(Really) Off-Grid EVAL with the Sol-Ark 5K - True off-grid is the ONLY place to test Off-Grid ability. (or stay on the grid).

[Outpost_51]

Lots of good discussion here already and great description of off grid @Outpost_51.
I'm surprised no one has asked what the wire gauge is from batteries to invertor. I'd assume it's correct but could see some of these 'kits' out there cutting costs wherever possible.
If you decide to swap inverters you should look at Schneider and also recommend your neighbor do the same.
Echoing what others have already stated. Grundfos pumps, inrush clamper with AC/DC.

I've been running a 'cheap' tp6048 inverter semi off grid for a few months, it has no issues starting my goulds 1hp deep well pump sitting around 275' but the lights flicker when my washer agitates.

My next system will be truly off grid, when I find land. I've already decided I'll be running at least 1 Schneider XW Pro and a grundfos pump. I know I'll have zero issues running table saws, chop saws, compressors, electric dryers or just about anything else I want.

We will be looking into the Schnieder,- my neighbor is going to need a little more power and storage than I do.

 

[ChrisG]

We will be looking into the Schnieder,- my neighbor is going to need a little power and storage than I do.

Our cabin has a 600ft deep 240v well pump that I have yet to tie into any inverter. If a storm rolls in where we wouldn't have grid power for a few days, we have have a tub bladder we fill up with a hand pump for water if needed. The 120v circuits are on an inverter/charger battery backup. Well is 35amp (8400w) surge and 7amp (1680w) run. I think the XWPro is the best option to run that and everything else. Also considering two Victron 5ks or two 10ks to have the extra punch.

 

[Hedges]

The biggest issue I see right now, basically is just the uncertainty of what to expect when I get something else with a motor, induction type or otherwise, especially if it's a single phase...as from this experience I pretty much know what to expect, (now). I really do want a washing machine - but now....am I looking at a $750 auto-transformer to have a $400 washer, or $1000 washer to omit a $750 auto-transformer...? so it's coin toss. but I AM leaning towards the auto-transformer because I will then have the benefit of an overall balanced load on the inverter.

The bottom line for me is, as a "true" and completely off-grid setup with the Sol-Ark Inverter, (because it's transformer-less) - it's very important to have a balanced load "even without" an issue with a single phase induction motor. But as a matter of being finicky, I've already done that in my distribution panel for the most part, and I'm very aware of what's running and when.

See if SolArk can be rewired with the two 120V phases in parallel (polarity swapped as per 120/208Y instructions.)
If that works you can have 120V appliances and tools.

Do you have any need for 240V, other than that new pump? And you already have a 120V version anyway.

 

[Mattb4]

...
I'm surprised no one has asked what the wire gauge is from batteries to invertor. I'd assume it's correct but could see some of these 'kits' out there cutting costs wherever possible.
...

I asked for the entire setup he had. I would not assume it is correct.

 

[Mattb4]

It would have been nice, but the pump wasn't switchable to 240v. I had ordered one from Lowe's (2wks ago) and picked it up today.

and for the surge on one leg...(that single phase pump) yes it's heavy. but I'm only seeing it right around 12-15 amps --- but the mystery is mostly in the inconsistency of the struggle to start. again (for reference) there's a 15amp (quick throw) breaker on the generator that never trips, and when the pump starts when I plug it in the the generator directly and it runs fine. but when I plug the pump into an outlet on solar ( I have one in the power house by the inverter) even with nothing at all running..... the pump won't start....it moans and groans and barely turns....wants to overheat. ( does NOT throw the 15A circuit breaker for the outlet) and I have to quit before something gets ugly.

I did pick up the new pump today that I ordered almost 2 weeks ago. it's a superior, 1/2hp 240V. It specs at 8amp surge and 4amp constant. I just did a test connect when I got it home and it works absolutely fine on solar. I can't really read the surge, it starts right up and runs great. levels off right at 4.4 amps. I'll fiddle with it again tomorrow and see if I can read the surge better. But I'm pretty sure I'm going to put it in service for the temporary water system while I build the water house and manifold for our water sources.

