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R410 phaseout

The current move is to r32 or r454b i think depending on brands.

Fyi... r410 is a blend of r32 and r125... so... r32 is a pure refrigerant, but still a potent greenhouse gas
R 454b is a tad better... but still a blend, and still a greenhouse gas, so yes, it will also get phased out.

If co2 wasnt so high pressure, it likely would be the choice, and may one day end up being all that is legal...

Propane/r290 is just too flammable to be allowed in homes in the hvac quantities needed to cool.

R600/butane mix is more common in dorm fridges etc, but, wrong temp glide for hvac...
Does R32 work at lower pressures like R22?

Will they ever move back to lower pressure gasses so the coils will live a little longer?
 
Does R32 work at lower pressures like R22?

Will they ever move back to lower pressure gasses so the coils will live a little longer?
No.
And unlikely.
The current trend is making infrastructure to use r700...

CO2...
So a boiling pressure around 2000...
750 working pressure.
Stainless steel coils and lines...

And it will STILL have a GWP of 1...
Which is better than 32 which is around 350...
Idk.
Water is around 400, so, whats the point?
 
That is a bit of overstatement. R32 is the current choice in Europe for mini-splits.
Monoblocks(water coolers/heaters) and ”penguin” floor standing models are R32 or R290.

There is at least one propane minisplit tho: https://www.klimaworld.com/mwdownloads/download/link/id/58655


Thare are more


 
No.
And unlikely.
The current trend is making infrastructure to use r700...

CO2...
So a boiling pressure around 2000...
750 working pressure.
Stainless steel coils and lines...

And it will STILL have a GWP of 1...
Which is better than 32 which is around 350...
Idk.
Water is around 400, so, whats the point?
Wow. Good to know. Thanks..
 
The ice caps are melting too which is making the sea level increase, but when I freeze water it expands and then when I thaw it, it contracts again.... don't make sense to this simple Farmers boy.
 
The ice caps are melting too which is making the sea level increase, but when I freeze water it expands and then when I thaw it, it contracts again.... don't make sense to this simple Farmers boy.
Ice in the ocean wont affect the sea level.
It is the ice that is on land that when it melts and drains into the ocea the problem hits...
 
The ice caps are melting too which is making the sea level increase, but when I freeze water it expands and then when I thaw it, it contracts again.... don't make sense to this simple Farmers boy.
I know you were being silly, but it's weird that the warming of the ocean causes it to expand, and contributes measurably to sea level rise. Go figure.
 
This is the way it will go, I mentioned it in this thread.

CO2 (R744) was tried in the mobile HVAC side, it didn't work out. High pressure causes early failures, both compressors and leaks. R290 is more efficient and R744 suffers from higher efficiency loss as temps rise. I am quite certain R290 will be the choice for a monoblock heat pump. For air to air heat pumps, it will be R32 in the near term but there needs to be a replacement for it down the road. It will be interesting to see what happens with air to air heat pumps.

Plenty of links shared in that thread if someone wants to read up on future HVAC refrigerants.
 
Maybe there is a chance in a not too far future, where we can get rid of all these weird refrigerants and could replace them with Ionocaloric cooling systems.

 
Maybe there is a chance in a not too far future, where we can get rid of all these weird refrigerants and could replace them with Ionocaloric cooling systems.

What is the COP? Not mentioned of course.

If it is below 1, it will take building some new coal plants.
 
Main selection factors for refrigerant are:
- efficiency, amount of btu's exchanged during liquid to gas transition temperature and pressure for this transition required by compressor.
- Toxicity if system springs a leak.
- Flammability if system springs a leak. (propane is not good)
- Ozone depletion effect
- Globe Warming potential (compared to carbon dioxide emissions)

R-410A has an ozone depletion potential (ODP) of zero, meaning it does not deplete the ozone layer. R-410A does not contribute to ozone depletion because it only contains fluorine, unlike older refrigerants like R22 and R12 that contain chlorine or bromine. Fluorine is toxic when broken down, like when brazing copper tubing.

R410a is a mixture of 50% R32 and 50% R125 to get its flammability reduced.

Most refrigerant combo mixtures have a 'glide' slope which means the mixture creates a slight temp range for the transitioning between liquid and gas, which is undesirable as it reduces btu efficiency a bit.

R410a has a very slight glide of less that 1 deg F.
R454b has a glide of about 1.5 degs F. R-454B is a blend of R-32 and R-1234yf.
R32 has zero glide slope.

