Schneider xw pro 6848 not powering up with eg4 lithium battery

[Mr-Sandman]

@Koldsimer have you tried turning the MAIN breaker on your Schneider panel ON, with the EG4 batteries breakers all shut off, then turn on on the batteries breakers? Another works power the batteries up with the XW already connected to them? I thought you said you tried that, but that's not the order you demonstrate in the videos.

One other thought.... I noticed while changing a breaker out on my Schneider charge controller it had a considerable in-rush with large arc when I accidentally hooked a wire to the breaker with it on. I think the charge controllers have some caps and considerable inrush current also.

It seems when you turn the main breaker in the panel on you are supplying power to the XW Pro AND the 2 Midnights at the exact same time. That might be too much in rush??? IF you can shut the DC connection off to the midnights and ONLY power the XW Pro up, can you try that? Maybe they are not turned on with that main breaker, I re-watched you video. Anyway a thought.

Just trying to help troubleshoot this, I know this is frustrating for you.

 

[Koldsimer]

@Koldsimer have you tried turning the MAIN breaker on your Schneider panel ON, with the EG4 batteries breakers all shut off, then turn on on the batteries breakers? Another works power the batteries up with the XW already connected to them? I thought you said you tried that, but that's not the order you demonstrate in the videos.

One other thought.... I noticed while changing a breaker out on my Schneider charge controller it had a considerable inrush with large arc when I accidentally hooked a wire to the breaker with it on. Another words, I think the charge controllers have some caps and considerable inrush current also.

It seems when you turn the main breaker in the panel on you are supplying power to the XW Pro AND the 2 Midnights at the exact same time. That might be too much in rush??? IF you can shut the DC connection off to the midnights and ONLY power the XW Pro up, can you try that?

Just trying to help troubleshoot this, I know this is frustrating for you.

Yep. tried it that way as well. Tried it with just one battery and every combination imaginable with same result every time.

The midnite classic 150 charge controllers are powered by the panels so they don't attempt to power up until i throw the breaker for them to connect to the panels or at least that's how i understand it. @SpongeboB Sinewave explained it way back in this thread somewhere i believe.

But yeah, i have tried it that way with the same result.

Every scenario i have tried has resulted in the same outcome- the inverter just clicks and the batteries alarm light turns on. The charge controllers must be on and supplying power from the panels for the inverter to fire up with the eg4 batteries connected.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

IF the Midnights have a connection to the batteries, I would remove that connection to where it's ONLY the XW Pro getting power during the power up cycle on the BATTERY side. Just to be clear, I don't know anything about the Midnights, but the goal is to make sure they are physically disconnected from batteries "even if not turned on" during the initial power up.

 

[Koldsimer]

IF the Midnights have a connection to the batteries, I would remove that connection to where it's ONLY the XW Pro getting power during the power up cycle on the BATTERY side. Just to be clear, I don't know anything about the Midnights, but the goal is to make sure they are physically disconnected from batteries "even if not turned on" during the initial power up.

Each charge controller has two breakers, one on the pv+ side and one on the battery+ side so yeah, i can completely isolate them from the battery when powering up. That's always been the way i've done it in the past and that was the method recommended by the company i purchased the equipment from.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

OK, so they are isolated from battery during power up. There goes that theory.

 

[Koldsimer]

OK, so they are isolated from battery during power up. There goes that theory.

LOL yeah, im running out of theories but i appreciate the ideas.

 

[GVSolar]

I don't know what to do. I asked last thursday for an update and I offered a resolution. Was told they would get back to me monday. Heard nothing all day monday. Sent a dm to Richard today and he said he would forward my issue to the tech dept.


@GVSolar how did that work out for you?

@robby we are literally no closer to resolving this issue as far as i can tell. They don't offer me pro-active updates at all. I have to dm them or email them and I have heard everything from the weather is bad, people are sick, it was over the head of the tech guy you talked to, we are growing fast, we sell thousands of batteries with no problems, we are waiting on the inverter, the inverter is here but we have other priorities (es5000, 48v charger)

Sorry for the late reply, but Life gets Lifey from time to time.

SS did respond to me - both from @signaturesolarrichard and james showalter.

"On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:30 AM, James Showalter <james@signaturesolar.us> wrote:
Bill, I see where we made a mistake here, this is on us for sure.
We need to do a better job of product documentation and marketing the difference between the GYLL, EGyll and LIFEPOWER4 models. As far as I am concerned we are on the hook for return and re-shipment of a new version or a $300 refund, whichever you prefer."

I took the $300 refund, as I had already installed the Lifepower4 unit in my basement crawl space. Schlepping those batteries required some mechanical patience - I am 68 years old.

As to the monitoring situation - I built a workaround - a usb/serial hub adapter and some careful positioning of the different software versions on screen allows me to monitor all the batteries simultaneously. (A bluetooth Thornwave DCPM and a Schneider Combox keeps me informed upstairs - without being bent over.)

