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Safe Grid Use of the 5000ES and transformer

Some simple beginner research would inform anyone that 240v single phase inverters should not be used with splitphase. Making them work is a hack with an auto transformer. I would spend a few extra hundred and get the inverter that outputs 120v or splitphase..
That's exactly what I'm doing here...beginner research. ;) A year ago I installed an Enphase grid-tied rooftop system on my house and now I'm wanting to do an off-grid system for my shop.
 
This conversation has me also wondering a couple of other things about these non-UL devices...

1. Would that disqualify insurance claims due to fire caused by equipment not UL listed?
2. Would it disqualify you from claiming an energy tax credit if the equipment wasn't UL listed?

This stuff actually matters to me.
Doubtful. Your insurance covers all your idiocy, even buying non-UL stuff, and stuff like cutting down trees that fall on your own house. The insurance company then subrogates against whoever it can, to recoup. I have 4 or 5 forensics investigations right now, with such activity, one of them on Wall Street, NY ($10mil plus loss). Number 2, who's going to come into your house and verify a tax credit? I'd be surprised if you even got audited for it as a normal course.
 
I did some more digging onto the original application of the Autotransformer. I am fairly certain you should be referencing this diagram below. Solaredge references their intended use of the autotransformer for phase balancing, NOT deriving a neutral. The Neutral/ground bond from the source feed is kept intact, their inverter circuit has neutral reference, unlike the Growatt. So you are correct, their systems ARE safe and permitted across the country, but they are doing this in a MUCH safer manner with equipment designed for the application. View attachment 80787

I was in the process of writing up a larger post to explain the Solaredge StorEdge system, but since HighTechLab already posted the diagram I will try to add what I now know.

First: I feel that because both Solaredge and Victron have build Autotransformers to accomplish supplying 120v from 240v inverters that the use of them is NOT impossible or even a bad idea! (just my two cents)

Second: I was wrong earlier when I said that the Signature Solar schematic was ok.

Hedges (and others) are right it will have one of two major problems.

  1. There will be a N/G service bond at the first disconnect point of the Service (Utility). So if you run a ground wire from the Main Panel ‘through the system’ to the Sub Panel and you have a Neutral/Ground Bond in the Sub Panel you will have a path back to the service Neutral through the Ground wire. Big NoNo! (and two bonding points also a nono)
  2. If you do NOT have a ground running back to the Main Panel than you have no Ground Fault path back to the circuit breakers in the Main Panel feeding the Growatts. They will not trip due to Ground Fault! (and by Ground Fault I mean regular Ground Fault wire contacting a grounded metal surface such as the case of the Growatts, metal raceway conduit or other, not GFCI)
Signature Solar – you can test the by simply running a single (just one) lead form the breaker in the Main Panel to a ‘Separate Ground Rod’. The breaker will not trip. This is essential what you show in your schematic. (Everyone else PLEASE don’t try this it is very dangerous!)​

As for how StorEdge system works: I was finally able to get my hands on a functioning system and test it. It works much as you might expect from the diagram.

The Neutral wires form the Main Panel the Sub Panel and the Autotransformer are all tied together in the Inverter package. They have continuity whether in Grid interactive mode (This is a grid interactive inverter that runs at 240volt only) or in battery backup mode. (or turned off for that matter). There is NO N/G Bond in the Sub Panel.

When operating in Normal Mode the Autotransformer is shut off. Both legs of the 240v taps are disconnected from the Autotransformer. The Neutral Leg seems to remain connected) The Sub panel then runs of the Grid/Solar power using the Grid Neutral.

If the Grid (Utility) gets knocked out the inverter shuts off the Main Panel connection turn on the Autotransformer and switches to Battery operation. The Sub Panel then gets its Neutral form the Autotransformer. (The Neutral wire running from the Sub Panel back to the Main Panel then become nothing more than a long Bonding wire for the Sub Panel back to the Main Panel and nothing more.)


