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Quick mini split

Bluedog225

Bluedog225

Solar Wizard
Joined
Nov 18, 2019
Messages
4,795
Location
Texas
This was absolutely not part of my plan. But…the Midea Duo in my shipping container is not working. I’ll get up there first thing in the morning but I’m assuming it’s a dead.

That’s going to leave all my batteries to cook in the summer central Texas heat. I can get another Midea by the 24th from Costco. Or I can install a mini split. Leaning towards the mini split.

I had a plan to watch all the videos, buy the tools, and do this one day in a calm professional manner. But that’s not how it’s going to go down.

I’m planning to buy the Pioneer below, and the quick flush can. And go for it. It’s going to be hot and it’s going to suck.

I’ve read the installation manual. It does not say anything about rolling up the extra copper line. Instead it assumes I’m going to cut the line and flare it.

Here’s what I’m planning, what else do I need? No list of tools needed in the install manual.

Sorry to throw it out there like this but it is what it is.

@Q-Dog thanks for the tip on the pioneer flush deal. That will help a lot.

-Pioneer mini split
-Pioneer Kwik-E-vac line flusher
-flaring tool? Really need a recommendation on what brand. I’ll be learning on this install. Or use factory flares?
-Nylog Thread Sealant and Lubricant—yes?
-torque wrenches
-crows feet
-assorted Allen wrenches.
-assorted other stuff I’ve got (a garage full of tools) and I have a way to drill the hole in the shipping container side and the electrical stuff.

Many thanks for any advice.


IMG_3118.pngIMG_3119.png
 
Spray foam, or something to fill the hole through the wall from outside unit to indoor unit.

If you have a vac, do you really need a flush kit? All my units came with copper linesets clean and plugged.

... never mind, that was some king of e-vac flush kit ... if you might ever do this again, a cheap vac kit can be had for ~$100.

You can get some rather fancy flare kits but if you're careful, the cheapy ones do ok. Use some nyloq to lube the tool. Most hardware stores have them. A debur tool is nice. Don't let a bur ruin the flare.

Pipe cutter.

Concrete pad or something stable to mount the outside unit onto plus mounting hardware.

Wire, outlet box, breaker(some want quick pull disconnect), surge protector(research says the inverter boards are susceptible to surges), smurf tube, conduit, whatever else you're going to need to get the electrons there safely.

Something to get that 2.5", or larger hole through the metal container wall and normal hand tools.
 
Chicat said:
Thats a pretty small unit for the Texas heat and humidity, we did a Mr Cool mini split that is diy no special equipment needed
Click to expand...

Agreed, it’s not a large system. But it only has to cool half the shipping container. 8’ x 10’ insulated. I’m hoping it’s enough.

I’d love to do a Mr. cool. Plug and play. But the price difference is killing me.

IMG_5011.png
 
As an HVAC tech I see many of the DIY lineset installs leak, I would recommend the pioneer pulled down to a deep vacuum over Mr. Cool because over time the rubber gaskets seem to dry up and leak. Also coiling up the access lineset on a DIY system can cause the refridgerant oil to collect and starve the compressor of lubrication.

If your old mini split was also R-410a a lineset flush is not necessary but could help flush out any debris. I would recommend a manifold gauge set to measure your vacuum and ensure there is no leaks, they can be had relatively cheap.

The Pioneers generally come with factory flares but you will still need to flare the cut side.

Hope this helps, Good luck!
 
I would Get a cheaper unit , and get a vacuum pump and gauge kit and vacuum it down good and let it cook.


You may also need a 1/4 to 5/16 adapter. Sometimes they come with the mini split, sometimes they don't.
 
Bluedog225 said:
Agreed, it’s not a large system. But it only has to cool half the shipping container. 8’ x 10’ insulated. I’m hoping it’s enough.

I’d love to do a Mr. cool. Plug and play. But the price difference is killing me.

View attachment 313300
Click to expand...
That mini split from Costco is $1600 right now. I’m using it it to cool my container solar room (back 8ft). easily cools to 65 in 115 ambient temp all summer. It’s almost too much for such a small space. Runs for less than 10 min then cuts off for 10 min and keeps cycling all day because the room is so small. My Costco Midea stopped working after 6mo also which prompted the mini split purchase.

