Schneider XW Pro - End of Sale???

[jzampieron]

To the guy who was wondering what the idle power consumption of the XW Pro is - it's in the manual! 28W at idle running full time

Also I really like some of these installs in this thread, but guys - I really hope that is fire-rated plywood you're installing your Conext hardware onto, like the installation manual states.

I used plywood for the walls and ceiling and then painted it with in-tumescent paint. Then I put cement board on top of that.

That's well above code for fire proofing.

 

[jzampieron]

One problem I see with more than 2 XW Pros ... is trying to use bypass with a PDP.

If I want a Bypass mode, I'm going to have to use an external DPDT transfer switch. Not the end of the world but does complicate wiring further.

 

[GRMRC]

One problem I see with more than 2 XW Pros ... is trying to use bypass with a PDP.

If I want a Bypass mode, I'm going to have to use an external DPDT transfer switch. Not the end of the world but does complicate wiring further.

BCS200. Works great. Wattnode included. 200 amp passthrough.

 

[jzampieron]

BCS200. Works great. Wattnode included. 200 amp passthrough.

I'm sure it does. I wasn't thinking of anything that complicated. Just a basic old transfer switch if something goes wrong with the inverters and I need to still run my critical loads off grid while I service the system.

I should have put one in to begin with... I kind of forgot.

 

[GRMRC]

I'm sure it does. I wasn't thinking of anything that complicated. Just a basic old transfer switch if something goes wrong with the inverters and I need to still run my critical loads off grid while I service the system.

I should have put one in to begin with... I kind of forgot.

I have whole house backup so BCS is clean, not complicated.

 

[ElectricIslander]

At the deeper technical level - the Xanbus has a bus master that starts an exchange - then all the devices talk in the order of their device number - there is a limit to the number of devices that can be addressed by the frequency the Xanbus runs at..... if there aren't enough devices to full the time windows there is just silence until the next window starts. All other devices time their talking off the inital squawk from the master.

This is similar to how USB 1.0 works on a computer except that allowed 127 devices to talk in their turn and the root hub would basically wait for 2 empty spaces and end the pole cycle and start again.

This number allows for up to 20 devices with the insight home on the single channel it has. The insight facility has 2 channels running Xanbus independent of each other, but it does share the data from one bus to the other as needed. This is why they recommend all inverters be on one channel and the MPPT be on the other channel if there are collisions and you have trouble with the connections.

For the cables - standard ethernet with 568A wiring on both ends is what is recommended - this should be cat 5E or cat 6. cat 5e has 4~5 twists per inch on their pairs of wires in it where cat 6 has 5 or more twists per inch. The twists help eliminate noise.

The canbus cable that Xanbus is based on uses 1.5 to 2 twists per inch and are 120Ω impedance because of it. Cat e5 or cat 6 cable have an impedance of 100Ωs so it is close enough to work, but can cause reflections and interference on the cables.

Something that can cause problems with this is the minimum bend radius which is typically 4 x the diameter of the outer sheath of the cable. This works out to about a 1in radius - so think about wrapping 90 degrees around a 1 inch pipe. Sharp bends can look like a short to the frequencies and reflect back to the source. So those of you with trouble on the Xanbus when everything _should_ work look at the bend radius and see if anything is kinked or bent at a sharp 90 degree corner.


The terminator is basically a 120Ω across the signalling wires - canbus/Xanbus is 2 wires with a 120Ω resistor. This keeps the the signals from reflecting back once they reach the end of the cable plus giving it a reference voltage when the devices talk.

For your rs485 devices like the tigo tap/cca stuff they use 3 wires with 120Ω resistors between the wires so you have the center as a signal and the other two wires as your high and low reference - this should use 120Ω wire ideally but the 100Ω wire like cat5 will work.

Thanks! - This is a really useful resource on Xanbus networking that's very helpful in understanding it all. It sounds like you really know this stuff.
I currently have been getting some puzzling repeated error messages that my AGS has lost communication. There must be some packets getting dropped although the AGS functions fine, and everything else including the Insight, last on the chain next to the AGS is still in full communication. I can't quite figure out what to do about it other than the usual clean contacts and perhaps swap out cables routine.

