RV setup

[Bobert]

I re-read your post. Help me understand. With an AIO, what happens if I just wire the ATS to the AIO and then to the dist panel? Does it fry the AIO? My gen is an onboard 5500w generator (you mentioned in your post).

This video explains the problem with using a generator with a AIO.

I use a inverter generator it produces clean power at full capacity. I then decrease the charge rate so I can run my loads without causing the generator to overload. It works but not without a little tweaking.

 

[Zwy]

He misses the ability to change charge current and load. The recommended genset size is the charge current plus load. One can change charge current to minimum and loads to minimum and utilize a much smaller generator for the times one is needed.

 

[Bobert]

He misses the ability to change charge current and load. The recommended genset size is the charge current plus load. One can change charge current to minimum and loads to minimum and utilize a much smaller generator for the times one is needed.

That’s what I did. But If you do that it is no longer a set and forget system that way. Not the type of system signature solar can be proud of. Apparently the damage from dirty power is obvious upon a simple autopsy and will void your warranty if it happens. These limitations are not a dealbreaker for me but should be a part of the knowledge of someone considering such a system.

 

[Rhavin]

That’s what I did. But If you do that it is no longer a set and forget system that way. Not the type of system signature solar can be proud of. Apparently the damage from dirty power is obvious upon a simple autopsy and will void your warranty if it happens. These limitations are not a dealbreaker for me but should be a part of the knowledge of someone considering such a system.

So, is there no wiring work around? A way to run shore power, the generator, and the AIO to the dust panel without frying things?

 

[John Frum]

I will interject that the easiest integration for a 50A RV will be a Victron Multiplus II which is only 12V right now. The MPII has a 50A pass through and know how to handle a single phase 30A input from shore power. They are coming out with a 24V version later this year if you are willing to wait.

Here are 2 other options.
MP2 is really good but these are pretty spiffy also.

4200 Watt, 120/240 VAC Split Phase 48V Inverter/Charger

Get full utilization of 120/240 VAC appliances at your remote or off-grid location with the Samlex EVO-4248SP split phase inverter charger.

samlexamerica.com

Inverter/Chargers

Explore Xantrex inverter/chargers - the ultimate all-in-one solution combining inverter, battery charger, and transfer switch functionalities. Perfect for powering your household appliances and seamlessly switching between AC power and battery backup. Available in various sizes to meet your...

www.xantrex.com

I would like to know if the panel can handle double pole breakers.
I would also like to know the specs of the generator.
Is it 120VAC or 120/240VAC and what is its continous rating in watts?

@Rhavin please post a picture of your ac/dc distribution panel with the door open so that we can see the fuse and breaker maps along with the breaker phyiscal topology.
Since you have slides and jacks you will need a 12 volt subsystem complete with battery as I think its unreasonable to expect a converter to handle those loads.

 

[corn18]

Here are 2 other options.
MP2 is really good but these are pretty spiffy also.

4200 Watt, 120/240 VAC Split Phase 48V Inverter/Charger

Get full utilization of 120/240 VAC appliances at your remote or off-grid location with the Samlex EVO-4248SP split phase inverter charger.

samlexamerica.com

Inverter/Chargers

Explore Xantrex inverter/chargers - the ultimate all-in-one solution combining inverter, battery charger, and transfer switch functionalities. Perfect for powering your household appliances and seamlessly switching between AC power and battery backup. Available in various sizes to meet your...

www.xantrex.com

I would like to know if the panel can handle double pole breakers.
I would also like to know the specs of the generator.
Is it 120VAC or 120/240VAC and what is its continous rating in watts?

@Rhavin please post a picture of your ac/dc distribution panel with the door open so that we can see the fuse and breaker maps along with the breaker phyiscal topology.
Since you have slides and jacks you will need a 12 volt subsystem complete with battery as I think its unreasonable to expect a converter to handle those loads.

I always want to post those as well, but forget what they are. Agree, they are good options.

@Rhavin I think an AIO is not a great option for your setup. A good inverter/charger for the AC/DC side plus a good solar setup will be a better fit. At least that is where I am leaning right now.

Please post the pick that @smoothJoey requested and I think we can get to designing a kick arse system.

 

[Bobert]

You won’t fry the AIO if you don’t supply it with dirty power. There are lots of work arounds all with different advantages. You could do what I did and use a inverter generator that way the power is clean until you exede the rating of the generator at wich point the generator will stop producing power altogether. This is no problem for the AIO as that is precisely the situation it is designed for (intermittent grid power) one advantage of this way of doing it is that the inverter generators generally have better fuel economy and are quieter than the standard generator. A more expensive but set it and forget it method is to directly charge the batteries from the generator and not go through the AIO at all with ac power from the generator. 50 amp shore power will work fine with the AIO with a moderate charge setting. A 30 shore power requires significant power management on the part of the user of a 50 amp rv regardless of if a AIO is involved or not so in that cas a very conservative charge rate and standard power management practices will work fine. In the case of not managing shore power properly the consequence is loss of shore power because of a tripped breaker not the frying of the AIO. Dirty power from the generator is the main problem to work around. You can also use a separate transfer switch and simply not use the AIO when connected to the generator and or shore power.

