RV-Wire ATS for Generator/Shore Power and DC Inverter

[the1adman]

Hello,

I am new here and just getting into building a more complicate (for me) solar system. I have a 5th wheel toy hauler that currently has a Progressive Dynamics PD5100 transfer switch for the on board generator. The converter is a Progressive Dynamics 4045 lithium setting (14.6V constant). What I am wanting to install is a 2,000W inverter from my battery bank that can tie into the existing AC system, while maintaining AC plug connection and generator. So I am asking questions so I don't waste money buying equipment not suited for this project.

I currently have LiFePO4 560AH battery bank, Victron Smart MPPT 100/50 controller and 400W portable solar panels. My questions are;
1. I think what I would need is another ATS and wire the AC coming out (to panel) of the existing ATS and the inverter to it?
2. I understand the existing converter battery charger should not be on when the inverter is powered creating a loop? I do not want to remember to manually disconnect every time, is there a better way to accomplish this?

Please provide any suggestions on how to best accomplish this project. My budget is by no means unlimited and would like to purchase only what is necessary to do this project safely, correctly and efficiently. Thanks in advance!

 

[HRTKD]

Nope.

If you purchase a Victron Multiplus inverter/charger you would run the output of the ATS into the Multiplus and then from the Multiplus into your RV's main distribution center. Then you can toss the converter in the trash as the Multiplus takes over the duty of charging the battery when on shore power or when you fire up the generator. The Multiplus will produce a much better charge for your LiFePO4 battery bank than that converter will.

I installed a Victron Quattro in my toy hauler. The Quattro has two AC inputs (Multiplus has only one) with an internal transfer switch. So I pulled the factory ATS out of the trailer and wired the generator and shore power directly to the Quattro.

Both of the above options aren't inexpensive.

If you don't want to put in an inverter/charger then you'll have to make sure the converter gets power before the inverter (and after the ATS). Don't go with the idea that you'll just turn off the converter. Because one day, you'll forget.

 

[OTRwSolar]

. . . . converter is a Progressive Dynamics 4045 lithium setting (14.6V constant) . . .

Is this Progressive Dynamic 4045 a single/one-stage 14.60v converter? You mentioned "constant", so sounds like it might be. In any event, if it is a single-stage, that means it'll subject the batteries to 14.60v 24/7/365. No float or absorption stage---not good for cycle life. May be ok to use for backup purposes, but I wouldn't use it as your primary charger.

If this is one of the PD models that can be switched/jumpered from/to 3-stage and single-stage (lithium), I'd suggest using it in the 3-stage (13.20v/13.60v/14.40v) mode. This is a much better option for charging a 12v lifepo4 than a constant 14.60v. Don't worry about the 3-stage's "equalization" mode. This only applies 14.40v for 15 min every 21-24 hours so not a concern. About 4 or 5 years ago Progressive Dynamic used to think 14.60v was the perfect, all-around voltage to charge 12v lifepo4's---it's not.

 

[dktool]

I did exactly as you layout in point #1, also added a relay powered by the inverter to break power to the charger when the inverter is on.

https://a.co/d/iF4sjOG

 

[the1adman]

Nope.

If you purchase a Victron Multiplus inverter/charger you would run the output of the ATS into the Multiplus and then from the Multiplus into your RV's main distribution center. Then you can toss the converter in the trash as the Multiplus takes over the duty of charging the battery when on shore power or when you fire up the generator. The Multiplus will produce a much better charge for your LiFePO4 battery bank than that converter will.

I installed a Victron Quattro in my toy hauler. The Quattro has two AC inputs (Multiplus has only one) with an internal transfer switch. So I pulled the factory ATS out of the trailer and wired the generator and shore power directly to the Quattro.

Both of the above options aren't inexpensive.

If you don't want to put in an inverter/charger then you'll have to make sure the converter gets power before the inverter (and after the ATS). Don't go with the idea that you'll just turn off the converter. Because one day, you'll forget.

Thanks for the advice. This is the one I believe you are referencing? https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...inverter-charger_2kVA-and-3kVA-120V-US-EN.pdf Is there any reason to select or stay away from the compact model? In terms of trashing the converter, could I leave it in place and just remove the battery charge line so that it converts shore power to 12V for the lights etc or would this cause an issue with the Victron inverter/charger?

 

[the1adman]

Is this Progressive Dynamic 4045 a single/one-stage 14.60v converter? You mentioned "constant", so sounds like it might be. In any event, if it is a single-stage, that means it'll subject the batteries to 14.60v 24/7/365. No float or absorption stage---not good for cycle life. May be ok to use for backup purposes, but I wouldn't use it as your primary charger.

If this is one of the PD models that can be switched/jumpered from/to 3-stage and single-stage (lithium), I'd suggest using it in the 3-stage (13.20v/13.60v/14.40v) mode. This is a much better option for charging a 12v lifepo4 than a constant 14.60v. Don't worry about the 3-stage's "equalization" mode. This only applies 14.40v for 15 min every 21-24 hours so not a concern. About 4 or 5 years ago Progressive Dynamic used to think 14.60v was the perfect, all-around voltage to charge 12v lifepo4's---it's not.

