Selecting a new battery bank for holiday cottage

[Snoffe]

Hello!
I'm in the process of upgrading our offgrid small holiday cottage solar power system and I would like some input on a new battery system and perhaps some other considerations as well.

Old setup:

• 1kW solar panels
• Outback Power Flexmax 60 (FM60-150VDC) charge controller
• Outback Power 2,6kW inverter (Not sure which model, probably sealed FX2524T)
• 3 units of 12V 210Ah AGM batteries (Cheap crap) in parallel (630Ah)
• 12VDC and 240AC power systems

New setup considerations:
We're keeping the panels, charge controller and inverter, but changing to 24VDC for improved efficiency. Our main problem is that we often have to take sudden heavy drain from the batteries in the form of a dishwasher or a power tool. This sometimes crashes the 240 AC system and is a torment on battery health. This is why we are considering a battery system better prepared for sudden deep depletion cycle, such as a 2V forklift lead acid battery in a series of 12. We originally considered 6V Rolls solar batteries in a series of 4 units, but our main usage problem is not long term steady power consumption, but sudden deep drain.

As for the batteries we have a reasonable offer for new 2V american made forklift batteries:
-12 units 2V 420Ah 3EPzS = 1825€
-12 units 2V 560Ah 4EPzS = 2210€
-12 units 2V 620Ah 4EPzS = 2396€

What do you guys think of 24V system made with a series of 12 2V forklift batteries with our solar setup? I'd personally go for the 620Ah, but is it oversized for our charging capacity?

Ps. We also just purchased a small wind mill generator for general upkeep with 800W advertised, but I expect to get 20-50W. How should I connect this with the solar charge controller?

 

[snoobler]

Welcome to the forum.

Old setup:

• 1kW solar panels
• Outback Power Flexmax 60 (FM60-150VDC) charge controller
• Outback Power 2,6kW inverter (Not sure which model, probably sealed FX2524T)
• 3 units of 12V 210Ah AGM batteries (Cheap crap) in parallel (630Ah)
• 12VDC and 240AC power systems

New setup considerations:
We're keeping the panels, charge controller and inverter, but changing to 24VDC for improved efficiency. Our main problem is that we often have to take sudden heavy drain from the batteries in the form of a dishwasher or a power tool. This sometimes crashes the 240 AC system and is a torment on battery health. This is why we are considering a battery system better prepared for sudden deep depletion cycle, such as a 2V forklift lead acid battery in a series of 12. We originally considered 6V Rolls solar batteries in a series of 4 units, but our main usage problem is not long term steady power consumption, but sudden deep drain.

Doubling the voltage means halving the current and cutting resistive losses by 75%, so there will be an inherent advantage in the move to 24V. Surge currents for motor starting can be a nightmare at 12V.

Are you getting a new inverter too? To my knowledge, inverters are made to operate at only one input voltage.

Your "crashes" may also be associated with limitations of the FX25XX. Surges at any battery voltage might exceed its ratings.

As for the batteries we have a reasonable offer for new 2V american made forklift batteries:
-12 units 2V 420Ah 3EPzS = 1825€
-12 units 2V 560Ah 4EPzS = 2210€
-12 units 2V 620Ah 4EPzS = 2396€

What do you guys think of 24V system made with a series of 12 2V forklift batteries with our solar setup? I'd personally go for the 620Ah, but is it oversized for our charging capacity?

1000/24V = 40A.

40A/620 = 0.065C PEAK charge current. This is likely too low for any option. IMHO, you want to target 0.15C peak because you generally don't even get peak.

Check the manufacturer's data for recommendations.

Have you conducted an analysis of your actual loads and surges?

Ps. We also just purchased a small wind mill generator for general upkeep with 800W advertised, but I expect to get 20-50W. How should I connect this with the solar charge controller?

Your wind turbine will need its own charge controller.

 

[Snoffe]

Thanks for the reply! Please bear with me!

Are you getting a new inverter too? To my knowledge, inverters are made to operate at only one input voltage.

This is a good point! I'm actually completely new to solar and electrical systems, so I hadn't considered this. I'm having difficulties trying to identify the exact model this Outback inverter is. There are no model markings on it. All I know that it supposedly has 2,6kW, currently runs our 12V system, and the only marking on the device is "375-0028-3", which turned up nothing on google. The manual only says "International Series GTFX and GVFX Grid-Interactive Inverter/Charger".

