Rebuild of Electric Pontoon Boat

[Bob B]

I find a use for both WH and AH .... For instance, if you measure the current draw of your motor at a particular setting and want to know how long you can go at that setting .... AH is a useful measure .... Oh, and batteries in series the voltage and WH increase, but the AH remains the same.
Things to be careful about is that you can't use the full AH of most battery chemistries.

With the old server, @Will Prowse was recommending people not use the email notification feature .... Not sure if that is still the case with the new server.

If you only want to get email notifications for a particular thread .... you can click on UNWATCH next to ignore at the top of the thread .... If you unwatch and then watch again you should get the option to watch and receive email notifications.

 

[Bop]

A common issue that 'you don't get the theory Ah' thing...

Catches a lot of newbies out- 'I did the calculations and I should have got 5 hours out of my camping battery, and it went flat after only a couple of hours AND it died after only a couple of months to boot!!!- that brand is crap!!!'

Nope- you did the 'theory calculations' eg 12v x 100Ah = 1200Wh- right???

But L/A can only safely use about HALF of that for most chemistries without immediate and permanent damage- so your 'real life' capacity is only 600Wh for that '1200Wh' 100Ah battery...

Its one reason that LFP isn't as expensive as many believe- yes they cost more (until recently lol) than a L/A of the same AH- but- you can safely use 80% instead of 50% of the 'theory rating'- which gives you (using 12v 100Ah again as an example) 960Wh for that 12v 100Ah battery using lithium, against only 600Wh for the same 12v 100Ah in a L/A battery... basically 1 1/2 times more storage for the same 'label Ah...

Add in the far longer service life (L/A taken each time to a 50% DOD (depth of discharge) will only give you about 500-1000 charge cycles, reduce that to 25% DOD (but that means the '100Ah' battery drops from 600Wh actual down to 300Wh and it extends it to 1500-2000 charge cycles, drop it to 10% DOD and you can stretch that out to 3000-3500 charge cycles (but your effective capacity is now only 120Wh!!! or 10Ah used out of your 100Ah 'label' capacity!!!

Meanwhile, a LFP will do 5000 charge cycles using that 80% DOD (960Wh) or 7000 cycles if you reduce it to 70% DOD (840Wh)

A HUGE increase in both service life AND actual storage capacity over L/A...

 

[Avalon14]

Hello again Gurus!
Well, I had it all working and even took it out a few times. Then, suddenly, she died! While messing around with it, the proper spun in reverse 1 time briefly.
I took the motor cover (Parsun 5, 48V) off and find it has a Mars Electric controller, ME0702N, circa 2013-ish. I can't find any docs online to help troubleshoot it. I don't find any obviously loose wiring.
I'm wondering if anybody might have documentation on any of this?
Failing that, perhaps somebody could explain how the control works on these. What sort of signal does the operator's speed control send to the motor controller? For instance, is it +12V to -12V with a fwd/reverse switchover happening at 0V?
Thanking you in advance!

 

[Bop]

Hello again Gurus!
Well, I had it all working and even took it out a few times. Then, suddenly, she died! While messing around with it, the proper spun in reverse 1 time briefly.
I took the motor cover (Parsun 5, 48V) off and find it has a Mars Electric controller, ME0702N, circa 2013-ish. I can't find any docs online to help troubleshoot it. I don't find any obviously loose wiring.
I'm wondering if anybody might have documentation on any of this?
Failing that, perhaps somebody could explain how the control works on these. What sort of signal does the operator's speed control send to the motor controller? For instance, is it +12V to -12V with a fwd/reverse switchover happening at 0V?
Thanking you in advance!

Nope, the Suns use an 'AC' motor (specifically a permanent magnet synchronous motor) which is driven by a variable frequency 'inverter' driver- do NOT try and feed it straight DC!!!!!

Never seen any 'Mars Electric' branded stuff, it's a relatively small US mob, who seem to be just a 'bring it in from overseas and rebadge it' mob lol, judging from their import sources...

The motor itself is unlikely to be the cause of the issue, synchronous motors are fairly indestructible, so it's likely the controller is at fault...
Considering the age and source, replacing it with another compatible driver would seem to be the better choice than trying to get a 'no-name' rebadged, decade old plus unit repaired...

The Joy motors are manufactured (or resold at least) by Parsons who still sell a very similar 6hp version- so I would say give their service department a try- they probably have a suitable replacement controller in stock lol
https://www.parsunpower.com/electric-outboard/

 

[yabert]

Mars Electric controller, ME0702N

Interesting. This remind me of Montenergy motor who usually was name Mars motor 0907 or ME0708 by example.
If it is from 2013, it not impossible to be brush motor instead of brushless.
As Bop said, it probably a controller problem. Try to find more information on the motor or share pictures.

 

[Avalon14]

Thanks guys, I'll dig into this some more and post.

Any comments on the control signal? What am I looking for from the operator's control stick?

 

[yabert]

Any comments on the control signal? What am I looking for from the operator's control stick?

A 0-5V or maybe a 0-5k. You will have to look at what the controller need/request.
You can probably bypass the ctrl stick with a 0.50$ potentiometer to test.