The biggest issue I see right now, basically is just the uncertainty of what to expect when I get something else with a motor, induction type or otherwise, especially if it's a single phase...as from this experience I pretty much know what to expect, (now). I really do want a washing machine - but now....am I looking at a $750 auto-transformer to have a $400 washer, or $1000 washer to omit a $750 auto-transformer...? so it's coin toss. but I AM leaning towards the auto-transformer because I will then have the benefit of an overall balanced load on the inverter.

The bottom line for me is, as a "true" and completely off-grid setup with the Sol-Ark Inverter, (because it's transformer-less) - it's very important to have a balanced load "even without" an issue with a single phase induction motor. But as a matter of being finicky, I've already done that in my distribution panel for the most part, and I'm very aware of what's running and when.

Good that you have a working water pump now on the SolArk. You will just have to get used to the limitations of such a small amount of split phase power or buy something with more oomph.

 

[Outpost_51]

Our cabin has a 600ft deep 240v well pump that I have yet to tie into any inverter. If a storm rolls in where we wouldn't have grid power for a few days, we have have a tub bladder we fill up with a hand pump for water if needed. The 120v circuits are on an inverter/charger battery backup. Well is 35amp (8400w) surge and 7amp (1680w) run. I think the XWPro is the best option to run that and everything else. Also considering two Victron 5ks or two 10ks to have the extra punch.

my neighbor has a well, about 550 deep. I don't know what the pump is but it's 240v and when I go over there with my water hauler and 3500w generator ...the surge is very brief and hardly noticeable. he just bought the place, an elderly couple had it for many years...someone passed away and it went through probate and then the sale. beautiful land, 40 acres ( like mine) but anyway. he's fixing up the cabin, adding an addition and getting power into it. He just got started and had to go back home for business but will be back to live here permanently.
anyway....about the well
It was just tested for the sale, and they rated it a 1 gallon/minute... which I think is very low, but we're getting ( by timing it) about 4.5/5.0 gals a minute though a 100ft hose while filling my water hauler. but in fear of drawing too much, too fast -- I limit my draws to about (90 gals) 350 litres per session and wait and hour or so to do another.
With that idea....( not to abuse the well) we are planning to setup the deep well pump on a timer, so as to run automatically only (perhaps) 10 mins @ every 2 hours only until the 1100 gal storage tank is full....and draw water for the house from the tank with another pump just for the house.
I don't know much about wells but I think for this one, I don't want to draw it down too fast based on the rate the inspector came up with.

ANY input from ANYONE about this idea will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Hedges]

Starting the pump every two hours sounds like wear on the pump and strain on inverter.
I think ideally a lower flow pump running continuously until tank is full. (during daylight hours, so drawing from PV not battery.)

I don't know if wells are harmed by sucking dry (haven't dealt with them) but I would imagine pump would be. Something about water bearings, among other issues.

 

[Outpost_51]

I asked for the entire setup he had. I would not assume it is correct.

REC Solar N-PEAK 2 Black Series 365 Watt Monocrystalline Solar Module X8
50 Foot #10 AWG MC4 Extender Cable Male/Female Rated for 1000 Volts DC X1
Sol-Ark SA-5K Pre-wired Hybrid Inverter System X1
Victron Energy Lynx Power In X1
Inverter Cables Red/Black Pair, #2 AWG, 36 inches UL Listed MTW X3
Inverter Cables Red/Black Pair #4/0 AWG, 5 Foot UL Listed MTW X1
Simpliphi PHI-3.8-48-M 3.8kWh 48 Volt Lithium Ferro Phosphate Battery With Metal Case X3

 

[Outpost_51]

Starting the pump every two hours sounds like wear on the pump and strain on inverter.
I think ideally a lower flow pump running continuously until tank is full. (during daylight hours, so drawing from PV not battery.)

I don't know if wells are harmed by sucking dry (haven't dealt with them) but I would imagine pump would be. Something about water bearings, among other issues.