So if it turns out to be 12V only, then we're in the market for a new 24V model I guess. By the way, what voltage would you recommend for our use case? 24V, 36V or straight 48V? The system is used a few weekends a month and perhaps a few weeks a month during summer. Nothing during the winters for a period of 3-4 months with freezing temps. The only thing powered 24/7 is the fridge, except during winters, and in the future also a video and battery monitoring system. During usage we might use a microwave, laptop charger, mobile phone charger, tea water heater, rarely a power tool. 2,6kW has been fine in that way except for the occasional big killer - the dishwasher. Our current system can handle everything except the dishwasher unless it has direct sunlight overhead.

If you still recommend a 24V system, I've looked at several Victron offerings, because I want to move to their platform for remote monitoring possibilities. It has to be an inverter/charter, because sometimes we like to recharge from a petrol powered 2,5kW lawn generator if the batteries get low. What do you think about these? (both would be connected to a Cerbo GX):
-Multiplus 24/3000/70
-Multiplus II 24/3000/70-32

1000/24V = 40A.

40A/620 = 0.065C PEAK charge current. This is likely too low for any option. IMHO, you want to target 0.15C peak because you generally don't even get peak.

Check the manufacturer's data for recommendations.

Have you conducted an analysis of your actual loads and surges?

Wow, this surprised me. I was under the impression that no matter how large the battery, we can still charge it. Is this 0.15C peak charge current documented somewhere?

According to your formulae, to get 0,15C peak, our new battery could only be around 270Ah, which is tiny. If we keep our Flexmax 60 and use the maximum 60A it gives with the 24V, we would need 1,5kW PV, which would mean a 50% increase from our current 1kW. And with 60A we could only get 420Ah capacity.


Based on the usage plans I described above, would you recommend:

1. A completely new system for our needs?
2. Only 270Ah battery?
3. Upgrading PV to 1,5kW and about 400Ah battery?

Your wind turbine will need its own charge controller.

It will come with a cheap chinese 24V MPPT controller. It is a total joke, but it is only intended to provide some tiny amount of power to get the batteries trhough the winter period when the PV is down.

 

[snoobler]

Thanks for the reply! Please bear with me!



This is a good point! I'm actually completely new to solar and electrical systems, so I hadn't considered this. I'm having difficulties trying to identify the exact model this Outback inverter is. There are no model markings on it. All I know that it supposedly has 2,6kW, currently runs our 12V system, and the only marking on the device is "375-0028-3", which turned up nothing on google. The manual only says "International Series GTFX and GVFX Grid-Interactive Inverter/Charger".

So if it turns out to be 12V only, then we're in the market for a new 24V model I guess. By the way, what voltage would you recommend for our use case? 24V, 36V or straight 48V? The system is used a few weekends a month and perhaps a few weeks a month during summer. Nothing during the winters for a period of 3-4 months with freezing temps. The only thing powered 24/7 is the fridge, except during winters, and in the future also a video and battery monitoring system. During usage we might use a microwave, laptop charger, mobile phone charger, tea water heater, rarely a power tool. 2,6kW has been fine in that way except for the occasional big killer - the dishwasher. Our current system can handle everything except the dishwasher unless it has direct sunlight overhead.

If you're happy with your outback, I would stick with Outback and consider going with a larger inverter.

If you still recommend a 24V system, I've looked at several Victron offerings, because I want to move to their platform for remote monitoring possibilities. It has to be an inverter/charter, because sometimes we like to recharge from a petrol powered 2,5kW lawn generator if the batteries get low. What do you think about these? (both would be connected to a Cerbo GX):
-Multiplus 24/3000/70
-Multiplus II 24/3000/70-32

I am a HUGE Victron fan and have all Victron hardware, but I would encourage you to stick with Outback.

Wow, this surprised me. I was under the impression that no matter how large the battery, we can still charge it. Is this 0.15C peak charge current documented somewhere?

Charging lead acid at too low a rate can increase sulfidation and require more frequent equalization cycles. It's possible that insufficient charging might not be able to properly equalize a large bank.

0.10 - 0.20C is a typical charge rate for most lead-acid batteries. 0.1C is a universal "standard" charge rate. Since solar output is rarely at maximum, targeting 0.15C will likely keep you within 0.10-0.15C. Again, check the manufacturer's data for recommendations.

