Salt Water batteries
- Thread starter dirk
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Getyourbone
Hard to offend but hard to bend...
Would love to know more...
Seems like a great solution for inexpensive bulk stationary storage...
Everything is a trade off...what is is with this?..
Seems like a great solution for inexpensive bulk stationary storage...
Everything is a trade off...what is is with this?..
dirk
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In basis there are three technologies that do more or less the same: charge and discharge a volume of salt water.
The upsides are
Downsides are
Where I see the most benefit is in solarbanks on a neighborhood level and at solar panel fields and windparks, that can use it as a buffer to not overload the grid they are coupled on.
The upsides are
- that it's more or less environmentally friendly,
- the used materials are cheap and abundant,
- it can't catch fire (salt water can't burn),
- has a lifespan that is longer than Lithium, and
- can be discharged almost to the max.
Downsides are
- A lack of suppliers: at the moment there are only three that I know of that have product on the market, so the price is high.
- Volume: you need about three to four times the space Lithium needs.
Where I see the most benefit is in solarbanks on a neighborhood level and at solar panel fields and windparks, that can use it as a buffer to not overload the grid they are coupled on.
Getyourbone
Hard to offend but hard to bend...
For powerwall kind of applications, about the only downside I can find is the operating temp but that is found with all sorts of chemistries so it’s not like it’s a new issue or wouldn’t need to be addressed anyway.
Electric Night
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Liquid cathode and anode batteries are coming there is nearly no cycle life considerations density is an issue however.
(some people refer to these as Flow batteries)
This video has a good example of how many of these batteries work.
(some people refer to these as Flow batteries)
This video has a good example of how many of these batteries work.
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I hate to resurrect something this far back, but I have to express thanks for Professor Jay Whitacre for trying to be forward looking. The story of Aquion (get it - water & ions) can be found in Wikipedia. But goes-ta-show ya, that research and business aren't always the best partners.
And the Aquion batteries had nothing to do with redox or flow batts. They are based on intercalation techniques, just like our common lithium batteries are, but with common chemicals.
But here is the main scientist, Jay Whitacre hanging out with us DIY'ers explaining LiFeP04. This is a classic vid to have if you are a true battery geek:
Thanks Prof. Don't give up!
And the Aquion batteries had nothing to do with redox or flow batts. They are based on intercalation techniques, just like our common lithium batteries are, but with common chemicals.
But here is the main scientist, Jay Whitacre hanging out with us DIY'ers explaining LiFeP04. This is a classic vid to have if you are a true battery geek:
Thanks Prof. Don't give up!
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Open-Source Battery? That's what this is!
Don't miss the big picture here. What he demonstrated to diy'ers about LFP was well understood. The big lead here is that if you can get a grip on how intercalation works, you can easily go to a salt-water electrolyte and other differing common materials to build a performant battery.
Which in the case of Aquion, took it from the lab to market to make it real. Ok, so you aren't going to stuff these in the trunk of a Tesla and do a battery swap.
That's not what it was designed for.
What you have is a battery made of easily available, non-toxic chemicals that no nation can hoard or force another nation to go to war for. Or exploit and damage the health of miners or assemblers.
If one was irresponsibly discarded into a farmers field, it wouldn't hurt the plants or livestock - well maybe other than being a disgusting salt-lick.
It is also not complicated to make, nor is anything proprietary! And THAT is the problem - there is no proprietary competetive advantage to making these. Well, I suppose one could black-box it with proprietary internal chargers and connectors, but I digress.
Any manufacturer currently making Lithium based batteries, could easily switch materials to make these. But probably not at a competetive price, or want to introduce something that could take away sales from it's current lineup.
Professor Whitacre has shared all his materials on how they build these online already. And that's the kiss of death from a business standpoint. I've got a feeling that in his work, he's used open-source software before, and to me the Aquion is kind of an open-source battery!
I wouldn't mind having one if they were still around, just for the fun of it. Maybe I can convince EVE or some other LFP maker to whip up a bunch for us battery nerds.
Don't miss the big picture here. What he demonstrated to diy'ers about LFP was well understood. The big lead here is that if you can get a grip on how intercalation works, you can easily go to a salt-water electrolyte and other differing common materials to build a performant battery.