 
I have a really old Craftsman flare kit that worked great for my install. I went to my local HVAC supply for longer line sets (they also have solder on flare fittings if you don't want to do the flares). The new line sets were heavier wall than what came with the unit and I needed a couple of attempts to get the first one right. I needed to add some refrigerant because of the longer lines.

You want an outdoor service disconnect next to the unit and a whip to connect it to power. It does not need to be fused if the power supply is otherwise protected.

You will probably need an adapter for the service port if you want to use your guages or vacuum pump for servicing the unit.

Don't forget about a place for the outside unit ... you want to keep it out of the sun if possible, make it easy to get to for service, and somewhat protected from out of control lawn mowers. I used a concrete pad, but I can see a benefit to getting the unit up off the ground. If I were installing on a shipping container I would consider a way to hang the unit so it can go with the container when you decide to move it. I would probably weld up something, but all of the manufacturers offer some type of wall mount brackets for these units. They also offer rubber isolation feet to cut down on vibration if that matters to you.

Pioneer has just about anything you would need on their web site.

www.pioneerminisplit.com

Mini Split Accessories | Pioneer Mini Split

Enjoy making installation a breeze and your home more comfortable with help from our mini split accessories. Shop our quality mini split parts today!
www.pioneerminisplit.com www.pioneerminisplit.com
 
Last edited:
Q-Dog said:
I have a really old Craftsman flare kit that worked great for my install. I went to my local HVAC supply for longer line sets (they also have solder on flare fittings if you don't want to do the flares). The new line sets were heavier wall than what came with the unit and I needed a couple of attempts to get the first one right. I needed to add some refrigerant because of the longer lines.

You want an outdoor service disconnect next to the unit and a whip to connect it to power. It does not need to be fused if the power supply is otherwise protected.

You will probably need an adapter for the service port if you want to use your guages or vacuum pump for servicing the unit.

Don't forget about a place for the outside unit ... you want to keep it out of the sun if possible, make it easy to get to for service, and somewhat protected from out of control lawn mowers. I used a concrete pad, but I can see a benefit to getting the unit up off the ground. If I were installing on a shipping container I would consider a way to hang the unit so it can go with the container when you decide to move it. I would probably weld up something, but all of the manufacturers offer some type of wall mount brackets for these units. They also offer rubber isolation feet to cut down on vibration if that matters to you.

Pioneer has just about anything you would need on their web site.

www.pioneerminisplit.com

Mini Split Accessories | Pioneer Mini Split

Enjoy making installation a breeze and your home more comfortable with help from our mini split accessories. Shop our quality mini split parts today!
www.pioneerminisplit.com www.pioneerminisplit.com
Click to expand...
That kwik-e-vac lets me install without a vacuum pump, right?

Or go ahead and pull the vacuum.

I can probably handle either way but that little can seems pretty handy.
 
Bluedog225 said:
That kwik-e-vac lets me install without a vacuum pump, right?

Or go ahead and pull the vacuum.

I can probably handle either way but that little can seems pretty handy.
Click to expand...

I was following this thread because I may have to tackle something like this in the near future.

I read a bunch of reviews on the kwik-e-vac and it seems to be hit or miss. A few reviews talked about much better performance from pulling a vacuum. One guy had 2 units installed with the kwik-e-vac and one happened to leak due to forgetting to torque things correctly. He pulled a vacuum on that unit and it was outperforming the kwik-e-vac unit. He then went ahead and pulled a vacuum on the other unit and it's performance improved.

I try to be a proponent of the 80-20 rule, but sometimes taking the time to do it the longer way pays off in the end. Vacuum pumps seems pretty cheap. I've had some success with the "vevor" brand on Amazon, they seem to make pretty decent cheap tools.

Anyway, I'll be watching to see how this turns out whichever you choose. Good luck!
 
You may want to know what refrigerant a new unit is using. New equipment is changing to R454b or R32. R454b is presently hard to get and expensive.

If something goes wrong with install and you leak out R454b you may have to spend a lot of money to get it refilled.

Any units being sold with R410A is remaining inventory they can sell out of. No new R410A units are being manufactured.

Most units in U.S. will be R454b. Daikin equipment and their sub-brands (Goodman) are R32. Rest of world has been using R32. Most of Midea's are R32. Midea manufactures many of the rebranded mini-splits.

My recommendation at present is to go with R32.