According to your formulae, to get 0,15C peak, our new battery could only be around 270Ah, which is tiny. If we keep our Flexmax 60 and use the maximum 60A it gives with the 24V, we would need 1,5kW PV, which would mean a 50% increase from our current 1kW. And with 60A we could only get 420Ah capacity.


Based on the usage plans I described above, would you recommend:

1. A completely new system for our needs?
2. Only 270Ah battery?
3. Upgrading PV to 1,5kW and about 400Ah battery?

It will come with a cheap chinese 24V MPPT controller. It is a total joke, but it is only intended to provide some tiny amount of power to get the batteries trhough the winter period when the PV is down.

I'm giving you guidelines without knowing the details of your hardware, so I can't make specific recommendations in good faith.

There are other factors involved.

I'm going to circle back around to the beginning and confirm root cause.

Hello!
I'm in the process of upgrading our offgrid small holiday cottage solar power system and I would like some input on a new battery system and perhaps some other considerations as well.

Old setup:

• 1kW solar panels
• Outback Power Flexmax 60 (FM60-150VDC) charge controller
• Outback Power 2,6kW inverter (Not sure which model, probably sealed FX2524T)
• 3 units of 12V 210Ah AGM batteries (Cheap crap) in parallel (630Ah)
• 12VDC and 240AC power systems

New setup considerations:
We're keeping the panels, charge controller and inverter, but changing to 24VDC for improved efficiency. Our main problem is that we often have to take sudden heavy drain from the batteries in the form of a dishwasher or a power tool. This sometimes crashes the 240 AC system and is a torment on battery health.

"crashes the system" - what do you mean by this. Please be specific.

 

[Johnson]

New to solar as well, but if you are going to spend 2000 Euro on batteries, why not spend half that on LiFePo4 and have the same usable capacity? Add a growwatt charger/inverter and a BMS and you would probably spend about the same amount, with the option of adding more solar panels if and when you need to. Just thinking out loud...

 

[time2roll]

+1 to move away from lead acid batteries and into lithium.

 

[Snoffe]

Thank you all for the replies so far!

New to solar as well, but if you are going to spend 2000 Euro on batteries, why not spend half that on LiFePo4 and have the same usable capacity? Add a growwatt charger/inverter and a BMS and you would probably spend about the same amount, with the option of adding more solar panels if and when you need to. Just thinking out loud...

+1 to move away from lead acid batteries and into lithium.

As I mentioned earlier, 3 months of winter is the issue with lithium. According to all the information on this site and the internet, LiFePO4 cannot be charged when below 0 Celsius.

 

[Snoffe]

If you're happy with your outback, I would stick with Outback and consider going with a larger inverter.

But if the Outback 2,6kW Inverter-Charger is 12V only, we cannot use it for the new 24V system? The only thing we could reuse is the Flexmax 60A charge controller for the current 1kW PV, if I understand correctly.

Charging lead acid at too low a rate can increase sulfidation and require more frequent equalization cycles. It's possible that insufficient charging might not be able to properly equalize a large bank.

0.10 - 0.20C is a typical charge rate for most lead-acid batteries. 0.1C is a universal "standard" charge rate. Since solar output is rarely at maximum, targeting 0.15C will likely keep you within 0.10-0.15C. Again, check the manufacturer's data for recommendations.

Thanks! This is the exactly the kind of information I was looking at in my opening post.

"crashes the system" - what do you mean by this. Please be specific.

When we engage the dishwasher during summer and it starts heating water, very often 240V power goes out completely and the batteries are drained. The only we way we can fix this is to disconnect the dishwasher and let the batteries get some more charging before continuing. Or we connect the petrol powered lawn generator to the Outback 2,6kW inverter-charger and use that to charge the batteries simultaneously while the dishwasher runs. We suspect the dishwasher is the main culprit that destroyed our 630Ah 12V system (3 x 210Ah AGM) and those batteries are now pretty much dead after 3-4 years of use. This is one of the reasons why we are planning the switch to a 24V system and 2V forklift flooded lead acid batteries that are perhaps more durable of deep discharge (C5 or C3 discharge rate). But this new setup of 12 x 2V 620Ah is beginning to sound like a very expensive mistake with our current 1kW PV, unless we upgrade it to 1,5kW, which is the maximum Flexmax can support at 24V.

 

[time2roll]

As I mentioned earlier, 3 months of winter is the issue with lithium. According to all the information on this site and the internet, LiFePO4 cannot be charged when below 0 Celsius.