Another note: I've worked with a number of solar vendors in my 30+ years off-grid. Signature Solar, although having made mistakes from time to time, has always been willing to work through any technical or performance difficulties with me. Compare them to other independents (eg. Big Battery) and I think you'll see the difference. BTW, I don't have any personal or business relationship with either. Just a regular guy keeping the lights on.

Best to all.

 

[Koldsimer]

Glad you got it fixed gvsolar. Seems like a fair resolution for your issue.

 

[GVSolar]

I hope they get yours worked out soon. Best.

Glad you got it fixed gvsolar. Seems like a fair resolution for your issue.

 

[Koldsimer]

I grabbed a single discover lithium 130ah battery for testing purposes and found it started up the inverter without issue. So the crown cr430 and the discover lithium will power up the inverter but not the eg4 lifepower.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

There's something up with the EG4's in your setup for sure.

2 things,

1, Have you verified what this setting is set to in your LifePower4 batteries?: Setting is "CHG_UT_Delay" and by default is 4000ms.

Maybe yours is set different? I'd double check that.

2. Have you tried turning your midnight charge controller on FIRST "WITHOUT the solar hooked up, just the batteries breaker on". THEN power the XW? Maybe the midnights will trigger the initial pre-charge and not pull as much, then the XW can power? I don't fully understand what triggers the pre-charge timer or how it work, so I'm just guessing on things to try here.

 

[acdoctor]

Update: So I just personally went out to our back warehouse and did many tests with the EG4LL's and with the Lifepower4's. I'll post a few quick videos below and a text explanation.
For testing purposes, we used the Schneider straight out of the box with no changes to any of the settings. For the batteries, we also verified that they were using the default settings for the firmware as well as any modifiable settings such as timings and voltage or current. Essentially, these are the settings you would have for BOTH the inverter and batteries straight out of the box. For our tests, we used 1, 2, and 3 batteries in succession and had them set up using the cabinets we offer and the included busbar. Again - there have been no external modifications. In both tests, you will see that we have 6 batteries in the cabinets - however during testing we only had 1, 2, and 3 turned on at a time. The cabinets we have in our shop currently are modified 3 battery cabinets, and the bottom 3 batteries were not connected to the top 3 in any way.

Test Subject 1 - EG4LL batteries (these were already in place and ready to go, so I did them first)
Test Parameters - Using 1, 2, and 3 batteries, attempt to power on the inverter. Attempt to measure load of 1 single 1500w Space Heater. Attempt to operate electric dryer while space heater is on. Attempt to operate circular saw while space heater and dryer are operating. Measure peak DC current, and report.
Test Results - 1 battery: Upon starting 1 battery, the Schneider inverter began to power on normally. After several seconds a humming noise indicated it was fully operating and ready to invert. Turn on space heater. Successfully operated space heater. Turn on dryer. 1 battery failed to operate both battery and space heater.
2 batteries: Upon starting 2 batteries, the Schneider inverter began to power on normally. After several seconds a humming noise indicated it was fully operating and ready to invert. Turn on space heater. Successfully operated space heater. Turn on dryer. 2 batteries successfully allowed operation of space heater and dryer. Attempt to operate circular saw. Failed to operate circular saw, inverter tripped and full load was lost. After a few moments, the Schneider restarted and operated the space heater again and dryer was able to be started again.
3 batteries: Upon starting 3 batteries, the Schneider inverter began to power on normally. After several seconds, a humming noise indicated it was fully operating and ready to invert. Turn on space heater. Successfully operated space heater. Turn on dryer. 2 batteries successfully allowed operation of space heater and dryer. Attempt to operate circular saw. Successfully started and maintained circular saw operation for 10+seconds.

Test Subject 2 - LifePower4 batteries
Test Parameters - Using 1, 2, and 3 batteries, attempt to power on the inverter. Attempt to measure load of 1 single 1500w Space Heater. Attempt to operate electric dryer while space heater is on. Attempt to operate circular saw while space heater and dryer are operating. Measure peak DC current, and report.
Test Results - 1 battery: Upon starting 1 battery, the Schneider inverter began to power on normally. After several seconds a humming noise indicated it was fully operating and ready to invert. Turn on space heater. Successfully operated space heater. Turn on dryer. 1 battery failed to operate both battery and space heater.
2 batteries: Upon starting 2 batteries, the Schneider inverter began to power on normally. After several seconds a humming noise indicated it was fully operating and ready to invert. Turn on space heater. Successfully operated space heater. Turn on dryer. 2 batteries successfully allowed operation of space heater and dryer. Attempt to operate circular saw. Failed to operate circular saw, inverter tripped and full load was lost. After a few moments, the Schneider restarted and operated the space heater again and dryer was able to be started again.
3 batteries: Upon starting 3 batteries, the Schneider inverter began to power on normally. After several seconds, a humming noise indicated it was fully operating and ready to invert. Turn on space heater. Successfully operated space heater. Turn on dryer. 2 batteries successfully allowed operation of space heater and dryer. Attempt to operate circular saw. Successfully started and maintained circular saw operation for 10+seconds.