R-410A has a global warming potential (GWP) of 2,088, which means it is equivalent to 2,088 times the effect of equal weight of carbon dioxide.

R454b has a global warming potential (GWP) of 466 and zero ozone depletion effect. R454b is mildly flammable with an A2L rating

R32 has global warming potential (GWP) of 676 and zero ozone depletion effect. R32 is mildly flammable with an A2L rating. R32 high side compressor pressure is slightly greater than R410a but is net slightly higher efficiency than R410a.

R290 (propane) has global warming potential (GWP) of 3 and zero ozone depletion effect. R290 is highly flammable and has an A3 flammability rating. Too many lawyers in U.S. for manufacturers to risk using highly flammable R290 in U.S.

In U.S. A2L, slightly flammable rated refrigerant systems will have a gas sensor to detect refrigerant leaks that will shut down compressor and turn on air handler blower to disburse any leaking refrigerant, with a message on thermostat to immediately call for service.

For comparison, methane (natural gas and cattle farts) GWP is around 28 times that of carbon dioxide. New regulations for GWP will likely end up around <800, knocking out R410a but allowing R32 to squeak by.

In general, in U.S., conventional split, ducted systems will be dominantly R454b. Mini-splits R32

By manufacturer:

Trane (American Standard) - R454a
Lennox - R454a, R32 for contracted mini-split units.
Carrier (Bryant) - R454b
Rheem (Ruud) - likely R454b
Dalkin (Goodman, Amana) - R32
York - R454b

My personal preference is R32 which avoids mixture glide resulting is slightly greater efficiency.
 
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If the COP would be below 1 I would worry about the fundamental principles of physics ;)
Many air source heat pumps will have a COP below 1 in extremely cold weather. It takes more energy to extract one Kw of heat from the air than what is put into the area heated plus the defrost cycle will consume heat from the heated space.

When COP is below 1.5, it is probably more efficient to simply run electric resistance as there is not air movement (draft).
 
Many air source heat pumps will have a COP below 1 in extremely cold weather. It takes more energy to extract one Kw of heat from the air than what is put into the area heated plus the defrost cycle will consume heat from the heated space.
I never expected that. I thought it would never go below what a resistance heating can provide - learned something new! Thanks!
When COP is below 1.5, it is probably more efficient to simply run electric resistance as there is not air movement (draft).
 
If the COP would be below 1 I would worry about the fundamental principles of physics ;)
No fundamental principles of physics being broken for a CoP less than 1.

BTU's transferred translates to refrigerant mass flow (for given refrigerant type). Higher compression ratio means less refrigerant mass flow unless compressor increases its rpm's. This costs more electrical power which reduces CoP.

CoP drops as the temp between inside and outside gets greater. This raises compressor high side to low side refrigerant pressures. This means higher compression ratio by compressor and reduced mass flow rate of refrigerant unless more pumping capacity is added by increasing compressor rpm's.

Hyper-heat units just run up their VFD compressor rpm's up for cold outside temps. Most common, non-hyper heat units limit their inverter output frequency to about 75 Hz which is about 4,500 rpm's. Hyper-heat units go up to 144 Hz which is about 8600 rpm, with compressor sounding like a jet engine. The compressor must be designed and built to take the higher rpm's and survive for a reasonable amount of time.

In many northern locations, you only need the hyper-heat super-speed function for a few days each winter.
 
Soooo... Is the new gen of heat pumps going to suck for a bit until the kinks are worked out?
So far i know.
The split airco unit in the eu .
Go longer on r32 gas .
Its not save to go for full propane .
Than again r32 and of life in the EU is about 2030/2035 .
It can be that only split airco , portable airco and mono block stay on r32 for that time pas 2035 .

All other systeems like a car and heatpomps systeem go to propaangas.
 
Main selection factors for refrigerant are:
- efficiency, amount of btu's exchanged during liquid to gas transition temperature and pressure for this transition required by compressor.
- Toxicity if system springs a leak.
- Flammability if system springs a leak. (propane is not good)
- Ozone depletion effect
- Globe Warming potential (compared to carbon dioxide emissions)

R-410A has an ozone depletion potential (ODP) of zero, meaning it does not deplete the ozone layer. R-410A does not contribute to ozone depletion because it only contains fluorine, unlike older refrigerants like R22 and R12 that contain chlorine or bromine. Fluorine is toxic when broken down, like when brazing copper tubing.