**This is the way I am currently running my system. (I built a control panel for accomplishing this.)
Not something I would recommend to anyone!
 
Doubtful. Your insurance covers all your idiocy, even buying non-UL stuff, and stuff like cutting down trees that fall on your own house. The insurance company then subrogates against whoever it can, to recoup. I have 4 or 5 forensics investigations right now, with such activity, one of them on Wall Street, NY ($10mil plus loss). Number 2, who's going to come into your house and verify a tax credit? I'd be surprised if you even got audited for it as a normal course.
The last tree that fell on my house was a 150' Blue Gum Eucalyptus. Actually just one 75' branch that fell on my house, but the insurance company did pay for the damage caused. Then they informed me that was a 1 time deal. After that I could pay to have the other trees topped because they wouldn't continue to cover my house for tree branch damage. They told me the same thing about my guard dog. They'd pay for 1 bite only then cancel my policy. After that I was on my own. (To be clear, the first bite never took place but I had speculated to the insurance agent after being burgled about turning my german shepards into land sharks.) So insurance companies don't as a rule just pay for any stupid crap you do.
 
Solar Edge schematic shows "Automatic Switchover", "NC" contacts to grid, "NO" contacts to autotransformer.
Never the twain shall meet.

Perhaps it does derive a neutral, or just performs balancing. That depends on what StorEdge outputs.

Hope the "Automatic Switchover" is disabled when "Manual Bypass" is enabled.
Not sure what you mean above..."just performs balancing". How would a transformer perform any kind of balancing? No, I think it's there for exactly the same reason we are using them. Making a neutral for the load panel.
 
The last tree that fell on my house was a 150' Blue Gum Eucalyptus. Actually just one 75' branch that fell on my house, but the insurance company did pay for the damage caused. Then they informed me that was a 1 time deal. After that I could pay to have the other trees topped because they wouldn't continue to cover my house for tree branch damage. They told me the same thing about my guard dog. They'd pay for 1 bite only then cancel my policy. After that I was on my own. (To be clear, the first bite never took place but I had speculated to the insurance agent after being burgled about turning my german shepards into land sharks.) So insurance companies don't as a rule just pay for any stupid crap you do.
Well, I'm going on personal experience, what my own agent told me, using those very words, and the activities all my insurance company clients seem to take in my forensics work. Never heard of your one bite rule in homeowner's insurance, I guess that's a way to avoid claims and save money? My point is, insurance companies don't, in any of my experience so far, go to the homeowner and second guess whether they should cover your stupid act in normal course. Of course, fraud, or arson might be rejected .And yeah, I guess they have the right also, to just cancel your policy outright. What's the term they use for "too many claims", I forget.:cool:
 
Not sure what you mean above..."just performs balancing". How would a transformer perform any kind of balancing? No, I think it's there for exactly the same reason we are using them. Making a neutral for the load panel.
Yeah the only balancing that can be done is for the end user to split constant equal 120vac loads in equal number between L1 and L2. Beyond that there is no such thing in our world. The neutral carries the imbalance between L1 and L2. If L1 has a 25amp draw and L2 has a 40amp draw the imbalance will be 15amps and it will show on the grounded neutral conductor with your ammeter.
 
Well, I'm going on personal experience, what my own agent told me, using those very words, and the activities all my insurance company clients seem to take in my forensics work. Never heard of your one bite rule in homeowner's insurance, I guess that's a way to avoid claims and save money? My point is, insurance companies don't, in any of my experience so far, go to the homeowner and second guess whether they should cover your stupid act in normal course. Of course, fraud, or arson might be rejected .And yeah, I guess they have the right also, to just cancel your policy outright. What's the term they use for "too many claims", I forget.:cool:
Anything involving a fire is going to require a Fire Dept Forensic report in order to make an insurance claim.
If the cause is determined to be an odd modification to the electrical system (Eg. Huge burned up Transformer and Inverter) and it was done without proper paper work and inspections you can end up with a claim denial. Lots of people think oh well I would never admit to do anything wrong. You would be surprised what happens when people are questioned by someone in authority and that person is writing down their statement.

