Rolling blackouts, another benefit of solar

[svetz]

That's not what he is talking about. Geez, exaggerations don't help anything.

It's just your perspective. I thought he was exaggerating and not helping anything as everyone who has solar (e.g., most of us) knows there is Dunkelflaute, that's where the planning and engineering coming in.

 

[JonMez]

So I was listening a conversation online about a possibility of rolling blackouts by 2027 in our state. I was able to find a link online which verified the possibility.

There has been discussion about the needs for additional power for artificial intelligence in the future and the possibility that the grid may have difficulty keeping pace. Naturally, this discussion is above my pay grade.

Even so, one of the benefits of solar with batteries is having the opportunity to have power when the lights do go out. And then there is the cost savings due to less purchased electricity as utilities prices rise.

Curious what your findings have been in your part of the world.

I realize this is an older thread, but it looks like it’s still going - most people, including myself until recently didn’t realize how easy it was to do a 10 circuit or whatever transfer switch for critical loads. ~$1000 for parts and labor many folks can set this up to allow critical loads to be backed up by a basical solar setup, or a gas generator. Most houses that don’t have electric stoves or electric dryers really don’t need that much to keep going minus central air Units.

 

[wpns]

Dunkelflaute

Sure, but we didn’t know it was called that.

Dunkelflaute - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[billvon]

Let's assume for the moment that all AI data center power will need to come from nuclear or coal power - should we build them ? Because solar isn't going to be enough. Wasting a valuable chemical resource like natural gas on electricity is not a good long term path.

Coal - no. Does too much harm to other people.

Nuclear - maybe, if they pay for everything (i.e. no Price-Anderson coverage) and are willing to take care of it cradle to grave.

 

[42OhmsPA]

If the wind never blows again and the sun never shines again you're going to have bigger problems than rolling outages. Otherwise it's just planning and engineering.

Not if you stick with tried and true energy sources and invest heavily in nuclear.

I agree talking long term, months on end, there will be much bigger issues. That's not what I'm talking about...

What happens when you have a week of clouds or poor wind or a hurricane that takes out wind mills or floating solar panels.

Where does all the excess solar go when peak production isn't being used because people aren't home when peak production occurs?
That's where my original comment about needing a big ass battery bank stemmed from.... The cost of that compared to using tried and true energy sources doesn't make sense.
Solar is awesome but it's not the end all solution. ....

 

[42OhmsPA]

It's just your perspective. I thought he was exaggerating and not helping anything as everyone who has solar (e.g., most of us) knows there is Dunkelflaute, that's where the planning and engineering coming in.

Yea... Ask anyone with a decent sized system that is truly off grid why they have a generator and didn't decide to build a battery bank that would last through everything they need.... It doesn't make financial sense.

 

[svetz]

Yea... Ask anyone with a decent sized system that is truly off grid why they have a generator and didn't decide to build a battery bank that would last through everything they need.... It doesn't make financial sense.

Sure stuff happens... remember when the gas wells in Texas froze up and power went out for 3 days in the freezing cold affecting 10 million people?

Ohio isn’t a remote, off-grid cabin. It benefits from economies of scale and increased contributions from distributed energy resources. The state already has agreements to manage power shortfalls, as even coal plants go offline from time to time. Additionally, synergistic technologies like virtual power plants (VPPs) can optimize energy use reducing capital costs. During low renewable output periods like Dunkelflaute, high time-of-use (TOU) pricing can incentivize EV and ES owners; returning money to consumers by them supplying power (reducing utility costs and reducing reliance on costly Peaker plants and profits to a small group of investors). Several states have successful VPP programs now.

 

[wheelman55]

Does the owner know this? That can be a real money loser for them.

Really. That's just stupid.

for whatever reason that was,
they should install a second internet for failover

I’m simply talking of one particular real life situation. Myself and all of my immediate neighbors are 100% off grid. We are in a remote area that we would not trade for anything else. Even as independent as we are, we’re still dependent on the grid to some extent.

 

[svetz]

Not if you stick with tried and true energy sources and invest heavily in nuclear.

Nuclear works great, it's just expensive and takes too long to build. I really like Helion Fusion ( because it gets rid of the steam turbines, not because we'd need a moon base to mine the fuel ; -)

Where does all the excess solar go when peak production isn't being used because people aren't home when peak production occurs?