I have Cat5e or Cat 6 cables coiled into 6" coils between the units and each cable is longer than the 3 foot minimum. The other end of the chain is the XWP which has the terminator installed. As I recall, my Xanbus setup is configured like this:

XWP <-> Lynk BMS <->MPPT <-> AGS <-> Insight (my second AGS for my Onan isn't connected yet)

 

[robbob2112]

I had forgotten the minimum cable distance - this is also to avoid reflections which are interferance

I assume you have tried swapping around cables to see if your gripe follows the cable or not? if this is the case, just replace the cable

How about plugging in a different order to see if the gripe moves to the one closest to the insight? If this is the case make the cable to the insight a bit longer.

Swap out a cable and see if the gripe disappears?

If they are self made cables - put the ends back in the crimper and give it a squeeze or just cut the ends off and recrimp.'

A nick or cut into the copper where you stripped it can cause reflections even though the cable tests good with an ethernet checker. The cheap ones of those are just glorified ohm meters. The better ones actually setup an ethernet connection across the cable at 100MB/s or 250MB/sec or 1G/sec ... just depends on how much you paid for it.

 

[Gttnsun]

I'm sure it does. I wasn't thinking of anything that complicated. Just a basic old transfer switch if something goes wrong with the inverters and I need to still run my critical loads off grid while I service the system.

I should have put one in to begin with... I kind of forgot.

There is a reason the bcs is used for more then 2 XWP, I think i saw it in the BCS webinar. The reason is there is no guarantee all of the 60 amp relays will close at the same time and it could burn up 1 of the relays.

 

[robbob2112]

Thanks! - This is a really useful resource on Xanbus networking that's very helpful in understanding it all. It sounds like you really know this stuff.
I currently have been getting some puzzling repeated error messages that my AGS has lost communication. There must be some packets getting dropped although the AGS functions fine, and everything else including the Insight, last on the chain next to the AGS is still in full communication. I can't quite figure out what to do about it other than the usual clean contacts and perhaps swap out cables routine.

I have Cat5e or Cat 6 cables coiled into 6" coils between the units and each cable is longer than the 3 foot minimum. The other end of the chain is the XWP which has the terminator installed. As I recall, my Xanbus setup is configured like this:

XWP <-> Lynk BMS <->MPPT <-> AGS <-> Insight (my second AGS for my Onan isn't connected yet)

Warning - old Navy story from 1992ish.

I just used to work in a calibration lab and on TDR and FDR equipment. Time Domain Reflectometer and Frequency Domain Reflectometer.

The TDR you hook to a piece of coax and it would tell you if there is a break, kink or a bend within a thousand foot or so. And how far down the cable to look.

The FDR was used to sweep radio and radar lines - you hook it up to the coax and set it to sweep the frequencies the gear is supposed to operate at. It would tell you if there were any dead spots in the spectrum. Sometimes you could fix a dead spot by loosening the coax clamps and moving the cable a few inches one way or the other so the arc of the cable was more or less.

Both were used to service A7 Corsiar II and F-18 fighters on the base when I was there. When I was in a squadron working on ES-3a aircraft I worked on a gripe where the pilot said the radio signal was weak on the right side of the aircraft. Everything checked good according to the manuals so I checked out a TDR and FDR and swept the lines (there was no procedure for this) ... there was an access hatch on the belly of the plane where you could disconnect most of the RF lines where they went through a bulkhead.

At any rate I swept all the lines on that airplane and the one sitting next to it in the hanger.... identified that one of the antennas on the right side had a bad connection or was faulty. So the pilot was right. So we dismounted the antenna and I swept the line with just a load connector and it was good. Swept the antenna and it was good. ... connect it back up and get a bad reading again.... head scratcher... until I noticed the skin of the airplane was shiny under the antenna where all the others it was green anodized. So we applied the anodize solution, waited the correct time and then hooked everything back up... good readings all the way around .... it was something to do with how the skin of the plane was interacting with the antenna on the side.

