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Recommendations on Ground Source Heat Pump with soft start?

AlaskanNoob

Solar Enthusiast
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The biggest draw on our off grid solar array is going to be our hoped for ground source heat pump. I've used a calculator provided to me from a guy who works for Alaska Center for Energy and Power and even though it's for an air source heat pump, he suggested it would give an idea of the energy draw of a unit. Based on our cabin square footage and construction, local weather in their model, and keeping the cabin at 60F it's showing their unit would use about 11KW of power a day. But the report suggests we could go with a smaller unit because the unit it uses as its default never reached maximum use. But I don't know enough about GSHPs to select one really.

We're planning on burying 1000-2000 feet of horizontal loop ten feet down to hopefully oversize it. We have a 1000 square foot cabin with 2x6 construction, R-38 in the floor and roof, R-21 in the walls. But we have quite a lot of triple paned glass windows.

Looking for recommendations on GSHPs with soft start since we'll be feeding this power from a Victron Multiplus II that can only supply 230 volts, peak of 18KW, and continuous 8KW (at 77F).

Thanks in advance for been there-done thats on the topic!
 
You'll be looking for an variable frequency, inverter driven BLDC compressor unit- which is fairly common now. Most of the mini-split systems today are inverter types that soft start, and worst case, your HVAC guy hacks one to get the compressor with inverter/controller, removes the coil and fan, and installs a brazed plate heat exchanger to use as the new evaporator/condenser. I had to do the opposite; I was looking for a 230V AC run condenser unit with 12000 BTU, and found I had to buy a window AC unit to get the parts since all split systems are now inverter types. I added in floor cooling to my off grid home in that manner, using a brazed plate heat exchanger as evaporator/water chiller) with the outside unit consisting of compressor, condenser coil and fan. I

I'm not up on the brands of heat pump condenser units with controllers for ground source (no coil and fan on the outside unit.

I'm confused- you seem to be building a cabin in Alaska yet are using a standard 2x6, R19 wall and R-38 ceiling? Why not double that and spend a lot less on your power system and forever ongoing battery replacement costs? I'm a fan of superinsulation for off grid because it pays for itself immediately. Lots of windows would seem also ill suited for winters
 
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Thanks! We've been looking at the ClimateMaster Trilogy 45 Q-mode and it has the inverter and its variable speed from 30-100%.

Yes, we should have added more insulation to the cabin. We haven't finished our interior walls and ceiling, it's all vapor barrier exposed now, and we're definitely going to add some more for sure.
 
Our window to wall ratio is 11.5% which I think is relatively small owing to the fact that all of them on the ground level are only one foot tall to keep the bears out. Except for the sliding glass panels, that's the big glass. All windows are triple paned and double glazed.
 
That Trilogy Q unit has nice specs, with both hot water and space heating from ground source.
Minimally sizing the unit would require some serious thermal analysis or historic info from similarly constructed homes with ground source heating in a similar climate. You didn't mention the ground/water temperature that local systems are getting- that's important. You have a difficult design decision and the less you trust the thermal model and performance data on the GS Heat Pump, the more you have to oversize.

Best wishes for your most interesting project! I applaud the ground source, all electric approach.

Bruce
 
That Trilogy Q unit has nice specs, with both hot water and space heating from ground source.
Minimally sizing the unit would require some serious thermal analysis or historic info from similarly constructed homes with ground source heating in a similar climate. You didn't mention the ground/water temperature that local systems are getting- that's important. You have a difficult design decision and the less you trust the thermal model and performance data on the GS Heat Pump, the more you have to oversize.

Best wishes for your most interesting project! I applaud the ground source, all electric approach.

Bruce
Thank you for those wise words. Somebody else here in Alaska who is more familiar said that I need to see the efficiency of the pump with inlet water temps of 32F so that might be how cold it gets at 10 feet underground here. The design heat load from the calculations I've done using some software, appears to be 17K BTU for our small cabin. The unit is a two ton unit so it can put out 24K BTU. But with 32F inlet temps, the efficiency of the unit drops down. I'm still trying to figure out the chart to see how many BTU it can put out with the colder inlet temps but haven't cracked the code yet. It appears that at 30F and the compressor running full speed, it can put out 29 MBTUH. I'm not sure how that equates to BTU output of the unit though to see if it will meet the 17K BTU design heating load.
 

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Thank you for those wise words. Somebody else here in Alaska who is more familiar said that I need to see the efficiency of the pump with inlet water temps of 32F so that might be how cold it gets at 10 feet underground here. The design heat load from the calculations I've done using some software, appears to be 17K BTU for our small cabin. The unit is a two ton unit so it can put out 24K BTU. But with 32F inlet temps, the efficiency of the unit drops down. I'm still trying to figure out the chart to see how many BTU it can put out with the colder inlet temps but haven't cracked the code yet. It appears that at 30F and the compressor running full speed, it can put out 29 MBTUH. I'm not sure how that equates to BTU output of the unit though to see if it will meet the 17K BTU design heating load.
Ouch, 32F water input is cccold. They are showing a COP of 2.8, which I find optimistic with 32F water. They claim 3KW power consumption for those conditions, so if you get a COP of 2 (I don't believe 2.8 with 32F water unless I had independent confirmation data) , you will be getting 6KW of resisitive equivalent heating. That's 4- 1500W portable electric heaters. That concerns me for your Alaskan R19/38 1000SF cabin.

