Sailboat upgrade to EVE LiFePO4 600ah @ 12v - design review
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I have seen some posts referring to keeping the batteries around 70%, this one is one of them: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/lifepo4-long-term-storage.27179/post-411965
that being said, I am really new to LiFePO4, thus, my understanding is based on comments from others, but cannot validate any of them
cheers
that being said, I am really new to LiFePO4, thus, my understanding is based on comments from others, but cannot validate any of them
cheers
captainrivet
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Simplify your life and replace the epever with Victron MPPT. More output and Victron can be shut off under load, epever frys….
In MPPT the Victron are by far superior to all others….suggest also 1 MPPT per 1 panel as this optimses output which can be up to 25% more.
If you are away from the boat put the Victron MPPT in „storage mode“ means it maintains the battery at Max 70% SOC all by itself without BMS involved. Best way to keep everything happy.
But before we continue chose your BMS because how things are done and controlled and who actually does it depends highly on BMS.
My recommendations are Electrodacus (150 Euro), REC (500Euro) or Taos BMS(800Euro), all the best bang for the buck in their class.
Chose according to your budget…
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Hi @captainrivet
Thanks for the feedback.
I did end up buying the Tao BMS, not the cheapest, but I felt it was the best option for me, and Philippe is extremely helpful, thus, I feel I got the best option.
As for the MPPT...well, I have been trying to keep the costs down, and convince myself that the EPever (which I have been unhappy with for years) was still a suitable option...but about 10 min ago, I placed the order for a Victron SmartSolar 150/45A.
I will most likely need to upgrade my solar to 1kw, as I want to replace the gas cooker in the boat by an induction hob, and microwave oven. But I will see how the current solar array manages my requirements (and replenish the savings kitty) before buying more panels and an additional Victron MPPT (which will help with redundance backup)
Cheers
WildBillNick
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I just joined and your thread basically mirrors what I am doing. I currently have some old 12 volt solar that is pretty beat up after sailing around the world so I have two new 340 watt panels and 60 amp mppt for the house. Previous owner had 4 gc2's for house, 2 gc2's for engine ( he kept the battery switch on all for capacity anyway) and a 31 series for windlass. I just ordered 12 230 ah cells and 3 100 amp bms's for the 690 ah house bank. I'll run a new 31 series for crank and another for the windlass. Alternator direct to crank battery and DC to DC boxes to house and the windlass, not planning to upgrade the alternator anyway. Can't anticipate a need to have additional crank battery charging, perhaps a boost solenoid. Now I'll go take a more intense look at everyone's suggestions lol!
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captainrivet
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Tao, good choice.
electric galley with induction hob and microwav/convection oven is great but needs a serious low frequency inverter= loads of amps needed and serious money spend…not cheap…you need an inverter with a lot surge power…3kw minimum. Cheapest so lala sunpowergold 700-1000 or next Victron or Samlex Starting from 1500 on. Forget Chinese HF inverter….
and you need every solar watt you can stick on and harvest…cheapest power. All parallel installed, never in series on a boat.
Victron MPPT, I think you mean 150/85, right?
better get 2x 50/100 or even 3x30/100, one per panel is better, more output and redundanc.
Lots of information in this thread, most of it is good advice. The thing is, it depends. How large are your loads? how often will you use it? Offshore use, coastwise, or inshore?
Just a couple notes. You DO NOT need to disconnect the PV array before a battery disconnect. At least with Victron, that has been tested an proven by many people, including myself. The charging should NEVER disconnect anyway. Do not allow the BMS to turn off charging when the battery is full. The charge sources need to be configured to do that themselves, and the BMS is a safety to disconnect in the event of a failure. There are only a few exceptions to this. Mostly, they have to do with the BMS holding charging at a lower than max voltage until balancing is complete so a disconnect doesn't happen. It is very rare that this will matter, unless you have very large loads and very high capacity chargers (=>1C) The other is in some alternator configurations, the BMS needs to turn off the alternator before a disconnect.