Yes, it is the one that has a switch to go from LA (lead acid) and LI (lithium). I believe its single state 13.6 on LA and I know its single stage 14.4 on LI. I agree this is not a good converter and want to at minimum not use the charge function or replace it with a multi stage one. I looks like if I buy another ATS, upgrade the converter and new inverter the Victron Multiplus Inverter/Charger is cost effective.

 

[HRTKD]

Thanks for the advice. This is the one I believe you are referencing? https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...inverter-charger_2kVA-and-3kVA-120V-US-EN.pdf Is there any reason to select or stay away from the compact model? In terms of trashing the converter, could I leave it in place and just remove the battery charge line so that it converts shore power to 12V for the lights etc or would this cause an issue with the Victron inverter/charger?

This is the Multiplus line I was referring to.

I have no experience with the Compact versions. I have had a Multiplus 12/3000, currently have Quattro 48/3000 and Phoenix 12/500.

If you leave the converter in place it will sent power to the 12 volt system, which will back feed into the battery. You could leave it in place but disable it altogether at the AC circuit breaker. It will still pull a small amount of power from the DC side, but it's rather small.

 

[OTRwSolar]

https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...inverter-charger_2kVA-and-3kVA-120V-US-EN.pdf Is there any reason to select or stay away from the compact model? In terms of trashing the converter, could I leave it in place and just remove the battery charge line so that it converts shore power to 12V for the lights etc or would this cause an issue with the Victron inverter/charger?

If you're considering an inverter/charger like the Victron Multiplus II 3000, why do you feel the need to keep the converter? Backup? The battery, solar controller output, inverter input, charger/converter output and the input to the DC power panel in your RV, are all more or less in parallel with each other electrically. Do have any particular reason you want to isolate any of them?

As for the "compact" Multiplus II 3000, we've been using one for over a year. Very happy with it. They're very popular with RV owners---especially the 2x120 version which can natively support a 50a RV pedestal (120/240 split-phase with two in parallel). It offers a number of other enhancements over the older Multiplus in your link.

 

[the1adman]

Thanks everyone! I now understand the point of not keeping the converter connected. I asked because my current set up is a "all in one" with the AC/DC in one and wasn't sure, https://www.progressivedyn.com/pd4000-series/ . I can disconnect the convert and have it as a backup if needed by reconnecting it. My RV is 30A, so I do not need the split phase and think 2000 will be sufficient for our needs.

There is a couple of different 12/2000 Inverter/Charger models on the Victron site. Looks like the Multiplus 12/2000/80 and the newer model Multiplus 2000VA. I believe either will be fine for my use? I can see a use for the smart dongle but is the usb interface a must have?

 

[HRTKD]

Keep in mind that the 2000 in 12/2000 is Volt Amps, not watts. The actual watt rating is below 2,000. For my 12/3000 it's rated at 2400 watts.

My camper is 30 amp also. I've never hit the 2400 limit, but I've come close when I purposely fired up as much as I could. I can run the A/C and the microwave at the same time, as long as I don't start them at the same time. The A/C does have a soft start module.

 

[OTRwSolar]

I can see a use for the smart dongle but is the usb interface a must have?

The Victron Bluetooth Smart Dongle allows some basic control of the Multiplus inverter and charger functions and lets you view operational data (input/output watts, volts, current, etc.) via bluetooth.

Without the Victron MK3-USB dongle (and the Windows Victron Connect app) you cannot program the Multiplus's DC/AC voltage cutoffs, charge voltages, battery type, absorption times, etc. Also need it to perform firmware updates. Some firmware versions are more buggy than others, so this could be very important.

It seems Victron could have easily placed all this functionality into a single bluetooth dongle, but they chose not to. Why, who knows.

 

[the1adman]

Keep in mind that the 2000 in 12/2000 is Volt Amps, not watts. The actual watt rating is below 2,000. For my 12/3000 it's rated at 2400 watts.

My camper is 30 amp also. I've never hit the 2400 limit, but I've come close when I purposely fired up as much as I could. I can run the A/C and the microwave at the same time, as long as I don't start them at the same time. The A/C does have a soft start module.

Nice thought, something for me to think about. The 3,000 isn't a lot more price wise.

 

[the1adman]

The Victron Bluetooth Smart Dongle allows some basic control of the Multiplus inverter and charger functions and lets you view operational data (input/output watts, volts, current, etc.) via bluetooth.

Without the Victron MK3-USB dongle (and the Windows Victron Connect app) you cannot program the Multiplus's DC/AC voltage cutoffs, charge voltages, battery type, absorption times, etc. Also need it to perform firmware updates. Some firmware versions are more buggy than others, so this could be very important.

It seems Victron could have easily placed all this functionality into a single bluetooth dongle, but they chose not to. Why, who knows.

Thanks, after looking through the product manual after reading your post, the MK3 is mandatory, since I have LiFePO4 batteries that will require programming.