Which in the case of Aquion, took it from the lab to market to make it real. Ok, so you aren't going to stuff these in the trunk of a Tesla and do a battery swap.
That's not what it was designed for.What you have is a battery made of easily available, non-toxic chemicals that no nation can hoard or force another nation to go to war for. Or exploit and damage the health of miners or assemblers.
If one was irresponsibly discarded into a farmers field, it wouldn't hurt the plants or livestock - well maybe other than being a disgusting salt-lick.
It is also not complicated to make, nor is anything proprietary! And THAT is the problem - there is no proprietary competetive advantage to making these. Well, I suppose one could black-box it with proprietary internal chargers and connectors, but I digress.
Any manufacturer currently making Lithium based batteries, could easily switch materials to make these. But probably not at a competetive price, or want to introduce something that could take away sales from it's current lineup.
Professor Whitacre has shared all his materials on how they build these online already. And that's the kiss of death from a business standpoint. I've got a feeling that in his work, he's used open-source software before, and to me the Aquion is kind of an open-source battery!
I wouldn't mind having one if they were still around, just for the fun of it. Maybe I can convince EVE or some other LFP maker to whip up a bunch for us battery nerds.
chrisski
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I can see what the company went out of business. Each stack in the picture can only put out 677 watts tops, so even though one stack has enough power tp get me through the day, because I have a high draw microwave at 2200 watts from the battery I run four times for 2 minutes, I’d need 4 of those stacks to power my RV. If I stop using the microwave, and go with my K cup maker, the lowest wattage model will be slightly more than one stack can handle, so two stacks.
Those batteries would only be good for very low outputs.
Those batteries would only be good for very low outputs.
Exactly right! Long term draw. He didn't design them for high-amperage. Being very familiar with LFP, and other batteries on spacecraft while working at JPL, he does know the difference.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the other elements of design were the biggest priority: demonstrating that a non-toxic, non-proprietary, performant battery could be made using intercalation techniques simply. Often this is side-railed immediately by trying to compare it to redox batteries, or molten-salt by competitors. Any mention of salt gets the competitors attention.
I can't speak for him, but I think marketplace success wasn't the goal - certainly he knew how non-competetive this would be. Smart cookie - anyone using the Unix operating system might see how this is a long-term seed plant.
What is truly interesting getting back to LFP, was that he knew that A123 was trying to engineer the initial formation of the SEI layer using different charging techniques - most likely trying to make that layer more porous or micro-fiber like if you will for faster intercalation, rather than leaving the SEI layer to it's own devices upon first contact. Fascinating.
In fact, I *think* this may be the term used by some manufacturers if you see "ageing" as a process prior to categorizing as grade-a or grade-b. It may be using specialized initial charging techniques, not just a cc/cv for a cycle or two to do something similar. But I have no proof of that.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the other elements of design were the biggest priority: demonstrating that a non-toxic, non-proprietary, performant battery could be made using intercalation techniques simply. Often this is side-railed immediately by trying to compare it to redox batteries, or molten-salt by competitors. Any mention of salt gets the competitors attention.
I can't speak for him, but I think marketplace success wasn't the goal - certainly he knew how non-competetive this would be. Smart cookie - anyone using the Unix operating system might see how this is a long-term seed plant.
What is truly interesting getting back to LFP, was that he knew that A123 was trying to engineer the initial formation of the SEI layer using different charging techniques - most likely trying to make that layer more porous or micro-fiber like if you will for faster intercalation, rather than leaving the SEI layer to it's own devices upon first contact. Fascinating.
In fact, I *think* this may be the term used by some manufacturers if you see "ageing" as a process prior to categorizing as grade-a or grade-b. It may be using specialized initial charging techniques, not just a cc/cv for a cycle or two to do something similar. But I have no proof of that.
Lets say you can use a battery of the salt water type to charge up a small amp-hour LiTO bank. Then you could suddenly use your 2kW owen or angle grinder for a limited period of time, and while you inspect the work, or serve the meal the salt water battery could anew charge up the Power dense LiTO.
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