Ok so keep it heated, move it inside to a heated space, or just disconnect.

 

[Johnson]

As I mentioned earlier, 3 months of winter is the issue with lithium. According to all the information on this site and the internet, LiFePO4 cannot be charged when below 0 Celsius.

You can add insulation and a small heater, I was told that even 10W should be enoug in my unheated garage, that gets below freezing, but I have not had to try that (yet) Also, are you planning to go there during the winter? Not trying to push you towards lithium, just trying to learn myself...

 

[Snoffe]

Thanks for your input again. The cottage is on island by the baltic coast and is completely inaccessible for at least 3 months during winter. During this time it can go as low as -20C, but -35C can happen for a day or two every year. Summer is a different story however. I'm still hoping that a flooded lead acid could survive the winter plugged in with solar and wind with a few PoE security cameras with 4G LTE antenna running. Or maybe not.

 

[Johnson]

Thanks for your input again. The cottage is on island by the baltic coast and is completely inaccessible for at least 3 months during winter. During this time it can go as low as -20C, but -35C can happen for a day or two every year. Summer is a different story however. I'm still hoping that a flooded lead acid could survive the winter plugged in with solar and wind with a few PoE security cameras with 4G LTE antenna running. Or maybe not.

I am in Southern Ontario and I have seen -20C, garage will freeze when outside temperature is below -8C, so I will be insulating and adding a heater to my batteries From what I understand is that LiFePo4 will hold it's charge for long periods when completely disconnected, unless you get enough sun to top it up once in a while. But I also a big believer we have to go with what we are comfortable with, it is not a cheap hobby and it would be a pain to come to an island and having to replace parts... Thanks for explaining your reasoning.

 

[snoobler]

But if the Outback 2,6kW Inverter-Charger is 12V only, we cannot use it for the new 24V system? The only thing we could reuse is the Flexmax 60A charge controller for the current 1kW PV, if I understand correctly.


Thanks! This is the exactly the kind of information I was looking at in my opening post.


When we engage the dishwasher during summer and it starts heating water, very often 240V power goes out completely and the batteries are drained. The only we way we can fix this is to disconnect the dishwasher and let the batteries get some more charging before continuing. Or we connect the petrol powered lawn generator to the Outback 2,6kW inverter-charger and use that to charge the batteries simultaneously while the dishwasher runs. We suspect the dishwasher is the main culprit that destroyed our 630Ah 12V system (3 x 210Ah AGM) and those batteries are now pretty much dead after 3-4 years of use. This is one of the reasons why we are planning the switch to a 24V system and 2V forklift flooded lead acid batteries that are perhaps more durable of deep discharge (C5 or C3 discharge rate). But this new setup of 12 x 2V 620Ah is beginning to sound like a very expensive mistake with our current 1kW PV, unless we upgrade it to 1,5kW, which is the maximum Flexmax can support at 24V.

Okay. This does sound like an issue with battery depletion.

Do you have any idea how much energy you actually use on a daily basis? Your usable battery storage is a little more than 10% of the average U.S. household just for comparison.

3-4 years of abuse is a GREAT lifetime for AGM batteries. AGM batteries trade ease of maintenance with reduced life when compared to flooded lead acid (FLA) - only about 60% the life (FLA is about 2000 cycles and AGM is about 1200). If you're routinely discharging your batteries below 50%, then your battery life will be substantially reduced.

The correct thing to do here is to do an energy audit and right-size your components. You MIGHT be fine sticking with 12V if you buy the right capacity and thus avoid replacing an expensive inverter.

Link #1 in my signature for a spreadsheet to conduct an energy audit - what you use, how much power it takes and how long you want to use it.

Link #5 or #6 in my signature to get your solar hours.

I suspect you have cheap/undersized batteries that you routinely over-discharge and possibly under-charge due to over-use of energy. This will kill batteries fast.

 

[Hedges]

Dishwasher - the problem is the heating element? Can you just disable it, don't heat water beyond the temperature that goes in and air dry?
"heating water" - if you use a tank-type water heater, it can be powered by surplus power when batteries are full. Then dishwasher gets hot water. Have to drain for the winter, of course.

Minimum charge rate wouldn't be a problem for lithium. For FLA, needs to bubble to mix electrolyte. For the AGM I use, instructions say if charged lower than 0.2C, needs longer absorption period to reach full charge.

