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diy solar

Quoted US$34,000 for a DIFM 3.6kW system with battery backup

PatBlack

Genius in Irrelevant Topics
Joined
Sep 21, 2019
Messages
49
Hi Solar people, the other side of the spectrum from DIY solar is DIFM solar, Do It For Me. I continue to wonder where along that spectrum I want to be. The grid goes down at least 10 times every year. When it d=goes down it's several hours at least. Rural living is great but the grid has no redundancy here. I am thankful for what power it does provide!

I recently got a US$34,000 quote from a local installer for a grid tie system with batteries that they claim will eliminate the kWh part of my electric bill. But they don't really give me enough information to know what all they would install. They claim a payback period of 14 years. This is all the equipment info they provided in the quote:

Panels 12 x Canadian Solar - CS3K-P-300 (300W) at 180° (S) (Tilt of 30°)
Inverter 1 x Outback Power - Radian GS 8048 (FP Radian)
Outback Mate3s System Display/Communications
Rack 2 x UniRac - SM Tilt-Leg
Mount Type Ground
Outback Integrated Battery Rack
OutBack EnergyCell PLR Series Batteries (Nothing in the quote about battery bank capacity!)

There are currently two separate electric meters on the property that would get combined into one. There are some 100+ foot runs and trenching involved due to site constraints.

Between a grant and the tax credit I would be paying 49% out of pocket.

I get that battery banks can be expensive. The panels and the outback stuff is probably around $10K. So, $24K for a battery bank, a ground mount, installation, permitting, and all the wiring and disconnects? Quotes like this make me wonder what kind of DIY project I could reasonably do on my own.

So what would be a feasible DIY alternative? Can I put in an array myself, get my electrician to put in a critical loads panel, an inverter and battery bank, and a manual transfer switch to take most everything off grid most of the time but not do an official grid-tie system?
 
PatBlack

Assembling a ground mounted array of modules requires basic construction skills, like squaring an area, digging holes, leveling poles, pour concrete in the holes, basic assembling of parts and bolting everything together..... the electrical is more touchy, but if you have an electrician to work with he can cover the most complicated of the tasks.

It is hard for me to evaluate the difficulty level properly since I have spent my entire adult life in some form of construction.

I install solar for living and do a lot of battery based systems, I have been using the Sol-Ark inverter since April of this year and now have 4 different installs completed with excellent success on that product.....I have some experience with the Radian inverter but I would pick the Sol-Ark over any of the others out there..... and yes you can set it to not sell back, but the interconnection process is normally not all that bad and you should be able to do it yourself.

Their prices do not seem out of line per your description.

Please let me know if you have more questions
 
if you are only looking for outage backup, I believe a generator would be much cheaper
 
Thanks Elmer, I have built 5000 sq ft of greenhouses, lots of steel bows and purlins, with pier footers, so I do feel comfortable building a solar array. My electrician has never done any solar but he can read a schematic! I have been intrigued by the Sol-Ark inverter and mentioned it to the solar installer, but he had not looked into that product. I'll have to research if the Outback Radian can also be set to not sell back. I'm encouraged you think I might even be able to do most of the interconnection work!

PatBlack

Assembling a ground mounted array of modules requires basic construction skills, like squaring an area, digging holes, leveling poles, pour concrete in the holes, basic assembling of parts and bolting everything together..... the electrical is more touchy, but if you have an electrician to work with he can cover the most complicated of the tasks.

It is hard for me to evaluate the difficulty level properly since I have spent my entire adult life in some form of construction.

I install solar for living and do a lot of battery based systems, I have been using the Sol-Ark inverter since April of this year and now have 4 different installs completed with excellent success on that product.....I have some experience with the Radian inverter but I would pick the Sol-Ark over any of the others out there..... and yes you can set it to not sell back, but the interconnection process is normally not all that bad and you should be able to do it yourself.

Their prices do not seem out of line per your description.

Please let me know if you have more questions
 
@danphillips Yes I currently do use a honda 4000 watt generator. It can only power one building at a time. And I have to be around to start it up. I've dragged it 300 yards through mud and slush at 2am during a blizzard to keep a building from freezing. That lead me to consider other options!

if you are only looking for outage backup, I believe a generator would be much cheaper
 
I hate UniRac, burned many with shat stainless bolts in aluminum. for ground mount I'd only go Iron Ridge. I love Outback Radian's great warranty Outbacks battery warrantys SUCK. I dont see anything in the specs with what would put the solar into the batt, DC or AC connected panels? It looks like those guys are just selling the outback prewired unit. Can look up prices at wholesalesolar.com and renvu.com

I think the Outback Skybox would be a better unit for you. it's the evolution of the Radian's
 
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Thanks Elmer, I have built 5000 sq ft of greenhouses, lots of steel bows and purlins, with pier footers, so I do feel comfortable building a solar array. My electrician has never done any solar but he can read a schematic! I have been intrigued by the Sol-Ark inverter and mentioned it to the solar installer, but he had not looked into that product. I'll have to research if the Outback Radian can also be set to not sell back. I'm encouraged you think I might even be able to do most of the interconnection work!
PatBlack
As for the electrician, dealing with the DC voltage will be the main difference from what he is familiar with and it definitely demands more respect due to how much more it will hurt if you touch the open conductors....but that is a matter of using common sense and caution.