Brand parent families:

AC brands associations copy.png
 
Last edited:
RCinFLA said:
You may want to know what refrigerant a new unit is using. New equipment is changing to R454b or R32. R454b is presently hard to get and expensive.

If something goes wrong with install and you leak out R454b you may have to spend a lot of money to get it refilled.

Any units being sold with R410A is remaining inventory they can sell out of. No new R410A units are being manufactured.

Most units in U.S. will be R454b. Daikin equipment and their sub-brands (Goodman) are R32. Rest of world has been using R32. Most of Midea's are R32. Midea manufactures many of the rebranded mini-splits.

My recommendation at present is to go with R32.

Brand parent families:

View attachment 313366
Click to expand...

That’s a great point. Thanks!
 
Outside of present R454b supply chain issue, primary differences between R454b and R32 is:

- R32 is single component. Not a blend of different refrigerants. This makes its liquid/gas phase change an abrupt transition giving good efficiency. Downside is high side pressure is slightly higher, theoretically being a little harder on compressor.

-R454b is a blend of 68.9% R32 and 31.1% R1234yf. It has a significant glide slope, meaning it has a gradual transition between liquid/gas states making it a little less efficient. Biggest issue is if there is a slow leak in a system it will leak out the two parts at different rates leaving corrupted mix percentages in system that will not work as expected if just a refrigerant top off its done. You have to replace all the refrigerant in system to be sure the mix percentage is correct.

Both have an A2L classification, meaning they are slightly flammable. I would not worry about this too much. All units should have a leak detector within inside air handler unit that will shut down compressor and turn on inside blower to dissipate concentration of any leaking refrigerant.
 
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@Bluedog225
When I was looking, the pioneer was what I was looking at. They seemed good
But I got a good deal for a different brand from my neighbor.
12k might be too big and end up short cycling.
 
Good point on the short cycle.

I’m up at the place now. I thought I had good news. It looked like the power strip I had the mini split plugged into tripped. I may have tripped last visit, but I didn’t think anything of it.

That’s great. I plugged it into a new power strip and it ran fine. I went back half an hour later and had a tripped again on the new power strip.

I realize running a mini split off the power strip is not ideal. I’m going to make a good quality 12 gauge short extension cord.

Though I worry about it tripping the power strip. Maybe a sign of something more significant like the compressor having issues. I thought this Midea was an inverter style with a gentle start up. Maybe it is. But it’s still tripping a power strip.

I don’t see risk in plugging it directly into the socket with an extension cord, as that’s probably how it should’ve been done initially. Except without the extension cord.

If there’s a real issue, the circuit breaker will trip. I’ll try and make this new extension cord and let it run for an hour or two before I leave to see how it does.
 
Bluedog225 said:
Good point on the short cycle.

I’m up at the place now. I thought I had good news. It looked like the power strip I had the mini split plugged into tripped. I may have tripped last visit, but I didn’t think anything of it.

That’s great. I plugged it into a new power strip and it ran fine. I went back half an hour later and had a tripped again on the new power strip.

I realize running a mini split off the power strip is not ideal. I’m going to make a good quality 12 gauge short extension cord.

Though I worry about it tripping the power strip. Maybe a sign of something more significant like the compressor having issues. I thought this Midea was an inverter style with a gentle start up. Maybe it is. But it’s still tripping a power strip.

I don’t see risk in plugging it directly into the socket with an extension cord, as that’s probably how it should’ve been done initially. Except without the extension cord.

If there’s a real issue, the circuit breaker will trip. I’ll try and make this new extension cord and let it run for an hour or two before I leave to see how it does.
Click to expand...
What does vrm data show for AC output current?
Can you see anything weird going on?
 
12kbtu is about the largest btu 120vac model offered with peak AC current from 120vac about 12-14 amps against a typical 15A breaker for most 120vac branch circuits.

I would not run it plugged into a power strip. You will likely feel the cord is warm and all bets are off for the usually poor-quality AC outlet sockets on a typical power strip. Most cheapo power strips use #16 gauge wire cords.

The greater the AC voltage drop, the more AC current the unit will draw.
 
RCinFLA said:
12kbtu is about the largest btu 120vac model offered with peak AC current from 120vac about 12-14 amps against a typical 15A breaker for most 120vac branch circuits.