FLA has higher discharge rate. AGM, just fully charge before winter then disconnect. It can sit until spring, won't discharge so won't freeze.

LiFePO4 can't be charged below freezing which is a problem you would have to address. But if you don't use in winter, may just avoid the problem.
Lithium doesn't freeze, so leave about 50% charged (to avoid degradation of sitting at high state of charge) and disconnect for winter.

Insulation and heating could work. There is a lot of thermal mass so would take a long time to heat throughout, could be difficult to heat before the sun goes down again. Heavily insulated, not much power would be required to keep it warm (either electric draw 24 hours a day or just during sunlight.) But, some heat is produced during charging and some heat when drawing heavy current through (typically skinny) busbars. May need venting as well above some temperature.

AGM or Gel would be the simplest solution. I think those are OK with your relatively low recharge rates, but need to ensure voltage/absorption time are sufficient to recharge 100%. Quality AGM should provide 10 years float life and 600 cycles to 70% DoD or 2500 cycles to 20% DoD (see chart last page)

http://sunxtender.com/pdfs/Sun_Xtender_Battery_Technical_Manual.pdf

I have 48V, 400 Ah of these. 12V, 800 Ah would be about $2500 (USD), or 2126€ (Euro), slightly cheaper than the forklift cell prices you listed. (not counting shipping, better to find quality local brand.)

(DIY LiFePO4 can be done for half the price and has longer cycle life, so worth figuring out how to take care of thermal issue especially if your frequency/depth of cycle would wear out AGM.)

 

[Q-Dog]

We have 3 dishwashers at home. One of them is a wasted space in the middle of our cabinetry. And the other 2 trade off dishwashing duties depending on which of them did the cooking. (you cook, I'll clean rule is in effect.)

It would be a lot cheaper for you to just not use the energy hog dishwasher.

 

[Snoffe]

Dishwasher - the problem is the heating element? Can you just disable it, don't heat water beyond the temperature that goes in and air dry?
"heating water" - if you use a tank-type water heater, it can be powered by surplus power when batteries are full. Then dishwasher gets hot water. Have to drain for the winter, of course.

Minimum charge rate wouldn't be a problem for lithium. For FLA, needs to bubble to mix electrolyte. For the AGM I use, instructions say if charged lower than 0.2C, needs longer absorption period to reach full charge.

FLA has higher discharge rate. AGM, just fully charge before winter then disconnect. It can sit until spring, won't discharge so won't freeze.

LiFePO4 can't be charged below freezing which is a problem you would have to address. But if you don't use in winter, may just avoid the problem.
Lithium doesn't freeze, so leave about 50% charged (to avoid degradation of sitting at high state of charge) and disconnect for winter.

Insulation and heating could work. There is a lot of thermal mass so would take a long time to heat throughout, could be difficult to heat before the sun goes down again. Heavily insulated, not much power would be required to keep it warm (either electric draw 24 hours a day or just during sunlight.) But, some heat is produced during charging and some heat when drawing heavy current through (typically skinny) busbars. May need venting as well above some temperature.

AGM or Gel would be the simplest solution. I think those are OK with your relatively low recharge rates, but need to ensure voltage/absorption time are sufficient to recharge 100%. Quality AGM should provide 10 years float life and 600 cycles to 70% DoD or 2500 cycles to 20% DoD (see chart last page)

http://sunxtender.com/pdfs/Sun_Xtender_Battery_Technical_Manual.pdf

I have 48V, 400 Ah of these. 12V, 800 Ah would be about $2500 (USD), or 2126€ (Euro), slightly cheaper than the forklift cell prices you listed. (not counting shipping, better to find quality local brand.)

(DIY LiFePO4 can be done for half the price and has longer cycle life, so worth figuring out how to take care of thermal issue especially if your frequency/depth of cycle would wear out AGM.)

Thanks, but we cannot fiddle with the dishwasher. It it what it is. Our first option was FLA 2V forklift, because sometimes we have to take 2-3 kW for a powertool or that washer. These sudden usage spikes are the main issue for our next battery bank.

AGM cannot survive such discharge for long. Gel maybe, but I've been unable to find them for a good price in EU. The sunxtenders I was unable to find un in EU, but similar are available. I have nothing against LiFePO4, but the winter is the issue.

I'm hoping I could run PoE security cameras, Cerbo GX and PoE 4G antenna during winter and this would require connected batteries, which exclude lithium even with a heating unit.