In an off-grid home it goes nowhere. But, when interconnected to the grid you just sell it at lower price points. What happens when everyone has excess and the cost goes to zero because we really do have too much power? Nothing, just like an off-grid home. It's a nice problem to have, free air-conditioning in summer! Hmmm, actually, companies would probably just fire up more AIs to consume it.

Side note: Did you know they typically over build power plants too? Most generally run around 50 to 60%.

Solar is awesome but it's not the end all solution. ....

I agree. They have a ton of perfectly good fossil fuel plants they could use for backup if they wanted to go 100% solar. But we're not talking about 100% solar for the state. We're talking about a way to get them some additional power fast to avoid rolling blackouts.

This might interest you:

• Tokelau the first nation to achieve 100% solar power & batteries is backed by coconut oil-powered generators for overcast days

Why Coconuts? Because, it's what they have locally...lots and lots of coconuts. Ohio might even do the same thing. Bottle excess energy up in long term biofuels and burn it when needed. Ohio is already big at turning corn into ethanol for cars... but when the cars are all EVs that industry goes away... but as backup fuel they could still keep that ethanol industry going. That's what I meant by planning and engineering. As Monroe says, people are quick to say no and not explore the alternatives to find the solutions actually best for the state.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Ask anyone with a decent sized system that is truly off grid why they have a generator and didn't decide to build a battery bank that would last through everything they need

With prices coming down as they are, I do have a plan to build a 1MWh container that would allow me to eliminate the generator though. Cost for the cells to do that is at 40 Euro/kWh now, so 40k Euro in cells for 1MWh. It's becoming feasible.

 

[Dave.A]

Most power outages are local substation related. You can drive to the next town and buy gasoline or use propane or natural gas.

If we are talking about a whole region losing power (like the winter storm in Texas) that is a different story.

Most of us will not face that with inexpensive grid power and a back-up power system. I could put up solar but the math is not there.
Electric Consumption 215.000 kWh x 0.11112 $23.89

I use to work with Schneider on their new "home" power system. It is even worse than the Tesla PW3 in that it is a high voltage battery with no way to charge except solar or the grid. They think you should buy a generator that runs the home but can't charge the battery. What if the storm/Fire takes out the grid and your solar panels.

 

[wpns]

Most power outages are local substation related. You can drive to the next town and buy gasoline or use propane or natural gas.

If we are talking about a whole region losing power (like the winter storm in Texas) that is a different story.

Most of us will not face that with inexpensive grid power and a back-up power system. I could put up solar but the math is not there.
Electric Consumption 215.000 kWh x 0.11112 $23.89

I use to work with Schneider on their new "home" power system. It is even worse than the Tesla PW3 in that it is a high voltage battery with no way to charge except solar or the grid. They think you should buy a generator that runs the home but can't charge the battery. What if the storm/Fire takes out the grid and your solar panels.

When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail

 

[Q-Dog]

Most power outages are local substation related. You can drive to the next town and buy gasoline or use propane or natural gas.

If we are talking about a whole region losing power (like the winter storm in Texas) that is a different story.

Most of us will not face that with inexpensive grid power and a back-up power system. I could put up solar but the math is not there.
Electric Consumption 215.000 kWh x 0.11112 $23.89

I use to work with Schneider on their new "home" power system. It is even worse than the Tesla PW3 in that it is a high voltage battery with no way to charge except solar or the grid. They think you should buy a generator that runs the home but can't charge the battery. What if the storm/Fire takes out the grid and your solar panels.

Maybe where you are that is true ... it most certainly is not true here in South Louisiana. I have had more multi-day outages than I can remember, and those are always the result of power lines downed by trees, poles broken by the wind, transmission lines on the ground, transmission towers toppled, etc. The entire reason my system exists was because I ran out of gas on the third day of a 7 day outage.

I rode out my first couple of week long outages with candles and a camp stove. Good times! (not)

 

[Delmar]

Most power outages are local substation related. You can drive to the next town and buy gasoline or use propane or natural gas.

In south Louisiana you can drive to the next town but the line to buy gas will be around the block. Very unnerving being a travelling engineer and have to plan your gas stops.