I would not run it plugged into a power strip. You will likely feel the cord is warm and all bets are off for the usually poor-quality AC outlet sockets on a typical power strip. Most cheapo power strips use #16 gauge wire cords.

The greater the AC voltage drop, the more AC current the unit will draw.
Click to expand...

Agreed. It’s rated at 11.25 A.

No doubt using a power strip was not my best decision.

I replaced the power strip with a 5 foot long 15 amp cord. Short of wiring up a separate outlet for this thing, that’s as good as it’s going to get. I do plan to do some better electrical work in here when it gets cooler.

I got away with running this thing on the power strip all summer last summer. It’s been doing so well I lowered it from 78° down to 74°. That added to the stress and heat.

I’m going to give it an hour and see how it does. Maybe two.

I’m going to proceed the mini split plan anyway. I’ll have that stuff ready to go. Though if this buys me some time that would be nice.

You guys are great. Thanks.
 
Bluedog225 said:
-Nylog Thread Sealant and Lubricant—yes?
Click to expand...
I'm not an expert and have only installed one minisplit, so take this for what it's worth. But based on my research (I have seen conflicting info though) and from some I follow that has installed hundreds of minsplits, Nylog should only be applied to the flare, and not the threads.

And to me it make sense for several reasons:

- If applied to the threads, this will change the torque required and if you follow the mfg spec, then you will overtighten the connection and could damage the flare, leading to leaks.

""Dry torque" refers to the tightening of fasteners with no lubrication on the threads, while "wet torque" refers to tightening with lubrication. Lubrication reduces friction, meaning a lower torque value is needed to achieve the same clamping force compared to a dry application. For example, a lubricated bolt may require 25% less torque than a dry bolt for the same clamping force. "

- In a flared connection, the threads are not a sealing surface, the flare face is. These are not like tapered plumbing threads that are part of the sealing.

- There's no need to lubricate the threads, especially on a new install. If everything is properly aligned, you should be able to flick the nut with one finger and momentum will carry it most of the way down.

Many (all?) manufacturers will void the warranty if Nylog is used. I paid less than $400 for my minisplit, so I wasn't worried about it and used Nylog on the flare face only. Based on the above, you gain nothing by using it on the threads and risk damage to the flare.

I would get a vacuum pump and gauges as well as a digital micron gauge, even if you use the Kwik-E-vac line flusher. The Kwik-E-vac line flusher is just to purge anything out of the lines, it does nothing to ensure a leak tight system.
The micron gauge because the dial gauges will only show a gross leak and will not pick up a small leak.

I work on semiconductor manufacturing equipment that uses high vacuum for processing so I'm very familiar with that aspect of things. It doesn't take much to get a small leak, and if you have one, your minisplit may work fine for weeks or months, but when we want it to last for years, you want it as close to perfect as you can get it... My system is R454b, and right now a tank of that costs more than I paid for my minisplit - I don't want to lose any.

Ideally you would want to do a nitrogen pressure test as well. At work we use some very nasty gases for processing. Some will kill you in seconds if you breath it in, another will spontaneously combust (pyrophoric) if exposed to atmosphere. Many years ago, our standard procedure was to only do a leak check on those gas lines. While installing a new piece of equipment one of our very meticulous, very experienced techs leak checked the gas lines (built by our subcontractor) and they all passed. After the hazardous gases were turned on, there was a fire because the pyrophoric gas found its way out... Fingers were pointed, customer said our tech must have screwed up or skipped the leak check. We use a different type of connection with metal gaskets. After investigating, we found doublestacked gaskets at the leak point. We duplicated the doublestack situation on new lines and did a leak check - it passed again... Ever since this even we also do a pressure decay test. The double stack will fail this test. So, long story short, even doing a vacuum leak test may not catch everything and for the best possible connection you should also do a pressure test. In heating mode these things can get up to 600psi - the gas lines we use at work only see up to 80psi and are stainless steel.

I should have pressure tested, but skipped it because it was getting hot, I was in a hurry, and I didn't want to spend the money on a nitrogen setup. I plan to install a couple more systems and I'll be getting a N2 setup before I do. I heard someone had some oxygen tanks laying around and was able to exchange one for a nitrogen bottle at their local gas supply house so it didn't cost much compared to buying a new N2 bottle. I've seen used O2 tanks on Facebook Marketplace pretty cheap, so I'll go that route. Regulator shouldn't be too expensive either.
 
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