 

[corn18]

You won’t fry the AIO if you don’t supply it with dirty power. There are lots of work arounds all with different advantages. You could do what I did and use a inverter generator that way the power is clean until you exede the rating of the generator at wich point the generator will stop producing power altogether. This is no problem for the AIO as that is precisely the situation it is designed for (intermittent grid power) one advantage of this way of doing it is that the inverter generators generally have better fuel economy and are quieter than the standard generator. A more expensive but set it and forget it method is to directly charge the batteries from the generator and not go through the AIO at all with ac power from the generator. 50 amp shore power will work fine with the AIO with a moderate charge setting. A 30 shore power requires significant power management on the part of the user of a 50 amp rv regardless of if a AIO is involved or not so in that cas a very conservative charge rate and standard power management practices will work fine. In the case of not managing shore power properly the consequence is loss of shore power because of a tripped breaker not the frying of the AIO. Dirty power from the generator is the main problem to work around. You can also use a separate transfer switch and simply not use the AIO when connected to the generator and or shore power.

The OP has a built in Onan 5500W genset. Not sure replacing that would be the best route.

 

[John Frum]

The OP has a built in Onan 5500W genset. Not sure replacing that would be the best route.

My WAG is an onan will hunt less than your typical contractor genny.

 

[Bobert]

My WAG is an onan will hunt less than your typical contractor genny.

It’s my understanding that it’s not the varying voltage that’s the main problem it’s the quality of the sine wave. As long as the voltage is within the preset specs of the inverter it should work fine as long as the sine wave is crisp and reasonably close to 60 cycles. The varying voltage is actually more of a problem for the devices that the AIO sends the pass through power to as it doesn’t change anything about the power that is passed through.

 

[Rhavin]

I always want to post those as well, but forget what they are. Agree, they are good options.

@Rhavin I think an AIO is not a great option for your setup. A good inverter/charger for the AC/DC side plus a good solar setup will be a better fit. At least that is where I am leaning right now.

Please post the pick that @smoothJoey requested and I think we can get to designing a kick arse system.

Here is the pic I think you’re wanting. And the last few posts from you guys goes right over me haha.

 

[Rhavin]

You won’t fry the AIO if you don’t supply it with dirty power. There are lots of work arounds all with different advantages. You could do what I did and use a inverter generator that way the power is clean until you exede the rating of the generator at wich point the generator will stop producing power altogether. This is no problem for the AIO as that is precisely the situation it is designed for (intermittent grid power) one advantage of this way of doing it is that the inverter generators generally have better fuel economy and are quieter than the standard generator. A more expensive but set it and forget it method is to directly charge the batteries from the generator and not go through the AIO at all with ac power from the generator. 50 amp shore power will work fine with the AIO with a moderate charge setting. A 30 shore power requires significant power management on the part of the user of a 50 amp rv regardless of if a AIO is involved or not so in that cas a very conservative charge rate and standard power management practices will work fine. In the case of not managing shore power properly the consequence is loss of shore power because of a tripped breaker not the frying of the AIO. Dirty power from the generator is the main problem to work around. You can also use a separate transfer switch and simply not use the AIO when connected to the generator and or shore power.

Your last part about using a separate transfer switch. My RV already has an ATS that manages the shore power and the gen. Are you saying add a second ATS, or utilize the existing in such a manner?

 

[corn18]

Here is the pic I think you’re wanting. And the last few posts from you guys goes right over me haha.

That's the same power center I have.

What we are trying to figure out is how to sort through the 50A split phase issue. The left half of your AC panels runs on one leg of the 50A split phase shore power and the right half runs on the other leg. Your Onan generator is a single phase. To power everything in your RV, they use the ATS you already have installed to connect the single phase of the generator to the two phases of your power center. That way everything still works while on the genny, although not all at once.

When you add an inverter to the mix, you have to figure out how you want to wire it into the existing setup. You can use one of the newer inverter chargers and tap into the shore power line before the existing ATS. This will allow the inverter to power the entire camper, but it will need to be one of the newer ones that can pass 220V split phase through with no other modifications.

You can also tap in after the genset and before the existing ATS. This will open up more choices and even the use of an AIO.

Do you have any fancy load shedding / load control system installed? It would have come from the factory that way. Based on what I see in your power center, I don't think you do because that would require a sub-panel somewhere.

I may whip up a couple of diagrams tonight or tomorrow to show your options.

You will not need another ATS. The inverter/charger/AIO all have an ATS built in.

 

[Bobert]

Your last part about using a separate transfer switch. My RV already has an ATS that manages the shore power and the gen. Are you saying add a second ATS, or utilize the existing in such a manner?