R410a is a mixture of 50% R32 and 50% R125 to get its flammability reduced.

Most refrigerant combo mixtures have a 'glide' slope which means the mixture creates a slight temp range for the transitioning between liquid and gas, which is undesirable as it reduces btu efficiency a bit.

R410a has a very slight glide of less that 1 deg F.
R454b has a glide of about 1.5 degs F. R-454B is a blend of R-32 and R-1234yf.
R32 has zero glide slope.

R-410A has a global warming potential (GWP) of 2,088, which means it is equivalent to 2,088 times the effect of equal weight of carbon dioxide.

R454b has a global warming potential (GWP) of 466 and zero ozone depletion effect. R454b is mildly flammable with an A2L rating

R32 has global warming potential (GWP) of 676 and zero ozone depletion effect. R32 is mildly flammable with an A2L rating. R32 high side compressor pressure is slightly greater than R410a but is net slightly higher efficiency than R410a.

R290 (propane) has global warming potential (GWP) of 3 and zero ozone depletion effect. R290 is highly flammable and has an A3 flammability rating. Too many lawyers in U.S. for manufacturers to risk using highly flammable R290 in U.S.

In U.S. A2L, slightly flammable rated refrigerant systems will have a gas sensor to detect refrigerant leaks that will shut down compressor and turn on air handler blower to disburse any leaking refrigerant, with a message on thermostat to immediately call for service.

For comparison, methane (natural gas and cattle farts) GWP is around 28 times that of carbon dioxide. New regulations for GWP will likely end up around <800, knocking out R410a but allowing R32 to squeak by.

In general, in U.S., conventional split, ducted systems will be dominantly R454b. Mini-splits R32

By manufacturer:

Trane (American Standard) - R454a
Lennox - R454a, R32 for contracted mini-split units.
Carrier (Bryant) - R454b
Rheem (Ruud) - likely R454b
Dalkin (Goodman, Amana) - R32
York - R454b

My personal preference is R32 which avoids mixture glide resulting is slightly greater efficiency.
Why do you have GWP all over your posting?

Haven't you got the memo that saying global warming is frown upon and make you a climate denier?

The reason you can not say global warming because when there's no ice, ah hah! climate change is getting really bad, we're burning up alive.
When the ice return, ah hah! You're a climate denier, it's just a temporary change, it constantly changes, a little ice doesn't mean we're wrong.

I thought these refrigerants destroy the ozone, not "climate changing" the planet and only CO2 causes climate change. When people like Bill Gates talk about climate change, they refer to CO2.

Destroying the ozone is not the same as changing climate. One causes the climate to change, the other causes UV rays to penetrate the surface and destroy DNA.

Is the propaganda game so overwhelming, so well funded that it's no longer necessary to be consistent or making sense?

Remember the covidCON when vaccinated people aren't protected but it's important they're vaccinated so they're protected. They aren't protected unless the unvaccinated take the vaxx. Don't bother to take your umbrella, it doesn't keep you dry unless everyone also use an umbrella.

I'm genuinely perplexed.
 
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Why do you have GWP all over your posting?

Haven't you got the memo that saying global warming is frown upon and make you a climate denier.

I thought these refrigerants destroy the ozone, not "climate changing" the planet and only CO2 causes climate change. When people like Bill Gates talk about climate change, they refer to CO2.

Destroying the ozone is not the same as changing climate. One causes the climate to change, the other causes UV rays to penetrate the surface and destroy DNA.

I'm genuinely perplexed.
Its how it setup today.
If you go for a f-gassen license in the Europa.
This is what you gone learn what the gas do with gwp.

Its stupid but this is how its done.
Brainwash.
 
I thought these refrigerants destroy the ozone, not "climate changing" the planet and only CO2 causes climate change.
It can’t be both? In the quest to reduce ozone-destroying chemicals we’re discovering that the replacements also enhance global warming, just like CO2.
Hey, look, it also turns out that in the quest for low ODP, low GWP refrigerants we’re (re)discovering flammable and toxic ones as well (early refrigerators, used ammonia, but people would wake up dead). And the quest continues.
I'm genuinely perplexed.
No you’re not. 5 minutes with My Good Friend Google found the above. Well, 5 seconds for https://www.google.com/search?q=gwp+versus+odp+wiki
And the rest to read a few of the articles.
 

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