FWIW, my system is 300Ah of CALB cells, overkill solar BMS, 700W of solar with 2 Victron controllers. A balmar alternator and regulator. The Solar charges the house bank, and the alternator charges the start battery (flooded LA). It is rare that I need to charge the LFP with the engine. On sunny days I can use an induction plate to cook. On cloudy days I revert to LPG. The induction plate draws about 70A on the 900W setting, which cooks plenty well.
I couldn't justify the cost or complexity of the Tao or REC BMS. I'm not convinced that complexity makes them any better or more reliable, except in isolated cases. I do feel that buying the best quality cells possible is important for long term reliability, and that means avoiding Alixxx and the low priced cells that are most popular here. I am a long distance circumnavigator. I have almost a year and 4000 ocean miles on the system. I work it hard. Never had a single disconnect either. Voltage difference is 0.002V when at 14.2V charge. My battery bank still tests at 350Ah, 50Ah more than rated capacity.
Just a couple notes. You DO NOT need to disconnect the PV array before a battery disconnect. At least with Victron, that has been tested an proven by many people, including myself. The charging should NEVER disconnect anyway. Do not allow the BMS to turn off charging when the battery is full. The charge sources need to be configured to do that themselves, and the BMS is a safety to disconnect in the event of a failure. There are only a few exceptions to this. Mostly, they have to do with the BMS holding charging at a lower than max voltage until balancing is complete so a disconnect doesn't happen. It is very rare that this will matter, unless you have very large loads and very high capacity chargers (=>1C) The other is in some alternator configurations, the BMS needs to turn off the alternator before a disconnect.
FWIW, my system is 300Ah of CALB cells, overkill solar BMS, 700W of solar with 2 Victron controllers. A balmar alternator and regulator. The Solar charges the house bank, and the alternator charges the start battery (flooded LA). It is rare that I need to charge the LFP with the engine. On sunny days I can use an induction plate to cook. On cloudy days I revert to LPG. The induction plate draws about 70A on the 900W setting, which cooks plenty well.
I couldn't justify the cost or complexity of the Tao or REC BMS. I'm not convinced that complexity makes them any better or more reliable, except in isolated cases. I do feel that buying the best quality cells possible is important for long term reliability, and that means avoiding Alixxx and the low priced cells that are most popular here. I am a long distance circumnavigator. I have almost a year and 4000 ocean miles on the system. I work it hard. Never had a single disconnect either. Voltage difference is 0.002V when at 14.2V charge. My battery bank still tests at 350Ah, 50Ah more than rated capacity.
Hi there
yes, currently I have a Mastervolt 12/1500 inverter, but I will need to upgrade, most likely towards the end of the year. I will be looking at a Victron also, in order to match the equipment
for the MPPT, I got the Victron SmartSolar MPPT 150/45 for my 2 x 270w panels, I can fit another 400w on my arch, but not financially, so when I get the next set of panels, I will get a 2nd Victron (Covid is damaging the finances... ). Also considering a windvane in the future, I heard that energy production is not massive, but everything helps
Cheers
Hi Wholybee
thanks for the info
my cells are very similar to yours, just EVE instead of CALB. I went with 600ah just to ensure plenty of capacity for the rainy season, at times we do not see the sun for 2 weeks..... but based on my estimations over the past 3 years (bear in mind that I am a weekend cruiser and the odd week off), usually overnight I just consume a few % of the bank (440 lead acid, now defunct), and that is including playing a movie for the kids on the TV at night, and charging tables and phones (somehow, it seems that we only remember to do so at night...). The unknown will be when I start playing with the induction hob. I have a single one that goes up to 2000w, so I will be able to test the consumption under different settings. I am also switching the pressure cooker, for an electric one, the consumption of these is extremely low, and will help me also reduce the needs.