 

[Snoffe]

Okay. This does sound like an issue with battery depletion.

Do you have any idea how much energy you actually use on a daily basis? Your usable battery storage is a little more than 10% of the average U.S. household just for comparison.

3-4 years of abuse is a GREAT lifetime for AGM batteries. AGM batteries trade ease of maintenance with reduced life when compared to flooded lead acid (FLA) - only about 60% the life (FLA is about 2000 cycles and AGM is about 1200). If you're routinely discharging your batteries below 50%, then your battery life will be substantially reduced.

The correct thing to do here is to do an energy audit and right-size your components. You MIGHT be fine sticking with 12V if you buy the right capacity and thus avoid replacing an expensive inverter.

Link #1 in my signature for a spreadsheet to conduct an energy audit - what you use, how much power it takes and how long you want to use it.

Link #5 or #6 in my signature to get your solar hours.

I suspect you have cheap/undersized batteries that you routinely over-discharge and possibly under-charge due to over-use of energy. This will kill batteries fast.

We've been with 12V for the life of the current system and so far charging and scaling are the issue with 12V. This is why we are heavily considering 24V. As I mentioned above, sometimes we have to take 2-3 kW for a powertool or damn dishwasher ?. Otherwise the stable load is pretty low during summer: Fridge, mobile phone charger, coffee maker a few times a day, LED tv, small stereo a few weekends or whole weeks a month. The new additions I'm contemplating are the PoE security cameras and PoE 4G antenna, which would run 24/7/365 even during winter with FLA. Based on this I've made a chart:

Current setup:

1kW PV
?
Flexmax 60 (40A best case)
?
12V 630Ah cheap AGM (3 x 12V 210Ah in parallel)
?
Outback 2,6kW inverter-charger ? 2,5kW Generator (if needed)
?
AC 230V + DC 12V​

New setup variation #1:

1kW PV
?
Outback Flexmax 60 (40A best case)
?
24V 420Ah flooded lead acid (12 x 2V forklift 420Ah in series)
?
2,5kW Generator (if needed) ? Victron MultiPlus-II 24/3000/70-32 ? Cerbo GX ? 4G ? VRM
?
AC 230V + DC 24V
​

New setup variation #2:

1,5kW PV
?
Outback Flexmax 60 (60A best case)
?
24V 620Ah flooded lead acid (12 x 2 forkliftV 620Ah in series)
?
2,5kW Generator (if needed) ? Victron MultiPlus-II 24/3000/70-32 ? Cerbo GX ? 4G ? VRM
?
AC 230V+ DC 24V
​

I suspect you have cheap/undersized batteries that you routinely over-discharge and possibly under-charge due to over-use of energy. This will kill batteries fast.​

This is 100% true. The current AGMs were abused and undercharged. Even when during heavy sunlight hours during the summer days, the 12V choked often. 24V would solve this issue, but 620Ah would be still be too large with current 1kW PV.

Link #5 or #6 in my signature to get your solar hours.

Here are the solar hours:

 

[snoobler]

We've been with 12V for the life of the current system and so far charging and scaling are the issue with 12V. This is why we are heavily considering 24V. As I
This is 100% true. The current AGMs were abused and undercharged. Even when during heavy sunlight hours during the summer days, the 12V choked often. 24V would solve this issue, but 620Ah would be still be too large with current 1kW PV.

That's an assumption. You may be right, but you can't say for certain. An energy audit would confirm.

Last thing you want to do is make a big investment and realize it didn't work.

Here are the solar hours:

Are your panels flat or at an angle?

 

[Snoffe]

That's an assumption. You may be right, but you can't say for certain. An energy audit would confirm.

Indeed. I might have to do the audit now.

Are your panels flat or at an angle?

All of them facing directly at south at an angle of about 45-60 degrees.

EDIT: While I'm doing the audit, what do you think about the Multiplus II 24V/3000VA/70A for the supposedly accurate new setup? It's on discount currently at 1275€. I wonder if anybody would purchase an old Outback 12V 2,6kW inverter-charger.

 

[dmholmes]

We have 3 dishwashers at home. One of them is a wasted space in the middle of our cabinetry. And the other 2 trade off dishwashing duties depending on which of them did the cooking. (you cook, I'll clean rule is in effect.)

It would be a lot cheaper for you to just not use the energy hog dishwasher.

Same here! It does make an excellent drying rack though