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Replacing House Bank

Mondo2155

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May 6, 2020
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Hi everyone, I really appreciate all that I have learned from studying this Forum and all of your input. I have 8 Xuba 280hr cells on the way to replace my house battery bank of three 4D FLA on a 42' sailboat. I would really appreciate anyone with more knowledge checking out my drawing and giving me any input as to need breakers, wire sizing or anything else to help my transition go smoothly. My wire runs are less than 5' one way. I have decide to keep an AGM starting battery to leave the Balmar HO alternator alone and use a Victron Orion DC-DC charger to top off the LifePO4 bank. I am using mostly Victron products to have as much control and visibility as possible over my system. Would really like to have your help. Thanks

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Overall, I like the layout, but have a couple of questions/concerns.
1) I have not attempted to figure out the currents in your set-up, but the 2 AWG wiring for the inverters and batteries seems too small.

As an example, coming off the LiFePO4 banks, you have a 2 AWG wire. 2AWG is rated for ~ 120 amps but you have the circuit protected by a 200 Amp breaker. The wire might burn before the breaker blows.

Also, what is the possible current draw of the inverter. I don't know what model it is but my guess is that it will draw more than 120A.

Here are a couple of resources I put up that might help:
https://diysolarforum.com/resources/fuse-and-breaker-sizing-and-placement.37/
https://diysolarforum.com/resources/blue-seas-wire-sizing-chart.14/

2) The windmill looks like it is hooked to the battery without any type of charge controller. That seems like a good way to burn up your batteries.

3) I see you have chosen a 4S2P configuration. What BMS are you planning to use?

4) I like to have a disconnect on the DC to the inverter. I also like to put a pre-charge circuit on the disconnect. Here is a resource I put up for that purpose.
https://diysolarforum.com/resources/inverter-disconnect-switch-with-precharge.60/

5) Why do you have a disconnect between the engine and the battery?

6) Is the inverter an inverter/charger?. The blury picture looks like a multi-plus Compact which is an inverter charger.

7) I like that you have the smart charger between the alternator/engine and the LiFePO4 bank, but then you have a switch that can completely bypass the smart Charger and hook the house & starter battery together. Why have that switch at all? Besides the ability to bridge the two batteries and goof up the charging profiles, there are other potential problems. If you accidentally leave the switch on the starter battery, you could drain the starter battery....and that is a *very* bad thing if you are out at sea. These selector/combiner switches came from a time when boats had identical starboard and port banks and they allowed a certain flexibility in using them. These days the house bank and starter banks are very different and are put in place for different use profiles. I am recommending boat owners to keep the two banks of batteries as separate as possible. (Don't use a 1-ALL-2-Off switch) Always drive your DC loads off of the house battery and reserve the starter battery for just starting the engine.

If you are worried about being able to start the engine off the house bank in an emergency situation you can do one of two things: 1) Bring a pare of jumper cables or 2) set up a relay that is controlled by a push-button to connect the two.
In either case, it would only be used as a last resort.

If you want to charge your starter battery from shore power, set up a separate charger that runs off of shore power and has a charge profile that is appropriate to your starter battery.
 
Thanks for your reply. I have read many of your posts. I will try to address all of your well taken points and I appreciate your help!



  1. I have not attempted to figure out the currents in your set-up, but the 2 AWG wiring for the inverters and batteries seems too small.