The AIO has a internal transfer switch already you connect it to the grid and it switches to grid based on the way you program it. I setup mine as a solar generator immediately after the sore power connection and before my circuit panel I supply generator power from an inverter generator externally through the shore power plug when I need it. You might be able to place the AIO immediately after the shore power input so that if the sore power and the AIO would be isolated by the ATS from the generator so when it is supplying power shore power and AIO power are disconnected automatically. Because you have a 50 amps shore power connection the type of AIO or modular system that will work best for you will be different than what I am used to so I am eager to see what is out there and the options for split phase rvs. It looks like corn18 has some good ideas I’m eager to hear about.

 

[Rhavin]

That's the same power center I have.

What we are trying to figure out is how to sort through the 50A split phase issue. The left half of your AC panels runs on one leg of the 50A split phase shore power and the right half runs on the other leg. Your Onan generator is a single phase. To power everything in your RV, they use the ATS you already have installed to connect the single phase of the generator to the two phases of your power center. That way everything still works while on the genny, although not all at once.

When you add an inverter to the mix, you have to figure out how you want to wire it into the existing setup. You can use one of the newer inverter chargers and tap into the shore power line before the existing ATS. This will allow the inverter to power the entire camper, but it will need to be one of the newer ones that can pass 220V split phase through with no other modifications.

You can also tap in after the genset and before the existing ATS. This will open up more choices and even the use of an AIO.

Do you have any fancy load shedding / load control system installed? It would have come from the factory that way. Based on what I see in your power center, I don't think you do because that would require a sub-panel somewhere.

I may whip up a couple of diagrams tonight or tomorrow to show your options.

You will not need another ATS. The inverter/charger/AIO all have an ATS built in.

Ok, now I think I’m following. I do have a load management system I think. I attached a picture. We are really hoping to go with an AIO if feasible because it seems significantly cheaper, even building a 48v system since we use so much power living in it full time.

 

[Zwy]

That’s what I did. But If you do that it is no longer a set and forget system that way. Not the type of system signature solar can be proud of. Apparently the damage from dirty power is obvious upon a simple autopsy and will void your warranty if it happens. These limitations are not a dealbreaker for me but should be a part of the knowledge of someone considering such a system.

That isn't a current/genset rating problem, dirty power is a genset rectifier problem.

 

[John Frum]

Here is the pic I think you’re wanting. And the last few posts from you guys goes right over me haha.

Ok so the panel will not accept double poll breakers.
For an onan at 5500 watts I will take it as read that the generator is 120VAC.
We still don't know if your RV has 12 volt batteries to help with the high draw DC devices.
Can you please investigate this?

I suggest you get one of these to measure the energy you use.

Vue Energy Monitors - Emporia: Revolutionizing Home Energy

Turn insights into savings. Connect an Emporia Vue Energy Monitor directly to your circuits to automate, manage, and control your home’s energy.

www.emporiaenergy.com

Either boondock off the generator or use mains power to see how much energy you actually use.
That will help us size the new components.

My wild guess is you should fill every available square inch of your roof with panels.
That will likely determine the overall size of the system.

 

[John Frum]

Ok, now I think I’m following. I do have a load management system I think. I attached a picture. We are really hoping to go with an AIO if feasible because it seems significantly cheaper, even building a 48v system since we use so much power living in it full time.

Anybody know what that does?

 

[Rhavin]

Ok so the panel will not accept double poll breakers.
For an onan at 5500 watts I will take it as read that the generator is 120VAC.
We still don't know if your RV has 12 volt batteries to help with the high draw DC devices.
Can you please investigate this?

I suggest you get one of these to measure the energy you use.

Vue Energy Monitors - Emporia: Revolutionizing Home Energy

Turn insights into savings. Connect an Emporia Vue Energy Monitor directly to your circuits to automate, manage, and control your home’s energy.

www.emporiaenergy.com

Either boondock off the generator or use mains power to see how much energy you actually use.
That will help us size the new components.

My wild guess is you should fill every available square inch of your roof with panels.
That will likely determine the overall size of the system.

I do have a 12v battery up near the generator.

My understanding of the pic I posted is a load management system, it will drops loads if I go over?

 

[jberger]

Anybody know what that does?

It's been YEARS since I messed with one of those. . .
I think it has a hall effect sensor that monitors the shore power connection, and connects to a relay box that allows for automated load shedding based on priority. PCI builds a lot of different versions of that system, but they seem to all work the same way.
The default priority is based on the load location input #1 is first, etc. but you can manually select what you want to run by toggling through the 'names' using the select button.
It also does some power delay of high amp circuits and the factory delay is like 3-5 minutes per load. It can get very annoying to have the microwave override the AC for a 30 second cook, then have to wait several minutes for the AC fan to turn back on. But it's better than tripping out the entire camper when the loads exceed the shore connection.