Overall, by end of the year I am hoping to have just over 1kw of solar, and if kitty allows, 400w~ of wind
Cheers
WildBillNick
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On our coach I have 560 watts solar and 4 gc2's. I installed a12 volt element in the hot water heater and on a sunny day I can bring the batteries back up to full from 60%, heat up the water and run the fridge on 120 through the inverter. Our sailboat has a seperate compressor for fridge and freezer and will be getting a 12 volt element for the hot water heater as well.
Hi @WildBillNick
that is a very good and substantiated information. Part of my plan will be to control the water heater and fridge remotely via Internet (starting to look at the Raspberry Pis, but again, boat kitty for now is null), as I only use the boat on weekends, or emergencies when I finish work too late (strangely enough, my boat is closer to my office than my house... by about 40min.....) and I need to crash in the boat instead of going home...nothing better than a nice warm shower and a cold beer. I have a 12v fridge and 12v freezer, but upgrading the heating element to 12v might be a good point, I was planning on running it now using the inverter
Regards
Andres
that is a very good and substantiated information. Part of my plan will be to control the water heater and fridge remotely via Internet (starting to look at the Raspberry Pis, but again, boat kitty for now is null), as I only use the boat on weekends, or emergencies when I finish work too late (strangely enough, my boat is closer to my office than my house... by about 40min.....) and I need to crash in the boat instead of going home...nothing better than a nice warm shower and a cold beer. I have a 12v fridge and 12v freezer, but upgrading the heating element to 12v might be a good point, I was planning on running it now using the inverter
Regards
Andres
My induction plate has 600, 900, and 1800 W settings. I only use the 900W setting. It doesn't affect the temperature at all. The higher wattage is for heavier, bigger cookware. It takes more energy to move electrons in a larger mass of steel. But even with a decent sized pan cooking for a small group of 4, 900W seems perfect.
My decision to go with CALB was because I felt it important to buy through an official factory channel. Not Alibaba or Aliexpress, or even Amazon or ebay. But, a dealer in the USA that gets them directly from CALB. In fact, I think they were drop shipped to me, and the dealer never even saw them. It cost me A LOT more, but I know that I didn't get factory seconds or cells with an unknown history. They came in a large wooden crate, sealed at the CALB factory, with factory test results of each cell inside. They all tested 20% higher than rated capacity, and internal resistance was essentially identical between them.
Anyway, I have friends with the EVE cells and they are happy with them. I just don't trust my life to them if I am 1500 miles from land.
@WildBillNick How many Ah does it take to heat your hot water at 12V, and how quickly does it do it? How many Ah per day? How many watts is the 12V element? I have a 1500W 120V element, and while I can run it with an inverter, its about 115 amps at 12V. That would consume a hell of a lot of power throughout the day(even though it would be off most of the time and only come on when the water cooled to a certain point.)
My decision to go with CALB was because I felt it important to buy through an official factory channel. Not Alibaba or Aliexpress, or even Amazon or ebay. But, a dealer in the USA that gets them directly from CALB. In fact, I think they were drop shipped to me, and the dealer never even saw them. It cost me A LOT more, but I know that I didn't get factory seconds or cells with an unknown history. They came in a large wooden crate, sealed at the CALB factory, with factory test results of each cell inside. They all tested 20% higher than rated capacity, and internal resistance was essentially identical between them.
Anyway, I have friends with the EVE cells and they are happy with them. I just don't trust my life to them if I am 1500 miles from land.
@WildBillNick How many Ah does it take to heat your hot water at 12V, and how quickly does it do it? How many Ah per day? How many watts is the 12V element? I have a 1500W 120V element, and while I can run it with an inverter, its about 115 amps at 12V. That would consume a hell of a lot of power throughout the day(even though it would be off most of the time and only come on when the water cooled to a certain point.)
