The XW Pro is basically a larger inverter that's limited by cooling. With more cooling they could have called it a 10kW inverter but then the "long duration surge" wouldn't be as good relative to the continuous output rating.
Schneider XW Pro - End of Sale???
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Brucey
Velcro Man
Or they rated it conservatively so it can last 10+ years versus throwing a bunch of screaming fans on there and hoping for the best...
I haven't seen an official curve but reports it can sustain 60A for a minute. In this thread where a development Rosie was being tested it was basically limited by a 250A dc breaker that would trip in the low 300s.
So it doesnt have that 5 minute surge of a 6848 but potentially can surge beyond for a shorter time period? They apparently spent 7 years perfecting the power stage of the Rosie/little rosie and eventual b17 module.
I look forward to testing them both to compare.
I heard him mention that "no" inverters had been successful at starting that IR compressor.
Did that mean at some point he tried the two XW's in parallel and still failed? I looked through some of his videos, but saw no mention of the XW's being heavy load tested. Not sure he had enough battery either, from watching that video.
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Nimrod5
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stellavolta still advertising them for $1370 and free shipping. Better deal than my $1200 + shipping.
jharrell
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Those compressors look like they have a Baldor 5hp KVA Code J which is 173 amps LRA so around 40kw surge.
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jharrell
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Seems like you just said the same thing in a different way.
How much did the XW pro cost when they were in their prime before being discontinued, combined with the 200 amp mid and 18kw of mppts? That would be the equivalent to a 18kpv kinda.
Either the manufacturer can de-rate the continuous rating (and maybe less fans) for a greater surge ratio or have a higher continuous with lower surge ratio, up to the buyer to decide whether they want to be conservative or the manufacturer does it for you.
You don't need minutes of surge to start a motor only a half second at most. The HF designs have large HVDC cap banks to do this at lower current while the LF are more supported directly by the battery bank through the LVDC FETs at high current sinking transformer losses into a lot of iron.
Would be interesting to take a HF AIO and add some really big 500v caps to the HVDC bus and see how far you can take the surge.
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Brucey
Velcro Man
Well its total speculation by niktak that the 6848 could run at 10Kw continuous just with more fans. At a certain point the heat generated is too much for any number of fans and it has to ramp down output. Just like any inverter. The idea that Schneider deliberately rated the 6848 as a 6.8kW inverter simply to produce an impressive surge graph versus labelling it as a10kW seems doubtful. It's just a happy byproduct of robust system design.
We do see many HF inverter uses having to resort to soft starts etc to get their big AC compressor loads etc started.
I would agree that there's generally choices in the market, "conservatively rated" LF units, or HF units with more "optimistic" numbers. For those lured in by big numbers the eg 18kpv and flexboss 21 etc sound very impressive. Ultimately both are limited to 12kW inverter output from batteries, no matter how loud or fast the fans spin.
jharrell
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Sure its deliberate, everything in product design is tradeoffs, if you add a water cooling system and used Gan or Sic transistors or any number of more expensive designs your continuous and surge capabilities can go up, thats why a inverter in a EV can do hundreds of KW and massive surge and is a little HF design.
Maybe before long we will see water cooled whole home inverters and have debates over air vs water cooling for home backup like the generator guys do.
More or less active air cooling is a design choice. With the big HF designs you see the smaller power transformer and more / bigger power transistors bonded to a large aluminum heatsink on the outside with fans blowing over it for outdoor rated use. The LF's tend to have fans blowing over the fets and large transformer on the interior of the case, seems more difficult to do a direct outdoor rated design.
Seems to me people use soft starts if possible for inverter driven systems unless complete overkill, especially if it you air conditioner thats starting / stopping all the time. An LF inverters FETs are still taking the surge, the big transformer has no issue but it's the FETs you worry about, go watch the Victron video describing overload conditions, they never mention the transformer once and continually talk about the FET bank.
First time I used a soft start was with my last RV where I added a 3000w Magnum LF to run the whole thing. It would overload sometimes starting the 15kbtu A/C. Even if your LF inverter can handle the surge its much better for its FET longevity to have soft starts or VFD unless its just a once in a while thing like starting a saw or something either that or way over build.
First thing I did when planning for my whole home solar install was put a soft start in my 5 ton a/c regardless of which inverter was going to drive it, better for the a/c compressor too. I won't buy a new A/C system unless its variable speed if I can help it, which is by nature soft start. Same probably for next well pump all though that a much smaller motor.
12k continuous vs 12k surge for the XW pro...
Still interested to know what the price of an equivalent XW pro system would cost back when it was being made, because thats what it comes down to. Looks like some great deals on that equipment right now I guess due to being discontinued, but if your comparing HF to LF and a 6kw with 4x start surge is the same as a 12kw HF with 2x start surge well how much does it matter that one has a 4:1 surge ratio and the other a 2:1? What am I getting per dollar is what I am looking at and what loads do I have to support and those decisions are based on much more than just inverter topology.