It is concerning in that depending on cloud conditions, your backup generator will forced into service. They are only about 33% efficient at best in converting fuel to electricity. The rest is wasted as heat without a heat recovery system. Wth your COP of 2.8, you still are not better than a straight fuel furnace when your must run the generator.

I'd want to find data from a similar ground source heating system in a similar climate. You might also want to consider a well bore type system if that would get you warmer ground source temperatures from the much greater depth.

Its a VERY challenging environment for an off grid, ground source heating system.

Best Wishes,
Bruce
 
Thanks again for all that info. We definitely need to look into this in much greater detail. It may well prove that it's just going to heat the cabin in the shoulder season and we'll be stuck with the wood stove for December and January which would still be a huge improvement for us.
 
I'd want to find data from a similar ground source heating system in a similar climate. You might also want to consider a well bore type system if that would get you warmer ground source temperatures from the much greater depth.

Here in Finland a typical bore depth for geothermal for a house sits between 150 and 300 meters, and more recently even pushing to go between 400 to 600 meters. The main issue with this of course is cost. Drilling itself costs about 35 euros per meter here (bedrock), so combined with the heat pump itself, storage vessel etc. you're looking at around 20k€. The upside of course is that you have water temperature of 10C to 15C coming from the ground year round...
 
A borehole would be awesome. I'm actually looking into some drill rigs on tracks now to see if this is something we can do.
 
After living with a ground source heat pump as our primary heating source for ten years, we have seldom been so disappointed in an expensive, over-hyped piece of kit. It never delivered on energy savings. It has never been reliable (as I type this, we are again without heat and my feet are freezing). It cost three times what a 'regular' hvac cost.

Did we get a lemon? Is this simply the normal life of a ground source heat pumps ten years ago? Have things changed since then? Don't know, but I do know it would take a ton of first hand factual data before even remotely considering another gshp.

YMMV
 
After living with a ground source heat pump as our primary heating source for ten years, we have seldom been so disappointed in an expensive, over-hyped piece of kit. It never delivered on energy savings. It has never been reliable (as I type this, we are again without heat and my feet are freezing). It cost three times what a 'regular' hvac cost.

Did we get a lemon? Is this simply the normal life of a ground source heat pumps ten years ago? Have things changed since then? Don't know, but I do know it would take a ton of first hand factual data before even remotely considering another gshp.

YMMV
Sorry to hear that man. So no idea why it's not delivering?
 
After living with a ground source heat pump as our primary heating source for ten years, we have seldom been so disappointed in an expensive, over-hyped piece of kit. It never delivered on energy savings. It has never been reliable (as I type this, we are again without heat and my feet are freezing). It cost three times what a 'regular' hvac cost.

Did we get a lemon? Is this simply the normal life of a ground source heat pumps ten years ago? Have things changed since then? Don't know, but I do know it would take a ton of first hand factual data before even remotely considering another gshp.

YMMV
Here in Finland a typical bore depth for geothermal for a house sits between 150 and 300 meters, and more recently even pushing to go between 400 to 600 meters. The main issue with this of course is cost. Drilling itself costs about 35 euros per meter here (bedrock), so combined with the heat pump itself, storage vessel etc. you're looking at around 20k€. The upside of course is that you have water temperature of 10C to 15C coming from the ground year round...
(edit- sorry, got my wires crossed between Upland and Kornbread, now corrected)
My sympathies, Kornbread, and thanks for sharing your hard earned experience. You've been had by an incompetent or inexperienced HVAC company. The devil is in the details. I also agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of wanting some good local data on performance- with the same system designer.

Most helpful. Upland. Thank you. I expect the Alaska deep bore temperatures will be similar. Pity the drilling costs are so high there in Finland as well as here in the US. The end result is ideal.
 
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Just got a quote from one of three drilling companies that have tracked vehicles. $125 a foot with a $50K minimum. They have to drive their equipment seven hours just to get to us. That's too much money for us so we're gonna have to go with an oversized horizontal loop and just burn wood if the unit doesn't produce enough. I've got an excavator so I can do the horizontal loop myself mostly. Too bad it doesn't have a drilling rig attachment though!
 
If I had my own excavator of decent size, it would bring up the question of depth of soil vs temperature. I'm thinking a hole as deep as the excavator can dig. What would the temps be there? (I would like an excavator to play with ?)
... never mind, I see the posted link states they chose a depth of 4' due to this being a sort of boundary between the permafrost (up to +30' depth) and the seasonal frost layer. That's a lot of cold you have up there!