Yes the Radian can be set to not sell, but the Sol-Ark features the extra option to sell to home only, ( meaning you install a set of CTs between the Utility's meter base and your entire onsite Grid ) this allows the inverter to monitor your entire power usage for the whole property in real time while the grid is up and control the backfeed output to all non-critical loadcenters on the property without backfeeding to the Utility Grid....When the grid fails the system will then only feed the critical loads.....The Sol-Ark is an 8K output and is the only unit on the market with this feature (that I am aware of ), it will also give you a lot of room to expand beyond your original install.

Someone commented on the Outback Skybox, it looks like that would be a good option as well I just do not have any experience with it, but as an installer who has worked with Outback's off-grid inverters for 5+ yrs. I prefer working with a small manufacturer like Sol-Ark before working with a large conglomerate like Alpha, (aka Outback's parent company ) due to the rate at which they improve and upgrade their software and engineering practices.

You are welcome to reach out to me in person I might even have someone who is interested in helping you with your interconnection agreement and design ( a friend of mine who is a retired solar business owner ) he floated the idea of something like this just a week ago.
 
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I know a solar installer in Taos. He's good and resonable. PM me if you want his contact info.
 
Thanks @Picasso for your input. I didn't know about the Skybox product. I think with a delay start on one piece of equipment I might be able to run with a 5kW inverter instead of the 8kW Inverter in the Radian. Or do you know if they make a Skybox with 8kW inverter? I willl look at Iron Ridge with their stronger extrusion shape as wind and snow loads is a major consideration in the high desert. I didn't understand " UniRac, burned many with shat stainless bolts in aluminum," if you have a chance could you elaborate?

I hate UniRac, burned many with shat stainless bolts in aluminum. for ground mount I'd only go Iron Ridge. I love Outback Radian's great warranty Outbacks battery warrantys SUCK. I dont see anything in the specs with what would put the solar into the batt, DC or AC connected panels? It looks like those guys are just selling the outback prewired unit. Can look up prices at wholesalesolar.com and renvu.com

I think the Outback Skybox would be a better unit for you. it's the evolution of the Radian's
 
UniRac is the cheap end of the solar world. It used a cheap grade bolt ended up bonding to the retaining nutts for mounting panels. AKA if it was installed with a unirac product chances are your never unbolting it again. Reddit/r/solar is a GREAT place to see what installers like and dont like when people ask for reviews of solar quotes.

The skybox was to come in 5/8kw not sure what happened with the 8kw unit. Sol-Ark looks like it would be cheaper if your wanting a whole house backup system. You can parallel the Skybox, Outback is a little on the $$$ side but I've been happy with them I just wont use the over priced re-branded batts from them.
 
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Victron has the ability to monitor inbound power and Self-Consume using their ESS system. They allow for Grid tie in tandem and use phase shifting to disable grid tie inverters. Batteries can be added or not but is a major part of the design consideration. Power can be added at the inverter critical load side, main breaker panel or even directly to the batteries via DC. It can also charge from the grid during off peak times and discharge during peak. Very customizable but somewhat pricey as well.

EDIT: I am not affiliated with Victron or any other company

 
There is considerable time and work in a solar installation. The people are trying to make a living, so they need to profit. All installed systems seem expensive from a DIY point of view.

I did mine myself. If you do some research you can find the information you need to know how to do it. Local permits can be an issue if you are in an area that wants to regulate everything to the nth level. There are several companies that are suppliers for self installed systems. These companies can offer value in your planning.
 
For a few outages per year a good size propane backup genset would be much cheaper and simpler. Mine is hooked to a 1000 gal tank and comes on automatically.
 
Most systems are expensive from a customer point of view..... the install houses need to make a living but im afraid they charge too much.

That being said, i am an installer and it is the truth. I have worked for quite a few local companies and run thier installs for peanuts while the range rover driving sales team roll in to collect the final payments......

There might be 16k worth of gear, 1200 worth of electrical bos, 1200 concrete and trenching, the rest is profit. The crew rarely will see more than 600 to 1000 each for something like that, maybe 4 persons. Sales amd the office and easily 20 percent markup on retail cost of equipment and you have the other side of the failure to adopot solar equasion...