You are correct, that’s where I am at right now Wire sizes and needed Breakers. We are going with a Victron MultiPlus Compact 12/2000 Inverter Charger, with the biggest single AC load on the boat being the 950W Microwave. The manual recommends a 300 Amp breaker. My wire runs will be less than 10 feet total; do you think everything should be 2/0 from the LifePO4 bank and Inverter?
2) The windmill looks like it is hooked to the battery without any type of charge controller. That seems like a good way to burn up your batteries.​
I will double check, but this is how it is wired now direct to the House Bank with the Run/Stop/Charge switch. It stays in the Stop position unless we feel we need it and then with all the ways we will have to monitor our SOC I was thinking we could keep an eye on it with the BMS shutting current off to keep us between a 10% - 90% SOC?
3) I see you have chosen a 4S2P configuration. What BMS are you planning to use?​
I have ordered 2 4S 120A from Overkill Solar. Can the negatives be connected in parallel to handle 240A?
4) I like to have a disconnect on the DC to the inverter. I also like to put a pre-charge circuit on the disconnect. Here is a resource I put up for that purpose.​
I like the idea and will try to incorporate it into my plan.
5) Why do you have a disconnect between the engine and the battery?​
That is the way it is set up now from the manufacturer. We have a 1-Both-2 Combiner switch which we will want to remove the start battery from, and a disconnect from the Starter Battery to the Engine.
6) Is the inverter an inverter/charger? Victron MultiPlus Compact 12/2000 Inverter Charger
7) I like that you have the smart charger between the alternator/engine and the LiFePO4 bank, but then you have a switch that can completely bypass the smart Charger and hook the house & starter battery together. Why have that switch at all?​
Totally agree. I was thinking of reworking that switch to just shut the LifePO4 House bank On or Off? Definitely want to keep Starter battery completely isolated from the House. Only using the alternator to charge the Start battery with the Orion TR B2B Charger to feed the LifePO4 bank if need while running the engine. It is supposed to be configurable and only come on if the engine is running and charging is needed.
As far as charging the Starter battery from shore power I believe The MultiPlus has a secondary output for the starter battery? Otherwise, we always have jumper cables on board just in case.
Again, I really appreciate all of your feedback and suggestions. Now that you know the main power draw could you give me some advice on breakers and wire size. BTW, the boat is in SFO Bay and when this project is complete, we are taking her South. Thanks again, I have attached the current electrical plan just in case it helps?
1593477511812.png1593477511812.png
 
My wire runs will be less than 10 feet total; do you think everything should be 2/0 from the LifePO4 bank and Inverter?

2000W/12V= 167Amps. Furthermore, the Vicrons can handle surge currents up to 3x the normal run rate. That is why they recommend a 300 amp breaker. Even though you do not expect to draw this much, I still recommend the wires between the battery and busbars should be 2/0. The wires between the inverter and the busbars should also be 2/0. You could use 1/0 but you would want to make sure to put a 150A breaker in. The other wires can typically be much smaller. (Charge currents and load currents other than the inverter are rarely that large on a boat)

I was thinking we could keep an eye on it with the BMS shutting current off to keep us between a 10% - 90% SOC?
That works......You become the BMS. Personally I don't trust myself to remember to check. I would end up forgetting it is on and fry my batteries.

Windmills are tricky for a couple of reasons.
1) if you quit drawing the power off of them and the wind is still blowing, the open circuit voltage can get very high.
2) If you quit drawing the power off of them and the wind is still blowing, they will spin very fast... at a minimum, it is not good for the bearings. At worst, the windmill can tare itself apart.

It must be desogned for a 12V system... but do you know the wattage and/or current? do you have any documentation on it?

I have ordered 2 4S 120A from Overkill Solar. Can the negatives be connected in parallel to handle 240A?
Yup, that is the one I have been using on 12V systems. You can definitely set them up in parallel like you show.
If I could find a higher amp 4S BMS that has low-temp charge protect, I would use it and go 2P4S with a single BMS.... but I have not found a BMS like that so I use the one Overkill sells and double it up like you show in the diagram.

Note: Even though they are rated at 120 Amps, the general concensous is that the FET Based China BMS should be derated by quite a bit. Consequently, the two BMS are probably not at all over speced for your system. They are about right. (I would be worried if you were using the 100A version of that BMS)

5) Why do you have a disconnect between the engine and the battery?That is the way it is set up now from the manufacturer. We have a 1-Both-2 Combiner switch which we will want to remove the start battery from, and a disconnect from the Starter Battery to the Engine.

I can see the value in being able to totally disconnect the starter battery. If you want to be sure the system is off and nothing is draining the battery....just flip the switch. On the other hand, starting the engine on a boat is sacrosanct....it must always work. Having a switch there is something that can fail. It comes down to personal choice.... there is no 'right' answer

6) Is the inverter an inverter/charger? Victron MultiPlus Compact 12/2000 Inverter Charger

Nice unit!! I just worked with my Brother-in-law to install one of those on a Nordic Tug 26 up near Seattle.
As far as charging the Starter battery from shore power I believe The MultiPlus has a secondary output for the starter battery? Otherwise, we always have jumper cables on board just in case.

I believe your starter is remaining lead-acid.... Correct? Unfortunately the MultiPlus line of inverter/chargerss can only be programed for one charge profile even if they have multiple battery outputs. (Also, does the MultiPlus Compact have the multiple charger outputs? I don't recall seeing that..... but was not looking for it either).