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Brucey
Velcro Man
Sorry I wasn't clear, I was talking about the 18kpv and fb 21 there, not the 6848:
"Ultimately both are limited to 12kW inverter output from batteries, no matter how loud or fast the fans spin."
"Ultimately both are limited to 12kW inverter output from batteries, no matter how loud or fast the fans spin."
Brucey
Velcro Man
The Rosie and little Rosie are using Sic, Midnite never got into the exact specifics but apparently they do run cooler so prob helps with their surge performance. Little Rosie should do well in the RV market for smaller setups that don't need dual quattros etc, and quite a bit of weight savings.
jharrell
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Again how much did the XWpro with Mppts and mid cost compared to a 18kpv or Flexboss/gridboss? Serious I am curious I didn't pay much attention to the XW when it was for sale, a 4X XWpro with mid and full mppt array looks like a hell of a system that could surge to 48kw for multiple minutes providing 200a service.
My concern is with how quickly eg4 (and other Chinese AIOs) comes out with new product lines and stop making/supporting others. Will they even have parts in the future? It feels like the cell phone business model, and they just pump out new models yearly, and you throw away your old one..
<looks around>
Why am I wading in?
LF vs HF and the associated brands, at this point in their evolution are akin to Ford/Chevy/Dodge debates. I love the 'older' tech and LF design. I'm using some of it, though not Schneider. I also use HF AIOs, which thus far have been able to handle any load we've thrown at them.
I think my reason for adding in to the conversation is mostly to point out:
1 - For the vast majority of the HF/AIO models on the market from the last year or two, we simply don't yet have data on longevity and long term use, at least not that I've seen. Without that longer-term data, it's hard to draw equivalent comparisons. I think that also gets even muddier in that EG4 in particular is putting out new products and it does seem like there's a chase to grab the latest and greatest which resets the counter on getting that data. The best indicator (I guess?) is to look at warranty. If a company is willing to put a 10 year warranty on something, they're either confident it'll make it that long, confident they'll be able to deny claims down the road based on whatever, or simply don't have a 5 or 10 year plan. Maybe they won't be around, maybe they'll be acquired and the onus would be on the acquirer. Maybe they're banking on putting out new models and following the Apple iPhone 'upgrade all the time' model.
2 - I can't remember what an XW Pro was at full price. But you're correct @jharrell in that a system built to match PV input with that ecosystem vs a FB or 18kvp would've been significantly more expensive when you add in the PDP. Discrete MPPTs are frankly, overpriced even now for what you're getting. I'm running into the same wall with Victron looking at some changes I want to make. Even with discounted inverters, Schneider gets really pricey for the same amount of PV capability.
This boils down to intended use, budget, personal preference (if you're experienced/well researched). For the average home user, the biggest load is probably HVAC and maybe a dryer if they are doing whole house. Maybe air compressor or something like that if they're running a shop. Likely they're not doing it all at the same time, they'd have to look their usage pattern.
Why am I wading in?
LF vs HF and the associated brands, at this point in their evolution are akin to Ford/Chevy/Dodge debates. I love the 'older' tech and LF design. I'm using some of it, though not Schneider. I also use HF AIOs, which thus far have been able to handle any load we've thrown at them.
I think my reason for adding in to the conversation is mostly to point out:
1 - For the vast majority of the HF/AIO models on the market from the last year or two, we simply don't yet have data on longevity and long term use, at least not that I've seen. Without that longer-term data, it's hard to draw equivalent comparisons. I think that also gets even muddier in that EG4 in particular is putting out new products and it does seem like there's a chase to grab the latest and greatest which resets the counter on getting that data. The best indicator (I guess?) is to look at warranty. If a company is willing to put a 10 year warranty on something, they're either confident it'll make it that long, confident they'll be able to deny claims down the road based on whatever, or simply don't have a 5 or 10 year plan. Maybe they won't be around, maybe they'll be acquired and the onus would be on the acquirer. Maybe they're banking on putting out new models and following the Apple iPhone 'upgrade all the time' model.
2 - I can't remember what an XW Pro was at full price. But you're correct @jharrell in that a system built to match PV input with that ecosystem vs a FB or 18kvp would've been significantly more expensive when you add in the PDP. Discrete MPPTs are frankly, overpriced even now for what you're getting. I'm running into the same wall with Victron looking at some changes I want to make. Even with discounted inverters, Schneider gets really pricey for the same amount of PV capability.
This boils down to intended use, budget, personal preference (if you're experienced/well researched). For the average home user, the biggest load is probably HVAC and maybe a dryer if they are doing whole house. Maybe air compressor or something like that if they're running a shop. Likely they're not doing it all at the same time, they'd have to look their usage pattern.