What about heating the water directly with solar (both electrically and solar water heaters >do solar water heaters work up there?), using a large, well insulated storage tank as heat storage, run the loops from the gshp through that? Of course, heat storage will be limited to the size of tank and available power ... not going to work w/o sun.

The wells sound cost prohibitive.

... why is it not delivering?
Sharp and to the point. Caution, semi-rant/venting ahead.

A lot of it lays on the 'used car salesman' mentality of the business owner who installed the gshp. The rest, the equipment just isn't reliable.
A few 'discovered' issues from shoddy installation/service: 1) after several years, we learn the unit has been generating no 'free' hot water because something in the unit was not turned on, 2) ground loops leaking and have to be refilled, 3) the emergency electric heating strips were installed but never hooked up, we found this out with temps in the single digits as the main unit again quit. 4) loud, wakes us up at night - dealer was supposed to place unit in a water tight tray and place on sound insulating pads to lessen noise. He did not. 5) currently, we find the emergency electric heating strips are not installed correctly causing thermal limit switch to activate, limiting heat output when the main system quits, 6) AND, this is very frustrating as our son has dust mite allergies and we always used the very best filters; they did not bother to attach the air handler part of the unit with the air intake part of the ductwork. The unit was simply pushed up against the ductwork and never physically connected (except for some tape). It eventually separated allowing unfiltered air to circulate throughout the house. There is more, but you get the picture.

Some things that come to mind on the equipment side: 1) the heat exchanger, which runs the entire length of the unit and actually heats/cools the air, leaked out all freon. Over $3k to repair, luckily, we had two weeks remaining on the warranty and the dealer covered the cost, even though he did not show up to diagnose/fix the unit until after the warranty expired. 2) we have been nursing the compressor for several years and a tech installed a 'hot start' capacitor to insure it starts. 3) Did I mention how loud the unit is??? This is a major faux paus for a unit that sits inside the house. Good thing we have a loud home theater in the house. 4) It has never delivered in regards to energy savings. The unit has been down nearly all summer and we used three small ac window units (walmart @$130) to cool our house. Our house is very well insulated but at 2000sq. ft., much more than three @$130 window units should cool. Surprisingly, they kept the house cool, and even more surprisingly, our monthly electric bill dropped >$30.

Almost forgot. Our unit used to 'soft start', as in the compressor gently ramped up to speed. It no longer does that.

... end crying.

Be very cautions where you spend your money. Be absolutely, 110% sure, the dealer is reputable and will stand behind the product. You are going to need them.

Surely the tech has grown up becoming more efficient and reliable over the years.
 
Local technical and service resources are certainly an important issue that is often ignored by new tech enthusiasts, Kornbread. Thanks for sharing your story on GSHP nightmares. You have good cause to rant! In very rural areas, like mine, competence in HVAC is very rare.

Kornbread, I am a big fan of direct hot water heating by solar flat panel collectors here in AZ at 5600ft, but like you I suspect with the regular snow, low temperatures (losses through glazing), and very limited hours of sunshine in Alaskan winters, it may not be viable. Also, only in-floor heat can use water temperatures of 80-130F.

BuilditSolar.com was a very valuable design resource for me when I designed my own solar hot water system. The site owner is a retired aero engineer and now solar enthusiast.
 
Do your homework, it is critical to have a good design. Proper methanol concentrations and flow rates through the ground loops are essential, do not over size the unit unless you have a good buffer tank if going water to water for radiant heating.

Most systems can pull the ground loops down to freezing, so the return to the ground can be 32 and usually coming back around ten degrees higher in my area. I see systems that run great until January and then fail because the ground temp can’t recoup and the system goes out on high head pressure. These systems are designed around the off cycle to let the ground temp recoup.

I work on a house another HVAC contractor installed on Orcas Island in Washington state that just failed because of too small of ground loops for the unit and the entire house froze solid. I am heading out next week to see how bad it is.
 
Do your homework, it is critical to have a good design. Proper methanol concentrations and flow rates through the ground loops are essential, do not over size the unit unless you have a good buffer tank if going water to water for radiant heating.

Most systems can pull the ground loops down to freezing, so the return to the ground can be 32 and usually coming back around ten degrees higher in my area. I see systems that run great until January and then fail because the ground temp can’t recoup and the system goes out on high head pressure. These systems are designed around the off cycle to let the ground temp recoup.

I work on a house another HVAC contractor installed on Orcas Island in Washington state that just failed because of too small of ground loops for the unit and the entire house froze solid. I am heading out next week to see how bad it is.

Thank you! Planning on a two-ton unit with 1000-1500 feet of ground loop. 500 feet of the loop on a south facing slope with no shade. The rest going through forest shaded by trees.

No radiant heat for us. Planning on it just blowing hot air from the unit into the cabin.
 
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