I honestly think the well was rated higher (20 or so years ago) when it was installed. I found the info online when I was thinking about a well for myself. and as I said in the other post...I'm getting @ 5 gallons a minute and it never seems to slow down. I just don't want to screw something up. Something went wrong with a well about 12 miles from me. It's HUGE and is rated at 125 gals a minute.... no joke. fills my 275 gal hauler in only a couple minutes. I think they ran it too hard to fill tanks one day and messed up the pump. they were down a month and the cost to fix it was not disclosed to me but I know they put up a deposit of $15K just to get a crew out there. The water has had alot more solids in it since then and I hade to clean my tanks pre-mature to my scheduled maintenance. my neighbors water is absolutely stunning clean and clear.. The report was great too.
I will throw this idea at him about the slow pump, I like it , it makes a lot of sense... we'll see what it will cost and if he wants to go with it.
Thanks

 

[toms]

my neighbor has a well, about 550 deep. I don't know what the pump is but it's 240v and when I go over there with my water hauler and 3500w generator ...the surge is very brief and hardly noticeable. he just bought the place, an elderly couple had it for many years...someone passed away and it went through probate and then the sale. beautiful land, 40 acres ( like mine) but anyway. he's fixing up the cabin, adding an addition and getting power into it. He just got started and had to go back home for business but will be back to live here permanently.
anyway....about the well
It was just tested for the sale, and they rated it a 1 gallon/minute... which I think is very low, but we're getting ( by timing it) about 4.5/5.0 gals a minute though a 100ft hose while filling my water hauler. but in fear of drawing too much, too fast -- I limit my draws to about (90 gals) 350 litres per session and wait and hour or so to do another.
With that idea....( not to abuse the well) we are planning to setup the deep well pump on a timer, so as to run automatically only (perhaps) 10 mins @ every 2 hours only until the 1100 gal storage tank is full....and draw water for the house from the tank with another pump just for the house.
I don't know much about wells but I think for this one, I don't want to draw it down too fast based on the rate the inspector came up with.

ANY input from ANYONE about this idea will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

My bore yields around 500 litres/hour.

I do just what you have said and run my pump for 15mins every couple of hours.

I started off running the pump at 5 litres / min, but it uses the same power so over the course of the day it took up too much power resource.

I use a 0.5kw pump, I guess in time I’ll find out how well it works.

 

[Outpost_51]

My bore yields around 500 litres/hour.

I do just what you have said and run my pump for 15mins every couple of hours.

I started off running the pump at 5 litres / min, but it uses the same power so over the course of the day it took up too much power resource.

I use a 0.5kw pump, I guess in time I’ll find out how well it works.

Sounds very similar. My fear is running the pump if it's drawing more water then the well is recovering through the table. I'm pretty much convinced that's what happened with the "community" well, when it failed last October. Water is a very serious commodity here in the desert. The cost of drill wells or repairing them....are very high. He and I are definitely wanting to make the best use of the well without causing an problems.

 

[niktak11]

I wouldn't want anything less than a single 15k for off grid use. Mine has no problem starting large loads.

 

[toms]

Sounds very similar. My fear is running the pump if it's drawing more water then the well is recovering through the table. I'm pretty much convinced that's what happened with the "community" well, when it failed last October. Water is a very serious commodity here in the desert. The cost of drill wells or repairing them....are very high. He and I are definitely wanting to make the best use of the well without causing an problems.

You can get pump controllers that have level sensors, these are placed on the pump delivery pipe at the levels for full well, and low well.

That way you can maximise your yield without damaging the pump.

I haven’t worried with it, i just use a low pressure switch that will disable the pump if it happens to run dry.

We only use around 3000 litres / day, so periodic pumping to get this yield has been working for us.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Or you can get a pump like the SQE which is made for a constant pressure set-up, where you use a small pressure vessel (8L or something) and the pump will kick in automatically based on a pressure sensor. You only draw what you need from the well at any given time, you don't need to put a large holding tank, and because of the soft start and variable speed, you don't even notice it on your system even with a small inverter (like my 3kVA Victron inverter I use in winter).

 

[LydMekk]

I have 3 pumps going: poolpump, water pressure for the house from cistern building and my 3-phase well pump with Deye/Solark 8kws without issue.
You need a bigger model inverter. Nothing wrong with your Solark but you chose too small a model to save money.