HI @wholybee
Yes, as a matter of fact, I have ended up getting CALB cells, as the EVE304a were not in stock any longer. My supplier is from Alibaba, but it seems to be an official re-seller, they have guaranteed the usual (cells match, brand new, etc.), but I will need to wait and see once these arrive next week
for the water heater, I agree that running this on 12 v will be a very heavy load. This is to be run on trigger once the batteries have reached certain charge. this will help to maximize the solar provided by the panels. Otherwise, I am also looking at diesels 'on-demand' hot water heaters
cheers
Yes, as a matter of fact, I have ended up getting CALB cells, as the EVE304a were not in stock any longer. My supplier is from Alibaba, but it seems to be an official re-seller, they have guaranteed the usual (cells match, brand new, etc.), but I will need to wait and see once these arrive next week
for the water heater, I agree that running this on 12 v will be a very heavy load. This is to be run on trigger once the batteries have reached certain charge. this will help to maximize the solar provided by the panels. Otherwise, I am also looking at diesels 'on-demand' hot water heaters
cheers
captainrivet
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I ordered a Victron Multiplus 12/3000/16 and will boost it with my existing 3500W/7000W peak Hf Edecoa inverter.Hi there
yes, currently I have a Mastervolt 12/1500 inverter, but I will need to upgrade, most likely towards the end of the year. I will be looking at a Victron also, in order to match the equipment
for the MPPT, I got the Victron SmartSolar MPPT 150/45 for my 2 x 270w panels, I can fit another 400w on my arch, but not financially, so when I get the next set of panels, I will get a 2nd Victron (Covid is damaging the finances... ). Also considering a windvane in the future, I heard that energy production is not massive, but everything helps
Cheers
Victron has the so called power assist function where it supports a weak shorepower/grid connection and you can adjust the limit on his remote control from 4-16A when the Victron kicks in and Supports the weak grid. Well the weak grid is in this case is supplied by my 2nd 3500W inverter and I have it on 10A, that means the 3500W inverter runs on max 2300W and everything that’s needed above comes from the Victron.
In standard use its just the Victron suppling the boat with 2400W 230V. If I need more I simply switch on the 2nd inverter which supplies then 2300W and routes it through and the Victron adds the additional 2400W, so 4,7kw but I can raise the support to 16A and then I have 3,5kw+3kw=6,5kw available
I just have a switch that selects between real grid and my fake grid from my 2nd inverter….you just have to manually shut of the integrated grid charger in the Multiplus. Well I am 95% offgrid and normally don‘t connect to shorepower, even if I am at a Marina….so the gridcharger is always off. It’s actually only there to be used as 3rd emergency charge source via a portable Honda EU20 gasoline generator.
Can you tell me the make/model of your induction plate?
HI @captainrivetI ordered a Victron Multiplus 12/3000/16 and will boost it with my existing 3500W/7000W peak Hf Edecoa inverter.
Victron has the so called power assist function where it supports a weak shorepower/grid connection and you can adjust the limit on his remote control from 4-16A when the Victron kicks in and Supports the weak grid. Well the weak grid is in this case is supplied by my 2nd 3500W inverter and I have it on 10A, that means the 3500W inverter runs on max 2300W and everything that’s needed above comes from the Victron.
In standard use its just the Victron suppling the boat with 2400W 230V. If I need more I simply switch on the 2nd inverter which supplies then 2300W and routes it through and the Victron adds the additional 2400W, so 4,7kw but I can raise the support to 16A and then I have 3,5kw+3kw=6,5kw available
I just have a switch that selects between real grid and my fake grid from my 2nd inverter….you just have to manually shut of the integrated grid charger in the Multiplus. Well I am 95% offgrid and normally don‘t connect to shorepower, even if I am at a Marina….so the gridcharger is always off. It’s actually only there to be used as 3rd emergency charge source via a portable Honda EU20 gasoline generator.
that is very interesting, but in which case would you need such draw?
