plus Remote. The inverter/charger has a strong surge capability with low idle current and has been running 24/7 since May 2022 without loss of power output. Had to reboot the unit twice because the cooling fan keep running (should only run as needed). Other than the 2 reboots it has been rock solid the entire time and very happy with the unit.

The EVO-RC-Plus Remote gives the EVO a lot of programming power although as mentioned no Wi-Fi or Bluetooth. I would certainly buy another EVO based on their robust performance, but the lack of external communications has me looking at Victron in the future. Hopefully Samlex will release new EVO units with communications ability in the future before my next purchase. If they do it will be on my short list of inverter/chargers to purchase.

My 2224 does this too:

"Had to reboot the unit twice because the cooling fan keep running (should only run as needed)."

Fans running at full speed but otherwise things are normal.

Have bugged Samlex tech support multiple times about this. They are aware of the problem but haven't been able to reproduce it.

Has existed across 4 firmware revisions.

Mildly irritating, but damn, full-speed cooling is loud. Also mildly irritating that it requires a full removal of battery power to clear (which means stuff in the house goes off for a few seconds).

I think I will enable SD card logging and see if I can capture any events that might help them.
 
My 2224 does this too:

"Had to reboot the unit twice because the cooling fan keep running (should only run as needed)."

Fans running at full speed but otherwise things are normal.

Have bugged Samlex tech support multiple times about this. They are aware of the problem but haven't been able to reproduce it.

Has existed across 4 firmware revisions.

Mildly irritating, but damn, full-speed cooling is loud. Also mildly irritating that it requires a full removal of battery power to clear (which means stuff in the house goes off for a few seconds).

I think I will enable SD card logging and see if I can capture any events that might help them.

Thanks for the information!

Good to know that it is common on the 2224 and and not just my unit. That makes the fix more likely. Hopefully Samlex can identify the issue and release a firmware that can fix it. Probably hard to find as it rarely occurs. Intermittent software glitches are the hardest to find. Used to program back in the day.

If the error can be logged to the SD card that should be great help to pin point the problem. I have not been around the EVO when the error occurred so don't know if any thing in particular caused the error.

Please keep me in the loop.
 
Does Samlex properly support LiFePO4 batteries? I noticed the manual only mentions lithium ion. I assume I just need to set the correct values in the battery settings?
 
Does Samlex properly support LiFePO4 batteries? I noticed the manual only mentions lithium ion. I assume I just need to set the correct values in the battery settings?

More or less. All the charge setpoints can be set manually. I never, ever use anybody's "preset profiles" as I usually don't agree with what somebody else thinks I should do. Always set them myself.

The only thing I haven't been able to adjust to the correct voltage (zero) is the temp. coefficient of charge. I think the lowest it would allow was 2 mV per 2V cell. Unless I haven't found the proper spot to make the adjustment.

I don't really care about this as my chances of ever switching to grid are very, very low.

It'll likely be addressed in a firmware release.
 
Does Samlex properly support LiFePO4 batteries? I noticed the manual only mentions lithium ion. I assume I just need to set the correct values in the battery settings?

As has been posted only Lithium and not Lifepo4 battery setting, but is really a mute point as @v_green57 describes it the EVO can be programmed with the EVO-RC-Plus Remote for essentially any charge settings desired.

As far as the temp. coefficient of charge I removed the battery temp sensor cable and set the battery type to 1=Lithium. I think the EVO now ignores the temp. coefficient of charge, but not positive of this.

I have attached a listing of my Charge Curve settings. Notice all the red page markers at the top of the EVO-RC-Plus Remote manual. There is a lot to absorb in this well written manual.

1722961151873.jpeg
 
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I had no idea this was going to be so complex. If I use a quality LFP BMS do I still have to worry about all of this or can I just set the min/max voltage cut offs?
 
I had no idea this was going to be so complex. If I use a quality LFP BMS do I still have to worry about all of this or can I just set the min/max voltage cut offs?

Suggest not using the BMS min/max voltage cut offs as it is usually considered a fail safe for the battery and not to be used on a regular basis if possible. Need to program the EVO min/max voltage charging so that it cuts off before the BMS.

In general the settings I posted could be used. With a little research in the EVO-RC-Plus Remote manual for the EVO-4248SP modify for 48 VDC settings listed. It really is not that difficult once you get into it. Just takes some time.
The charge Curve settings are displayed in sequence just like shown in the post above. One just has to modify the value and press enter and the next parameter setting is displayed to be viewed or modified. I turned off password protect so don't have to enter the password each time a parameter is changed.

Any Inverter/Charger that I have run across is going to need some research in the manual for programming.
 
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whereas the Samlex requires a 240v only
This is not quite correct... I have the EVO 4248.

The 4248 will accept a 120v input. However, the output is then limited. It's actually pretty cool... The 4248 has a built in auto-transformer that will take the 120v input on one leg and will still provide split-phase 240v output. Unfortunately, the output is limited. So if trying to start a well pump, you won't want to use this option.

As far as remote monitoring... I've setup a Shelly EM monitoring both legs of the output. You could just use the Shelly app to monitor. But, I also then pulled that data into my Home Assistant. I've debated putting another Shelly EM on the input side. But, haven't really seen the need...
 
I wanted to clarify that I heard back Genetry Solar again and they are actually selling these units again. He said he had one left at the moment, but I'm not quite ready to buy yet. I am going to keep them in the running as that is really solid looking machine.
 

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