Brucey
Velcro Man
Not sure but just three 600/100 sccs would have prob been $4500 and that's just for 300A of solar charging. If we take historic launch pricing of both then the eg4 solution will be cheaper. Ultimately eg4 didn't exist 20 years ago when the xw inverter platform was designed.
I'd agree, although I'd hope that people are turning around and selling their old gear. I can't imagine why you wouldn't if what you have is still working and you just wanted to upgrade.
I've wondered more than once - when you put out new models but offered a long warranty on the older stuff and have lots of installations, some large out there, how much more complicated it becomes supporting the various models. I forget the guy's name, but he recently put up a really well done system with like 4 18kpv's, I don't remember how many EG4 wall mount batteries. Kinda wonder what happens there if one of his units goes down. Does he get a refurb 18kpv? New factory? Is there a stock of replacements / parts for the long term?
That's not a statement of any opinion on EG4 either. I truly don't know, but I think they're worthwhile considerations in this context.
jharrell
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Yep I agree, it's part of the reason I went with the Sol-Ark 15k for my upcoming install. More established performance and longevity info, US support (however some questions of how good that is lately), local installers recommending it and supporting them locally with less savvy customers with few problems. Slightly better build quality IMO. It's still a Chinese inverter, not many that aren't at this point.
I like the EG4's stuff and the direction company is going, having direct interaction with the CEO and seemingly responsive staff here is a big plus IMO. The Flexboss/Grid boss is a good design IMO with great specs on paper, just too early for me to jump on that, will watch with interest here going forward.
jharrell
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This is really why HF AIO's are taking over, having separate MPPTS and inverters tied together on a LVDC bus with batteries just means multiple redundant transformers/magnetics and switching components and lots of other stuff to get the same output with higher loss. You are getting the benefit of redundancy and independence but you pay for that.
Taking a HF inverter design and tapping the HV solar mppts directly to a HVDC bus just wins in cost per usable watt reducing needed components and tighter integration. The only thing better is going HV battery simplifying the DC-DC battery interface, but you need cheap HV batteries first. The Sol-Ark 30k is a beast would be interesting to see a split-phase version of that for home use.
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Is that the one that used PVC as conduit?
Maybe? I can't remember. He has some nice EMT bends as well, but I've slept since I saw it. hahaha
Yes it does. I tried a soft start which made it worse, so I took it off. Not using any grid with the inverter but when I change over to grid only use, it start right up with a 30 amp breaker and the box in the shop only carries a 60 amp service 170" from the main. So it's easy just to flip back and forth when needed. I doubt 1 xw pro will do, may be 2 but I only bought 1 because with 1 should handle all my other loads just not all at the same time which no one does that usually any way while using solar to power your complete property as I am with 3 large barns and a home.
These compressors used on you tube or by SS to show all the power are not the same as like the Quincy style cast iron twin belt Bolder drive systems. They use direct drove or shorter stroke compressors which don't take as much inrush to get spinning up.
I have a little over 3k involved into the Schneider system now with parts coming to make it complete. Took advise here and cancelled the EG4 controller and turned around and bought the Schneider MPPT 100/600 , insight and what the hell got a mini PDP. So that will make the complete system with out having a rats nest of wires. The additional stuff added up more than the inverter but looking back a few yrs ago would have cost over 5k. So as a back up system to sit beside the 18kpv if some thing happens I will have another to keep things running. There is nothing wrong with having a back up plan if you can afford too.
That sounds familiar, with the 18K
Your IR is the much more Industrial model for sure, than either of my compressors.
I went out and checked my old IR single stage 60 gallon and it is one of those "SPL" 5 HP motors so only 5 HP for starting up and really about a 3 HP since it only draws 15 amps instead of a steady 24 amps the 2 stage draws.
This will actually work out fine for me since I will just rebuild the IR's pump with a new set of rings -(once I find some) and then I think the 18K will work just fine for the 60 gallon, during a grid down situation.
Please post up the results of trying the 6848 in comparison.
Not knocking the 18K, it is doing exactly what I really need it to do day to day . The 80 gallon start up would have been icing on the cake though.
Exactly.
I love my 18kpv. It's rock solid just like being on the grid. Had to go through a few updates and frustration to get there but it's all good now been running it sense there first came out. But it will not start the Quincy, it will start my other 2. 1 being a 30 gal 120v and an old 60gal says to be a 6.5 hp with twin caps on top, but it has an ALU., shorter stroke compressor pump on it, made by Colman. The 18kpv is pretty much a do all once you get the right update in it but once it's right leave it alone. A lot of these updates have proved not to be tested long enough before they release them and may cause issues.
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