 

[JoeHam]

Might be worth a call to Mars Electric.

https://marselectric.com/

 

[Avalon14]

OK gurus, I've been doing a lot of homework.
I see a mention above, yabert, about "Montenergy". I was able to actually track down the owner of MARS Electric. Turns out he had to give up the name MARS due to being sued over it so many times. I can see that...
He re-branded as MOT Energy (MOTenergy.com) and is making small run, custom motors. Anyway, the guy was SUPER helpful at first and sent me a ton of info! Including an owners manual for the outboard which includes a wiring diagram, wiring pinouts for the remote throttle control, some troubleshooting tests for the remote throttle (all passed BTW). What I don't have is any troubleshooting info for the controller itself. However, I'm 90% sure it's dead at this point.
I posted the outboard manual, the applicable diagram is on P. 44 of the pdf (indicates "P. 39") titled "F4/5ER (POWER TILT)".
I'll skip all the details or this post would be way too much. To cut to the case, I ended up hot-wiring the contactor coil to the 48V+ that it controls. Still no signs of life. There is a small LED on the controller that I suppose lights when it is energized, but there was nothing. With the contactor energized, there was 48V present at the "B+" terminal on the controller and I did check continuity between the "B-" terminal on the controller and the battery -, all good.
So, I'm looking for confirmation of my diagnosis. I saw an earlier post regarding Parsun's service department. I have reached out to them and got crickets. So, I'm also looking for suggestions on alternative controllers. My friend @ MOT Energy ghosted me, lol, ah well.

 

[yabert]

I can see, from schematic, hall sensor and 3 phases for motor, so probably a BLDC motor.
Please share pictures of motor and controller, that will help us to give you advices.

 

[Avalon14]

I can see, from schematic, hall sensor and 3 phases for motor, so probably a BLDC motor.
Please share pictures of motor and controller, that will help us to give you advices.

Sorry for the delayed response gurus. I hope these help. I don't have a great picture of either the motor or the controller handy but I can take some if necessary.

 

[yabert]

There you go!
So, it's a brushless motor, probably almost identical to Montenergy ME0201014201 or ME-0907.
Rated around 100A continuous and around 200-250A peak.
Based on this, you can choose a controler from many supplier (Sevcon, Curtis, Goldenmotor, ASI BAC, etc)
Personally, I look at EZkontrol controller from goldenmotor and they seem really user friendly (Bluetooth programing) and affordable (starting at 300$) when compare to other choice.
They also come with all pins and connectors, so it's practical.

 

[Avalon14]

There you go!
So, it's a brushless motor, probably almost identical to Montenergy ME0201014201 or ME-0907.
Rated around 100A continuous and around 200-250A peak.
Based on this, you can choose a controler from many supplier (Sevcon, Curtis, Goldenmotor, ASI BAC, etc)
Personally, I look at EZkontrol controller from goldenmotor and they seem really user friendly (Bluetooth programing) and affordable (starting at 300$) when compare to other choice.
They also come with all pins and connectors, so it's practical.

Awesome Yabert! Thanks so much for your feedback. I was looking at Kelley for a controller, I don't see this on your list. Also, the Kelley's make you select a wave form of the motor, either sinusoidal or trapezoidal. I can't find that info shown anywhere. Do you have any idea what this motor might be?
I think mine is smaller, the PN ends like this.... 4001.
I did get a motor QC sheet which I've attached, it shows locked rotor amps (see the 2nd row).
Lemme know what you think.

 

[yabert]

You are right, Kelly is another choice.
Those controller had terrible quality in the past. I don't know about their new model like KLS. I hope they work well and the quality is good.
At least they are really affordable for sure.

 

[Avalon14]

I see the Golden Motor EZ Kontrol looks really nice actually. The big thing here is that I don't know if this motor is sine or square wave and the Golden is programmable between the two.

 

[yabert]

You have to read a bit more from EZKontrol:
''There are hundreds of programmable control parameters for you to play around and fine tune your drive system to satisfy your expectations! Sine-Wave or Square-Wave Control? You can simply choose Sine Wave control or Square Wave control in the same EZ controller by specifying the control mode via App.''

I also think EZKontrol look like really nice controller for the price. Let me know how well they work if you chose those.

 

[Avalon14]

You have to read a bit more from EZKontrol:
''There are hundreds of programmable control parameters for you to play around and fine tune your drive system to satisfy your expectations! Sine-Wave or Square-Wave Control? You can simply choose Sine Wave control or Square Wave control in the same EZ controller by specifying the control mode via App.''

I also think EZKontrol look like really nice controller for the price. Let me know how well they work if you chose those.

yeah, that's where I'm leaning at this point. I think the A size is fine for my motor. would you mind having a look at the motor's QC sheet I posted and see if you concur?

 

[yabert]

I think the A size is fine for my motor

Absolutely. The 400A or 500A model are rated 160A and 200A continuous phase current.
It's way more than your smalls motors can take, so those controllers should be enough.

 

[Avalon14]

Absolutely. The 400A or 500A model are rated 160A and 200A continuous phase current.
It's way more than your smalls motors can take, so those controllers should be enough.

OK Gurus-
Looks like I may have an interface issue w/ my throttle. If I'm understanding the wiring of the Parsun setup, it looks like the excitation voltage for the throttle is 48V. The rheostat tested OK I think w/ 2500 Ohms full fwd, 175 Ohms neutral, 2700 Ohms full rev.
The EZkontrol shows a 0 - 5V setup.
I think I'm going to need their throttle too.
Love to get another set of eyes on this to confirm before I wire transfer to China.
BTW, has anybody done business w/ these folks?
Thanking you in advance!
Mark

 

[yabert]

Looks like I may have an interface issue w/ my throttle

I'm not sure about this issue, but it will be interesting to know your solution.
There is a switch to flip to activate reverse on EZKontrol.
It seem like your throttle have switch outputs available to tell EZkontrol to reverse the motor.
Seem doable, but someone else or golden motor can help you more.