 

[Dave.A]

If I had to wait in line to buy gasoline? I would use natural gas or propane to fire a genset in a long outage to charge my battery.
It does depend where you live! The point is you do not have to rely on solar right? Title of the thread rolling blackouts.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

natural gas or propane to fire a genset

Diesel here. Stores better than gasoline, and you can make it yourself. Gets me through winter - until the 1MWh pack is real

 

[svetz]

With prices coming down as they are, I do have a plan to build a 1MWh container that would allow me to eliminate the generator though. Cost for the cells to do that is at 40 Euro/kWh now, so 40k Euro in cells for 1MWh. It's becoming feasible.

CATL: $10/kWh sodium; not sure what the round trip efficiency is, but if you have enough solar it won't make a difference. The < -40°C might be of interest too.

It doesn't make financial sense.

This goes back to the LCOEs and LACEs, it didn't use to make sense ... but times change and $10/kWh is probably lower the U.S. EIA expected.

 

[Brucey]

CATL: $10/kWh sodium; not sure what the round trip efficiency is, but if you have enough solar it won't make a difference. The < -40°C might be of interest too.


This goes back to the LCOEs and LACEs, it didn't use to make sense ... but times change and $10/kWh is probably lower the U.S. EIA expected.

Starting in areas where range isn't such a factor:

How electric scooters are driving China's salt battery push

The country is racing ahead of the rest of the world in bringing sodium-ion batteries to the mass market. This time, through scooters.

www.bbc.com

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

CATL: $10/kWh sodium; not sure what the round trip efficiency is, but if you have enough solar it won't make a difference. The < -40°C might be of interest too.

From the tests I've done on NaI cells I have been able to get my hands on, they will have to improve a bit still before I use them. Cycle life is not really what is claimed. Maybe newer versions have fixed that.

 

[svetz]

Starting in areas where range isn't such a factor:

I was surprised to hear they were being used in vehicles and lithium is ligher and better in just about everyway...currently CATLs mainly selling the new generation of them to two car manufacturers. Really want to see the specs. The ones you can buy off amazon are way to expensive.

$10/kWh is a big deal.

For example, the gas you burn in your generator, where I live it's $3/gallon. Burning it my generator I get ~ 6.5 kWh/gallon. I burn it once and it's gone, so $0.46/kWh storage (and gas goes bad). Can't wait to get rid of it.

Assume the sodium battery lasts 3000 cycles, that's $0.003/kWh storage over the lifetime. Even for nuclear it's important as they don't load follow well, using batteries in the mix with them makes them more versatile and less dependent on other grid power stations.

From the tests I've done on NaI cells I have been able to get my hands on, they will have to improve a bit still before I use them. Cycle life is not really what is claimed. Maybe newer versions have fixed that.

Like most new tech, it'll keep getting better. Based strictly on chemistry, I don't think they can surpass lithium (unless sodium gets to solid state mass production before lithium), but they can be cheaper (although, as sodium batteries become more popular it decreases the demand for lithium so it's price will fall).

 

[Hedges]

Starting in areas where range isn't such a factor:

How electric scooters are driving China's salt battery push

The country is racing ahead of the rest of the world in bringing sodium-ion batteries to the mass market. This time, through scooters.

www.bbc.com

Why electric scooters are driving China's salt battery push:

MSN

 

[svetz]

Why electric scooters are driving China's salt battery push:

I doubt it, they could have just used LFP to avoid fires. Also, the cause hasn't been confirmed as an EV for the Chongqing fire, at this time it's unknown. Although, doubtful it was electric since it was extinguished in 21 minutes.

Same for the Morning Midas, sure EVs get blamed but the ship only had 70 EVs, 681 hybrid vehicles, and the rest of the 3,000 were ICE. The actual cause still isn't known.

 

[chill633]

Although, doubtful it was electric since it was extinguished in 21 minutes.

That's not an absolute measure. EV fires can be extinguished quickly, if you have the proper tools.

 

[svetz]

That's interesting, thanks for posting! I thought the "it didn't make the news" quote was humorous, wonder why that is? Using the thermal imaging is smart, less than 20 gallons of water is really impressive.

 

[augiedoggy]

I live nearby a major power plant. Whenever there is a hurricane in Louisiana the power plant will load share and send power there. We will then experience regular 8-12 hour rolling blackouts. This event is what I built my self-propelled power station to handle.

Also had rolling blackouts during the 2021 Great Houston freeze where it was +13F and the cart powered my furnace to prevent the pipes from bursting.

I have a similiar solar powered cart but I converted mine to 78v and have yet to find a new inverter for it to use for AC