The denial of payment can be challenged by your lawyer and you will typically get paid before it gets to court, but it could end up costing you a bunch of money and time. Now if someone dies in that fire I would imagine it opens up a whole new set of problems.
 
Well, I'm going on personal experience, what my own agent told me, using those very words, and the activities all my insurance company clients seem to take in my forensics work. Never heard of your one bite rule in homeowner's insurance, I guess that's a way to avoid claims and save money? My point is, insurance companies don't, in any of my experience so far, go to the homeowner and second guess whether they should cover your stupid act in normal course. Of course, fraud, or arson might be rejected .And yeah, I guess they have the right also, to just cancel your policy outright. What's the term they use for "too many claims", I forg

Anything involving a fire is going to require a Fire Dept Forensic report in order to make an insurance claim.
If the cause is determined to be an odd modification to the electrical system (Eg. Huge burned up Transformer and Inverter) and it was done without proper paper work and inspections you can end up with a claim denial. Lots of people think oh well I would never admit to do anything wrong. You would be surprised what happens when people are questioned by someone in authority and that person is writing down their statement.

The denial of payment can be challenged by your lawyer and you will typically get paid before it gets to court, but it could end up costing you a bunch of money and time. Now if someone dies in that fire I would imagine it opens up a whole new set of problems.
Have to agree with robby...I assisted/accompanied several fire/accident investigators during my electrical career after a burn-out. Those guys know what they're looking for!
 
What kind of shorts circuit are you going to do? L1, L2 shorted the grounded chassis (bonded and un-bonded between two ground rods)? Shorted to the un-grounded chassis? etc. Voltage reading and leakage current test between chassis and ground?
Are we still going to see the pictures of the PCB where the screw is removed, and pictures of the bottom side of the PCB? Pictures of the chassis so we can see if the standoff is removed or not?
BTW, live wire shorted to the chassis is one of the test I perform in the lab to verify that the breaker will trip and no wires will burn up, it is part of the UL test.
All of this. We are doing tons, will have videos, pictures and more. Just a lot to do and we will be posting them in the future.
 
I went to SS web site and looked for the 48v SPF 5000 ES to look at the Spec Sheet and when it went to where the spec sheet should display a message is displayed that says, NO PREVIEW AVAILALBE, FILE IS IN OWNER'S TRASH. Why are they hiding the spec sheet now??
We have someone who is not involved with ANY of this post/forum/issue who is trying to organize our google drive. That being said - we are also going to post stuff like this as files on our website, not google drive links in the future just so this doesn’t happen. This issue is a clerical one, not malicious. I’ll get the link updated Monday, but until then the spec sheet is linked here.
 

Attachments

  • Growatt SPF 3500-5000ES SpecSheet.pdf
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Some simple beginner research would inform anyone that 240v single phase inverters should not be used with splitphase. Making them work is a hack with an auto transformer. I would spend a few extra hundred and get the inverter that outputs 120v or splitphase..
Assuming too much and thinking people have not done due diligence is foolish. Did Will, Poz or any of the other people using these find this problem? No, Growatt certainly never mentioned it when I talked to them 1yr ago.
 
SS also assumes too much without due diligence to verify that the product is safe without performing the test until now a shown in post #130, SS should also ask Growatt as to what kind of safety test Growatt had performed on these modified units.
 
Assuming too much and thinking people have not done due diligence is foolish. Did Will, Poz or any of the other people using these find this problem? No, Growatt certainly never mentioned it when I talked to them 1yr ago.
Assuming people have done due diligence is imo foolish.. Actually as soon as Poz installed the ES there was a lot of comments telling him this was a bad idea and why. I think Will was only using the ES for 240v only loads without a transformer
 
Sunny Boy/Sunny Island is a great system.
It has high starting surge for motors, and AC coupling is particularly good for AC loads during the day (e.g. running air conditioner)
Component ratings were optimized for European market, where one 6kW SI and two 6kW SB would work well backfeeding grid.
Here in the US, two 6kW SI and two 6kW SB for on grid, but if strictly off-grid it could handle four 6kW SB. The extra two could be used in a grid-backup system if manually (slowly) switched from direct grid tie to output of Sunny Island.