I will only have 600ah, thus I would run out of capacity in about 1 hour
what is the size of your battery bank? and most importantly, size of solar array? any other chargers on board?
cheers
Whoa. I like this solution. But the Victron Mutiplus "adds" it's power capacity onto the incoming shore power capacity in Volt-Amps? I would naturally just assume that the the Victron would boost a weaker grid power source to the maximum of the Victorn's own inverter power rating. I didn't understand you could have power above and beyond the shore power input. If that's how the boost feature works, then your sir get the prize for optimal solution for boat/rv INMO. It sure beats trying to parallel two AIO's (e.g. MPP's) to get more capacity in peak load situations. And I already have a 3000W HF inverter that would serve as that shore power input. Brilliant!I ordered a Victron Multiplus 12/3000/16 and will boost it with my existing 3500W/7000W peak Hf Edecoa inverter.
Victron has the so called power assist function where it supports a weak shorepower/grid connection and you can adjust the limit on his remote control from 4-16A when the Victron kicks in and Supports the weak grid. Well the weak grid is in this case is supplied by my 2nd 3500W inverter and I have it on 10A, that means the 3500W inverter runs on max 2300W and everything that’s needed above comes from the Victron.
In standard use its just the Victron suppling the boat with 2400W 230V. If I need more I simply switch on the 2nd inverter which supplies then 2300W and routes it through and the Victron adds the additional 2400W, so 4,7kw but I can raise the support to 16A and then I have 3,5kw+3kw=6,5kw available
I just have a switch that selects between real grid and my fake grid from my 2nd inverter….you just have to manually shut of the integrated grid charger in the Multiplus. Well I am 95% offgrid and normally don‘t connect to shorepower, even if I am at a Marina….so the gridcharger is always off. It’s actually only there to be used as 3rd emergency charge source via a portable Honda EU20 gasoline generator.
If you try this, though, absolutely make sure the victron is configured for “Inverter Only” mode. This isn’t accessible from the front panel switches, and can only be done via the menus in something like a cerbo gx. Otherwise, the victron will use the AC input from the other inverter to charge the batteries, thus just wasting energy into heat.
captainrivet
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You are thinking too complex….no poodling in menus and alike.
You can simply shut on/off only the charger in the Multiplus via it’s AUX1 remote control port
, my Electrodacus BMS does this too to tell the Multiplus to stop grid charging when the LifePo4 house bank is full.So when I flip the selector switch from grid to fake grid a little optocopler (=relay) shuts off the charger in the Multiplus via the AUX1.
I am checking at the moment if I can change that so if I put on my 2nd Edecoa inverter via its remote on only then it switches off the charger in the Multiplus. Means the Edecoa remote controls the charger of the Multiplus. Like this I can keep the selector in fake grid but still have the charger working if I want to and only if I switch on the Edecoa inverter the Multiplus charger gets switched off…I never need the grid charger on when the Edecoa inverter is working.
Why I wanna change that, because I need to flip the switch to fake grid and switch on the Edecoa so I can boost the Multiplus.
I like to keep it in fake grid and automatically disable the charger when I switch on the Edecoa inverter. Or I change it this way that I automatically switch on Edecoa and switch off charger in Multiplus when I flip the switch to fake grid….both would work.
I recommend to choose your boost HF inverter wisely ( it must be pure sine wave inverter) and don‘t use the cheapest Chinese crap….the classic HF failure is when the bridged mosfets burn/short and the HF high voltage leaks through…no idea if you kill the Victron Multiplus like this or if it has an input protection for this kind of flaws, a weak shorepower can have such things too. Use this setup at your own risk.
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captainrivet
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How is that price rated
A Victron Quattro 12/5000 would be welcomed…Actually a friend of mine does exactly this since 3 years with a Victron Quattro 12/5000 and boosts it with his „old“ Mastervolt 12/2000 to 7kw….
That’s needed when his wife gets the cooking flash and runs all the 4 burner of the Siemens induction cooking top and the full size Neff convection oven in parallel…then he is pulling 800A constant out off his 12V/1000AH Winston cells. 1S4P and measured capacity 1300AH…
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