I have been fighting this for decades, it is killing the industry. The days are long gone where modules cost 3$/w and systems under 4kW 5$/Watt.... most systems we are installing are 8-12kW and a canadian solar module is about 200$ not 550-600$............... the price never came down, they are still scalping as if it never happened.

Most of our installs are diy assistance a.d we work to lower cost. Sorry, if me and our men are out to you for 4-5 days, its usually 300/day for the guys so about 4-5k install. Roof mount systems about 8-9kW with 445-800Ah battery, made of the good stuff throughout and integrated by integrators, not electricians. ;)

You and two friends can do it. I promise. Its a roller coaster ride emotionally, but keep laying parts until its done and save half and get better equipment to boot. Have an electrician tie it in.

Usually a homeowner can assume "builder" status and do all but the connection and wiring, depends on the electrician. If you can steer your electrician a.d assure them its not voodoo, you will be fine.
 
I once got a 124kW install. I made 4 companies fight for our purchase of 420 and some odd modules, SolarWorld. The big dealer, free shipping and electrical parts distributors sales guy was going to take a cool 15 thousand dollars off the top for me buying from him...... in commission on the sale of just modules....

Thats way more than i got paid to design it and lead the install and i sold the system!!!

Luckily Innovateus Solar out of Indianna and Altestore took way better care of us.
 
Hi Solar people, the other side of the spectrum from DIY solar is DIFM solar, Do It For Me. I continue to wonder where along that spectrum I want to be. The grid goes down at least 10 times every year. When it d=goes down it's several hours at least. Rural living is great but the grid has no redundancy here. I am thankful for what power it does provide!

I recently got a US$34,000 quote from a local installer for a grid tie system with batteries that they claim will eliminate the kWh part of my electric bill. But they don't really give me enough information to know what all they would install. They claim a payback period of 14 years. This is all the equipment info they provided in the quote:

Panels 12 x Canadian Solar - CS3K-P-300 (300W) at 180° (S) (Tilt of 30°)
Inverter 1 x Outback Power - Radian GS 8048 (FP Radian)
Outback Mate3s System Display/Communications
Rack 2 x UniRac - SM Tilt-Leg
Mount Type Ground
Outback Integrated Battery Rack
OutBack EnergyCell PLR Series Batteries (Nothing in the quote about battery bank capacity!)

There are currently two separate electric meters on the property that would get combined into one. There are some 100+ foot runs and trenching involved due to site constraints.

Between a grant and the tax credit I would be paying 49% out of pocket.

I get that battery banks can be expensive. The panels and the outback stuff is probably around $10K. So, $24K for a battery bank, a ground mount, installation, permitting, and all the wiring and disconnects? Quotes like this make me wonder what kind of DIY project I could reasonably do on my own.

So what would be a feasible DIY alternative? Can I put in an array myself, get my electrician to put in a critical loads panel, an inverter and battery bank, and a manual transfer switch to take most everything off grid most of the time but not do an official grid-tie system?

I got mine installed for €20,000 euros, full kit here https://air-water.ie/5kw-30kw-solar-systems-europe

Regards
Stephen
 
Hi Solar people, the other side of the spectrum from DIY solar is DIFM solar, Do It For Me. I continue to wonder where along that spectrum I want to be. The grid goes down at least 10 times every year. When it d=goes down it's several hours at least. Rural living is great but the grid has no redundancy here. I am thankful for what power it does provide!

I recently got a US$34,000 quote from a local installer for a grid tie system with batteries that they claim will eliminate the kWh part of my electric bill. But they don't really give me enough information to know what all they would install. They claim a payback period of 14 years. This is all the equipment info they provided in the quote:

Panels 12 x Canadian Solar - CS3K-P-300 (300W) at 180° (S) (Tilt of 30°)
Inverter 1 x Outback Power - Radian GS 8048 (FP Radian)
Outback Mate3s System Display/Communications
Rack 2 x UniRac - SM Tilt-Leg
Mount Type Ground
Outback Integrated Battery Rack
OutBack EnergyCell PLR Series Batteries (Nothing in the quote about battery bank capacity!)

There are currently two separate electric meters on the property that would get combined into one. There are some 100+ foot runs and trenching involved due to site constraints.

Between a grant and the tax credit I would be paying 49% out of pocket.

I get that battery banks can be expensive. The panels and the outback stuff is probably around $10K. So, $24K for a battery bank, a ground mount, installation, permitting, and all the wiring and disconnects? Quotes like this make me wonder what kind of DIY project I could reasonably do on my own.

So what would be a feasible DIY alternative? Can I put in an array myself, get my electrician to put in a critical loads panel, an inverter and battery bank, and a manual transfer switch to take most everything off grid most of the time but not do an official grid-tie system?

I got mine installed for €20,000 euros, full kit here https://air-water.ie/5kw-30kw-solar-systems-europe

Regards
Stephen
 
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