I got to spend a week writting up everything and submitted it to Lockheed so they could play with it. Just before I got out a year later there was a tech pub suplament on how to sweep the RF lines on the plane to identify bad lines and antennas.

The ES-3A looked like a porcupine with all the different antennas sticking out of it ... and electronics warefare plane... they use drones these days for the jobs.

It was a fun time and taught me a ton being in for those 6 years.

 

[GRMRC]

There is a reason the bcs is used for more then 2 XWP, I think i saw it in the BCS webinar. The reason is there is no guarantee all of the 60 amp relays will close at the same time and it could burn up 1 of the relays.

That is correct. Anyone grid tied with more than 1 XWpro should be using the BCS.

 

[PreciseD]

That is correct. Anyone grid tied with more than 1 XWpro should be using the BCS.

why not have a panel with three 60 amp breakers feeding the 3 inverters that way it could never see more than 60 amps each.

 

[GRMRC]

why not have a panel with three 60 amp breakers feeding the 3 inverters that way it could never see more than 60 amps each.

Good luck with that when the grid shuts down.

 

[PreciseD]

Good luck with that when the grid shuts down.

I thought the BCS was if you are using the inverters for backup power if the grid goes down. If I am using the solar/inverters/batteries as my main source, with grid as my backup, do I still need a BCS?

 

[Gttnsun]

I thought the BCS was if you are using the inverters for backup power if the grid goes down. If I am using the solar/inverters/batteries as my main source, with grid as my backup, do I still need a BCS?

 

[GRMRC]

I thought the BCS was if you are using the inverters for backup power if the grid goes down. If I am using the solar/inverters/batteries as my main source, with grid as my backup, do I still need a BCS?

So you are load shaving=0 amps to run with no grid kW. Still need the BCS to pull grid power when needed.

 

[PreciseD]

So you are load shaving=0 amps to run with no grid kW. Still need the BCS to pull grid power when needed.

I watched the video, and I feel it didn't explain why it would be needed in my use case or I am just not understanding it. Is it somehow not allowing back feed if the grid goes down? Or do these inverters not operate when the grid goes down, like a safety interlock or something?

 

[BKY2003]

why not have a panel with three 60 amp breakers feeding the 3 inverters that way it could never see more than 60 amps each.

My understanding was that no matter how many inverters are stacked, 60amps are the limit amps. So the insight home sees there are more than one inverter and only allow 60amps. Where as the BCS lifts this limitation and increases the amps to 200amps. So please correct me if that is incorrect or partially correct.

 

[Gttnsun]

I watched the video, and I feel it didn't explain why it would be needed in my use case or I am just not understanding it. Is it somehow not allowing back feed if the grid goes down? Or do these inverters not operate when the grid goes down, like a safety interlock or something?

My understanding is if you are trying to run a 200 amp service through 3 xwp, what could happen is when the inverters go into pass through mode they could pull 200 amps through one or 2 relays momentarily burning them up. I don't think you are supposed to run 3 seperate breakers into the inputs of 3 inverters, but if you did there's no guarantee it will not pull 200 amps through 1 breaker and relay momentarily, and if 2 breakers trip you a running all the power through 1 breaker and relay.
If you are not trying to power a 200 amp panel then it might not be a problem.
Also not a problem off grid, if you are not charging at high rates

 

[PreciseD]

My understanding is if you are trying to run a 200 amp service through 3 xwp, what could happen is when the inverters go into pass through mode they could pull 200 amps through one or 2 relays momentarily burning them up. I don't think you are supposed to run 3 seperate breakers into the inputs of 3 inverters, but if you did there's no guarantee it will not pull 200 amps through 1 breaker and relay momentarily, and if 2 breakers trip you a running all the power through 1 breaker and relay.
If you are not trying to power a 200 amp panel then it might not be a problem.
Also not a problem off grid, if you are not charging at high rates

Oh ok. I don't think I am going to run them in bypass mode, basically run them off-grid, but with the grid as a potential backup (lockout the inverters and completely bypass them to the main (sub) panel) to keep the lights on if there is a system failure. If I needed the grid to charge the batteries, I could use a chargeverter, which I think gives me a little better control of charging the batteries. Again I am still piecing all this together, I have ZERO experience with solar, so I apologize in advance for my ignorance on the subject.