For now, it is the Sunny Island 6048-US model offered here. That is to be installed indoors (because front panel has openings), and I don't think there are features for peak shaving or backfeeding grid from battery with power stored from earlier.
I would imagine that the European models like 8.0 come to the US eventually, probably have those features and UL-1741-SA listing as well as being sealed for outdoor use.

Plan and price out whatever system you imagine installing eventually (including battery). There are various limits on wattage of inverter, battery charging, pass-through from grid. Depending on the price-point and performance you want, a hybrid of a different brand might fit better.
MPP Solar LV6548 is TUV-us certified as meeting UL1741 as does the LVX6048WP.

Growatt does have UL listed equipment that meets CA Rule 21. Those are grid tie, not off grid inverters.
 
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Assuming too much and thinking people have not done due diligence is foolish. Did Will, Poz or any of the other people using these find this problem? No, Growatt certainly never mentioned it when I talked to them 1yr ago.
I've known about it for at least a year. Then I saw the Poz video and thought, wow, that is not really a good idea. Then I watched the Poz Sol Ark video and the subsequent one where he used the autotransformer on the Sol Ark and had to disconnect the Sol Ark neutral. Again, I thought wow, that really is not a good idea........

You actually didn't look into why some sellers of the 5000 ES and the PIP8048 say these units are 240V only or only Euro application? You never thought of looking into it?
 
Yeah the only balancing that can be done is for the end user to split constant equal 120vac loads in equal number between L1 and L2. Beyond that there is no such thing in our world. The neutral carries the imbalance between L1 and L2. If L1 has a 25amp draw and L2 has a 40amp draw the imbalance will be 15amps and it will show on the grounded neutral conductor with your ammeter.

If user had an inverter capable of delivering 3kW on phase 1 and 3 kW on phase 2, but had a 4kW imbalance in his 120V loads, an auto-transformer could help balance the load. Transformer will have a voltage sag vs. current. How the inverter responds to current would play into this. If inverter maintained full voltage right up to the point where it shut down, no balancing by transformer. But if it permitted voltage to sag, balancing could occur.
 
It looks to me that some companies import these 240V units made for Euro and for Euro wiring system and selling them in the US without informing the customer how the units are wired, I.E. Neutral is tied Ground, or notify that the units have been modified. SS website does not mention (I did not see such info) anything about the modification of the unit they imported in.
 
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It looks to me that some companies import these 240V units made for Euro and for Euro wiring system and selling them in the US without informing the customer how the units are wired, I.E. Neutral is tied Ground, or notify that the units have been modified. SS website does not mention (I did not fin such info) anything about the modification of the unit they imported in.
Ian is quite upfront about it, take this model: https://watts247.com/product/pip-3024gk/ Note he even has a video explaining how split phase works in the USA.

Then you go to the 5000ES: https://watts247.com/product/spf-5000-es/

European or 240V appliances only.
 
Ian is quite upfront about it, take this model: https://watts247.com/product/pip-3024gk/ Note he even has a video explaining how split phase works in the USA.

Then you go to the 5000ES: https://watts247.com/product/spf-5000-es/

European or 240V appliances only.
Yes, Ian company made it clear as what the unit is mode for, he also said he did not like the unit can be made to use in US by just removing the ground screw.
SS imported the unit from Growatt by having the modification done, which at this we do not exactly what is actually done, removing the ground screw only?
Once SS shows the pictures and details about the modified unit then that will clear about the safety concern.
And now SS saying they are going to perform the tests as shown in post #94 & #130.
I would have thought those test would have been done on the first modified unit received from GroWatt already.
 
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