 

[Mattb4]

REC Solar N-PEAK 2 Black Series 365 Watt Monocrystalline Solar Module X8
50 Foot #10 AWG MC4 Extender Cable Male/Female Rated for 1000 Volts DC X1
Sol-Ark SA-5K Pre-wired Hybrid Inverter System X1
Victron Energy Lynx Power In X1
Inverter Cables Red/Black Pair, #2 AWG, 36 inches UL Listed MTW X3
Inverter Cables Red/Black Pair #4/0 AWG, 5 Foot UL Listed MTW X1
Simpliphi PHI-3.8-48-M 3.8kWh 48 Volt Lithium Ferro Phosphate Battery With Metal Case X3

Certainly looks like a enviable system to have with the exception of the SolArk (it being only 5kW at 240v split phase). I hope your wiring for your home is also well thought out. A system is only as strong as the weakest component.

 

[Outpost_51]

Certainly looks like a enviable system to have with the exception of the SolArk (it being only 5kW at 240v split phase). I hope your wiring for your home is also well thought out. A system is only as strong as the weakest component.

The house was brand new when we bought it and It's not a "tiny" home, but it is a pretty small one (678sf). It's a single-wide manufactured home and we did select certain construction options when we ordered it. 2x6 walls and more robust insulation in the roof, and a 200amp load center (for it's spacing ability) were the 2 most important ones on my list. The kitchen is served electrically by both legs and we arranged our electric devices accordingly ( but we typically only use only one appliance at a time anyway).

I did size this system with our needs and a budget in mind. And yes, because of it's size there's only so much to expect out of this systems capabilities. So we always mindful of that and do consider time of day, and PV and storage available when using power.

My heaviest appliances: Air fryer 1600W. Toaster 500W-1400W, Microwave 600W-1600W
Almost all appliances of this type are "on/off operation" appliances, and as you know these: switch from full power to off for all settings based on thermostat operation. And almost all microwave ovens use this same method for all power settings except when set at 100%. One exception to this is the Panasonic inverter microwave. We use the Panasonic inverter microwave which is one of the only microwave brands that actually does use "less power" on lower settings (rather than cycle full-on/full-off). and for solar, this is a great microwave - but you normally can't (for the starting surge) run it off a 120v 15amp single phase generator outlet - that's a bit much for the 3500w generator that I had at the time. Long before I even thought about solar, I used Panasonic because I can cook with it on lower and slower setting and cook more thoroughly without burning the edges of the food. (I like a crisp plastic edge on macaroni and cheese, but from a real oven bake,...not the microwave. LOL)

I use a "kill-a-watt" toy (I bought at Harbor Freight to check the basic load of appliances like that.

The stove is gas and we don't really use the oven ( haven't yet) and will probably only use that,- one or two times a year like Thanksgiving. What most people don't realize is that a newer gas stove/oven with electric igniter will consume (in my case ) 600w constantly to insure safe operation of the ovens burners. I avoid those mistakes by ignoring the yellow "dummy" cards on the appliance at the stores and read the UL tags where the power feeds into the device...and the "kill-a-watt" toy is very useful to see the real deal on that, especially if the appliance draws a variable load under different conditions.

The water heater is some-what a problem. It's 240v, single element, 3600W. ( I just heard you fall back in your chair on that one, and for good reason while I'm using a system spec'd at 5kW). During the construction I was discussing options with the dealer and when we talked out this home being installed off-grid and using solar,- we set aside the heating and A/C system. But the water heater was already installed. I said leave it and I'll deal with it later. So for the last 3 months I've actually only used it for about one hour each day ( @ solar noon) when I have over 2000W PV available...so that I'm not pulling so hard off the batteries (I'm very sensitive to that). But I have a 1500W 240v element on order and I'm going to continue to operate the heater at the same time each day ( modified around solar noon). I have an outdoor solar heater design in my plan with a small re-circ pump that I will retro into this heater as a boost.

Wiring:
I won't know the difference in cost. I don't even look or care, I wont use #14 for anything - I use only #12 when running 120v lights or outlets. All that's left for me to put is another light in the powerhouse, and a circuit in the water house when I build it. (and I don't need anything else installed in the house). The mini-spits are both 120v and spec'd for #14, but I'm not having it...I used #12 anyway.