 

[Gttnsun]

Oh ok. I don't think I am going to run them in bypass mode, basically run them off-grid, but with the grid as a potential backup (lockout the inverters and completely bypass them to the main (sub) panel) to keep the lights on if there is a system failure. If I needed the grid to charge the batteries, I could use a chargeverter, which I think gives me a little better control of charging the batteries. Again I am still piecing all this together, I have ZERO experience with solar, so I apologize in advance for my ignorance on the subject.

If your just using the grid to charge batteries limit your charge rate from the grid on AC1 to 60 amps, no chargeverter needed.
I don't have a BCS I have 2 xwp off grid, it's just my understanding of how it works, there could be other opinions.
Schneider has a bunch of webinars with information, it's a good place to start

Webinars

Share your videos with friends, family, and the world

youtube.com

 

[GRMRC]

Oh ok. I don't think I am going to run them in bypass mode, basically run them off-grid, but with the grid as a potential backup (lockout the inverters and completely bypass them to the main (sub) panel) to keep the lights on if there is a system failure. If I needed the grid to charge the batteries, I could use a chargeverter, which I think gives me a little better control of charging the batteries. Again I am still piecing all this together, I have ZERO experience with solar, so I apologize in advance for my ignorance on the subject.

The XWpro will charge batteries from the grid just fine. No need for some other “ chargeverter”. Zero experience with solar means ask questions and try not to make things more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[robbob2112]

Oh ok. I don't think I am going to run them in bypass mode, basically run them off-grid, but with the grid as a potential backup (lockout the inverters and completely bypass them to the main (sub) panel) to keep the lights on if there is a system failure. If I needed the grid to charge the batteries, I could use a chargeverter, which I think gives me a little better control of charging the batteries. Again I am still piecing all this together, I have ZERO experience with solar, so I apologize in advance for my ignorance on the subject.

The chargeverter's purpose is to clean up dirty power and out of spec and convert it to charge the batteries. Generally this means power from a generator - they typically deliver a mis-shappen sine wave with spikes all around if they are not the newest inverter/generators -

In a very rare case they might be used to convert grid power for batteries, but this would be in a country with un-reliable power that is bad enough it would trip a standard Inverter/charger like a schneider offline due to the incoming power being above/below voltage.

I don't think Kentucky qualifies no matter what the grid looks like.

Just use the XW Pro to charge your batteries and skip the chargeverter unless you are also charging from a generator at times.... and then it would ONLY be connected between the generator and the battery banks.

 

[BKY2003]

Just learning, I want to eventually go off grid. But with the grid connected to the AC1 for charging purposes. How do you keep it from back feeding the grid (load balancing) without having to go to this extent.
Post in thread 'XW Pro Grid Support limitations?'
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/xw-pro-grid-support-limitations.52154/post-1320535 I believe he just wants the grid for charging

 

[BKY2003]

Or is he having this problem, because he is using AC pass through and battery charging? If you eliminate AC pass through and just use charging would there be no chance of load balancing on the grid. Thanks

 

[Hedges]

Chargeverter makes the system an on-line UPS, no glitch when the grid goes down. Grid-interactive inverters typically have a dropout of AC output, depending on how voltage and frequency of grid deviate during the failure.

It has been my experience with Sunny Island that some grid failures leave a VOIP dongle hung, and I have to manually power cycle it to get phone working again.

It also guarantees zero backfeed.

It takes away from the inverter control over whether PV, battery, or grid supplies the loads. Except that if set for a voltage representing lower SoC, you might be able to avoid drawing from grid most of the time.

You may have a control output from the inverter, or from a battery monitor, that could switch a relay connecting Chargeverter to grid.