For your consideration, I have included video evidence showing our quick set up. Please excuse the background noise. Also, in the final video, during the video we attempted to turn on the circular saw before the 3rd battery was fully started. We were able to operate the saw using only 3 batteries. Linked to youtube because the files are too large to attach here.

At this point we are going to have an internal discussion to see what our next steps will be for testing and to fix these issues on an internal level. I invite anyone who hasn't already messaged me that is experiencing issues with this set up to please MESSAGE ME DIRECTLY with contact information so I can solve this issue for you in one way or another.

Youtube Links:
Lifepower4:

EG4LL:

AGAIN - IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCING THIS ISSUE, MESSAGE ME DIRECTLY SO I CAN TRY AND FIND OUT WHAT EXACTLY IS CAUSING THIS ISSUE!
EDIT: If there is something we are doing wrong to test this, please also let me know so I can FIX IT and retest.

It appears the wires are #2 awg about 10 feet each. The OP may be using wire with less resistance. I currently have FLA connected to my SW6848+ with 2 parallel sets of 2/0 awg. I haven’t calculated the resistance difference.

 

[Quattrohead]

That delay is way too much.
It will depend on the total capacitance of the inverter and the value of the resistor so we can only guess.
So I am going with 20,000uF of capacitance and a 50ohm resistor. This would need a charge time of 1000ms.
If the capacitors are 10,000uF and resistor is 10ohms then the delay needs to be 100ms.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

I agree 4000ms seems like a long time. @signaturesolarrichard I assume the Setting "CHG_UT_Delay" = 4000ms can be adjusted in the BMS. Can you provide the procedure to turn this to 3000ms or even 2000ms to see if this fixes the issue?

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I agree 4000ms seems like a long time. @signaturesolarrichard I assume the Setting "CHG_UT_Delay" = 4000ms can be adjusted in the BMS. Can you provide the procedure to turn this to 3000ms or even 2000ms to see if this fixes the issue?

We can do this as well. I will note, however, that the units we successfully tested were using this setting.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

We can do this as well. I will note, however, that the units we successfully tested were using this setting.

I understand. But as you can see in @Koldsimer video his is not. Additional a Discover Lithium battery and his old Lead Acid batteries power it up just fine, so there is something in HIS system that the EG4's are not working with right.

 

[Koldsimer]

It appears the wires are #2 awg about 10 feet each. The OP may be using wire with less resistance. I currently have FLA connected to my SW6848+ with 2 parallel sets of 2/0 awg. I haven’t calculated the resistance difference.

Mine are 4/0 at 10'. I wonder if that matters?

 

[Mr-Sandman]

Mine are 4/0 at 10'. I wonder if that matters?

No, that's plenty. No issue with that. I don't think having less resistance would matter either.

 

[Koldsimer]

There's something up with the EG4's in your setup for sure.

2 things,

1, Have you verified what this setting is set to in your LifePower4 batteries?: Setting is "CHG_UT_Delay" and by default is 4000ms.

Maybe yours is set different? I'd double check that.

I have not verified this setting. Hopefully, i can get into the bms today and verify. Having tested all 4 batteries independently, all four would have to be set wrong but it's worth checking.

2. Have you tried turning your midnight charge controller on FIRST "WITHOUT the solar hooked up, just the batteries breaker on". THEN power the XW? Maybe the midnights will trigger the initial pre-charge and not pull as much, then the XW can power? I don't fully understand what triggers the pre-charge timer or how it work, so I'm just guessing on things to try here.

Have not tried that yet. Interesting idea. Will give it a shot this afternoon. Thanks

 

[Hedges]

That delay is way too much.
It will depend on the total capacitance of the inverter and the value of the resistor so we can only guess.
So I am going with 20,000uF of capacitance and a 50ohm resistor. This would need a charge time of 1000ms.
If the capacitors are 10,000uF and resistor is 10ohms then the delay needs to be 100ms.

0.020 uF x 50 ohm = 1 second time constant.
With that, voltage rises to within 1/e of final voltage, about 1/3 of the way left to go.

At 4 seconds, (1/3)^4 = 0.012 remaining, so 98.8% charged
I would call that "about right" rather than way too much. Assuming 50 ohms, and assuming relatively small 20,000 uF.
I think 100,000 uF is more likely in a large low-frequency inverter.
A fast digital meter, maybe one with a bar graph, could show the charging. Analog would be preferred.

"Too long" a delay is only if somebody gets impatient, like inverter automatically starts operating with loads connected.