Heating and A/C: ( Two, 120V units, I wired these on opposite legs)
The main open living area is @500sft and served by a single 12,000 BTU mini-split heat pump A/C, and normally keeps the whole house comfortable. 400W-1600W depending on setting and how close the ambient temp is to that setting.
The bedroom is served by a 9,000BTU mini-split heat-pump A/C and we use it rarely. 400W-1200W depending on setting and how close the ambient temp is to that setting.

If we go out in town and don't leave the main unit running, the house might be too cold or too hot when we get back....in the daytime it's not a problem to run both units at the same time - the load balances nicely. But I would only run it that way for a short period of time just to catch up, and when there's good PV and don't expect to have anything else running ( I'll have the water heater off, and not be cooking)

At night: It does takes more from storage to heat the house the winter, than it does to cool the house in the summer.
We can benefit from more storage in the winter (for that reason), but so far we're doing fine with this setup (12kW storage) and the Simpli-Phi batteries are still @$2500 each. I'm not in a hurry for that, I can wear socks to bed. LOL

Auto-Transformer:
Is most likely next on my options list. Although I'm moving to a 240v jet pump (for now) I'm probably better of getting a transformer as insurance that I can be better suited for other equipment that the Sol-Ark may struggle with, like a washing machine or other inductive motors, etc.

My Evaluation:
With the help of many people, including you, it's clear for me to understand that this size and type of inverter is not completely suitable for certain types of well pumps, motors...etc. And for that reason, I still feel that my evaluation regarding the (dealer) presentation of this system as a "complete off-grid solution" is lacking without the indication of such necessary add-ons that I find to be either necessary or critical or "true" off-grid application. The recommended kit should be listed with the transformer included or as an optional component ( and the reason why). And the same goes for the remote monitoring feature ability, and firmware update function (that do not work off-grid). If I was evaluating this hybrid inverter in an Grid connected configuration, I'm sure I would be giving it a full 5 stars, because I think it's a really awesome inverter, and the limitations found in my off-grid install....would be non-existent.

I'm very grateful for all the responses here on this thread, including all the mentions and suggestions for my neighbors well. All of this will help lead us to a very well configured solution on his system.

 

[Hedges]

The only 240V loads are the new pump, and the water heater. Anything else wired between L1 and L2?

See if you can rewire SolArk to output 120V.
Swap back in the 120V pump.
Move water heater to 120V L/N connection. Add a relay to enable it as a dump load only when battery can't accept all PV power.
Switch off mini-split at some DoD so enough power remains for more important loads.

Pictures look nice, but hot.
Is that a stream running through?

 

[Mattb4]

I still feel that my evaluation regarding the (dealer) presentation of this system as a "complete off-grid solution" is lacking without the indication of such necessary add-ons that I find to be either necessary or critical or "true" off-grid application. The recommended kit should be listed with the transformer included or as an optional component ( and the reason why). And the same goes for the remote monitoring feature ability, and firmware update function (that do not work off-grid). If I was evaluating this hybrid inverter in an Grid connected configuration, I'm sure I would be giving it a full 5 stars, because I think it's a really awesome inverter, and the limitations found in my off-grid install....would be non-existent.

Marketing terms like "a complete off-grid solution" have to be taken carefully. One persons off-grid solution is not another's.

I would not buy the auto transformer if I was you. Consider instead going away from the SolArk. These units are really designed for people that have grid power. Most of the features as you have found are not workable in a true off-grid situation.

 

[Outpost_51]

The only 240V loads are the new pump, and the water heater. Anything else wired between L1 and L2?

See if you can rewire SolArk to output 120V.
Swap back in the 120V pump.
Move water heater to 120V L/N connection. Add a relay to enable it as a dump load only when battery can't accept all PV power.
Switch off mini-split at some DoD so enough power remains for more important loads.

Pictures look nice, but hot.
Is that a stream running through?

The stream is after a rain,,, that's a little one.....I have a couple other washes that run so hard you won't dare try to cross. The summer does get hot here. but we're in a region where it's a little more tolerable @ 3000ft above sea level....it's hotter at lower altitudes.