If there is any chance the boat will sit for extended periods, you definitely want some kind of smart trickle charger on the lead acid starter battery. Lead acid really does not like being discharged.... and they self discharge fairly rapidly. If it will be on shore power while it sits, a small Smart Charger running off of shore power would be a good idea.

I have attached the current electrical plan just in case it helps?
It looks somewhat typical.

I notice there is a battery that appears to be located near the Windlass. If this is the case, it was probably done that way to avoid the voltage drop of a high-amp circuit leading to the Windlass. (A large voltage drop on the wires can damage the windlass). Have you decided how the windlass will tie into the new system? Will you leave it on the starter circuit or put it on the house battery? If you put it on the house battery, you need to make sure you have a very heavy circuit going to it. What is the make/model of the windlass? We can look up the specs and figure out what is needed.

the boat is in SFO Bay and when this project is complete, we are taking her South.

Cool, I live in Los Gatos. PM me if you need some help.
.
 
Hi Mondo, I like your electrical drawings. I have to make some myself. What app did you use? thx, Joe
 
Thanks Joe,
It is Open Office - Drawing. Open Office is free open source software that rivals Microsoft Office.
 
Hi Mondo,Sea Of Love at Sandy  Cay (8).JPG
So I just installed open office and after 15 minutes I am getting a headache. I used to love this but not any more it would seem. I think being 70+ has something to do with it. Bottom line, I already have installed solar and inverter and a large # of AGMs. I need to convert to Lithium as my AGMs are nearing the end of their useful lives. I don't have any plans for wind.
What can I offer you to send me what you have worked up as a starter and almost a finish for my plan. I realize you have spent hours and hours and I respect that. I could offer sailing in the British Virgin Islands as barter sv-seaoflove.com or not to insult you but cash if you would prefer.
Regards,Sea Of Love at Sandy  Cay (8).JPGSea Of Love at Sandy  Cay (8).JPG
Joe
 
Think of it as if I am hiring you to prepare drawings for me. It's way to much work to be a favor.
 
Battery Box is finished and being tested. Everything so far is has worked out great! Just want to say Thank You to everyone on this forum for all the great information that exists here. If it weren’t for Will’s videos and this forum, I wouldn’t have decided that I could do this. We will drop this in the boat tomorrow and finish the new install and components.
 

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that battery box is fantastic. Did you custom fabricate it? (looks like metal from here). What kind of connectors are those that connect the BMSes to the battery negative?
 
Tap Plastics - Starboard 3/4" Sides, 1/4" Top and Bottom. 3/8" SS Threaded Rod with SS screws. Simple, kind of expensive though, about $150.
 
Thought I would post a install photo. Bye bye three 4DLT's. All wired up and running, just need to finish the hold downs. So far so good, now to put it through some testing. Looking for many, many Amp hrs. :) Thanks again to all for your input, it truly was a community effort.
 

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Thought I would post a install photo. Bye bye three 4DLT's. All wired up and running, just need to finish the hold downs. So far so good, now to put it through some testing. Looking for many, many Amp hrs. :) Thanks again to all for your input, it truly was a community effort.
Nice!!
 
Mondo2155
What a great post. I am at the beginning stages of build a battery set for my 39 foot sail boat. It wonderful to see that people are still willing to give a hand to people in need. I also love watching Will videos.
 
Thanks Mike,
It's been a great experience and this website is full of good information and people willing to help and answer questions. Here is the new bank mounted rock solid. Time to head south.
 

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Hi Mondo,View attachment 17143
So I just installed open office and after 15 minutes I am getting a headache. I used to love this but not any more it would seem. I think being 70+ has something to do with it. Bottom line, I already have installed solar and inverter and a large # of AGMs. I need to convert to Lithium as my AGMs are nearing the end of their useful lives. I don't have any plans for wind.
What can I offer you to send me what you have worked up as a starter and almost a finish for my plan. I realize you have spent hours and hours and I respect that. I could offer sailing in the British Virgin Islands as barter sv-seaoflove.com or not to insult you but cash if you would prefer.
Regards,View attachment 17143View attachment 17143
Joe
That’s one nice Catamaran!
 
Thanks Mike,
It's been a great experience and this website is full of good information and people willing to help and answer questions. Here is the new bank mounted rock solid. Time to head south.
I am trying to build a similar battery system to you. I live on a 39 foot sail boat down in Florida . I am going to use 16 -100 amp cells.( 400 amp bank). to make 2 12 volt 4s2p Did you build a 24v or 12 v bank. Also do you have a final wiring diagram of you components.
 
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