Setting Up a Lithium Battery (Lithium Werks Valence) for DC & AC Power

[Ampster]

Morningstar's recommendation to use a 100 amp fuse with 6 gauge cable.

In your post #2 the Morning start manual clearly says, "Use UL Listed wire only; rated for the voltage, current, and wire length needed for the system. Minimum wire gauges have been recommended." Later it says, 6 AWG or larger. There is some ambiguity in those statements and the unknown factor in your installation is the length of the run and whether that wire will be in open air or not. It all depends on where you are standing and whether your goal is to protect the wire or use some other suggestion. Different people will interpret Morningstar's comments as recommendations or minimum requirements, I have never suggested that there is anything wrong with meeting minimum requirements. 4 AWG would be better if the distance is long.

The thing I want other readers to understand, is the concept that the fuse is to protect the wire. In this case a 300 Watt inverter running at 12 volts will only draw 25 Amps or 50 Amps for a brief time under surge. In the case of a short circuit the battery is capable of delivering hundreds of Amps but the 100 Amp fuse would probably blow before the cable got too hot. If the distance between the battery and the inverter is long that could be an issue and in that case 4 AWG might be better.
If my generic comments continue to ignore you I have previously suggested that you go to my profile and click the ignore button. That is the only advice I have directed specifically at you.

 

[reg]

I said earlier that I returned to this thread to clean up some loose ends, add some substantive information on the battery's voltage and self-discharge, and post some photos. Within hours, you're back questioning what I'm doing, and now, having learned that I was following Morningstar's explicit recommendations, you're trying to turn this thread into a debate over, and analysis of, Morningstar's use of English.

Myself, I'm not having a lot of trouble understanding what the wiring instructions say; indeed, as someone who makes his living by writing, I think that they're a good example of plain English. Perhaps I think that because it's true, or is unless one's job in life is to play armchair critic and one needs an excuse to show off a basic "Hobbyist" familiarity with the concept of ampere capacity.

The fact is, I've already said in this thread that some people may choose a different fuse size. Apparently that's not good enough for you. Sorry, but I have no interest in getting into a discussion that goes on for post after post, which is clearly what would happen, about whether to use an 80 amp fuse or a 100 amp fuse. If you would personally use an 80 amp fuse, or whatever, you could have simply said so. Maybe you have lots of time to waste debating this question. I don't.

The only thing left for me to do is to post the photos. Then, if you want, you can have the thread all to yourself again, a thread to which you contributed precisely nothing - not a single post - in the almost three days that I was absent.

It would be nice to see this thread through to conclusion, but it's quite clear that you have decided that that will happen only on your terms. I'm reminded of the very good Yiddish word noodge. As I said when I stopped posting, my content in this thread is headed for another format, and I don't have to continue here. Indeed, if you prefer, I won't even post the photos tomorrow. Up to you.

 

[reg]

First, a follow-up to post #67 on how the battery is behaving. My multimeter's voltage reading for the last three days has been a consistent 13.37.

Daily Readings:
Monday afternoon, post-charge: 14.05 (3.51)
Tuesday morning: 13.64 (3.41)
Wednesday morning: 13.49 (3.37)
Thursday morning: 13.45 (3.36)
Friday morning: 13.41 (3.35)
Saturday morning: 13.39 (3.35)
Sunday morning: 13.38 (3.35)
Monday morning: 13.37 (3.34)
Tuesday morning: 13.37 (3.34)
Wednesday morning: 13.37 (3.34)

Re draw from the battery management system and light-emitting diode... The 2008 User Manual for U1-12RT batteries appears to be the most recent that is publicly available on the internet. Yesterday, @Gazoo, who has had several of these batteries for some time, brought my attention to the paragraph in the screen capture below. I am currently in what the Manual calls Park Mode. The Manual says that self-discharge in this Mode, which I would attribute mostly to the battery management system and light-emitting diode, should be under 5 amp-hours per month.

However, we don't know whether the 2008 Manual is accurate on this point for more recent U1-12RT batteries. Gazoo says that he let his batteries rest for a month and then charged them. Based on that experience, he concluded that Park Mode self-discharge for his batteries is about 2Ah per week.

The paragraph also explains the role of float charging. The 2015 Data Sheet that I have (see the screen capture in post #2) says that the float charge should be 13.8V.

View attachment 45074

This morning's Park Mode multimeter reading is again 13.37 volts (3.34 volts per cell), which it has now been for four days in a row.

I'll make and post photos of the battery and some of the components discussed in earlier posts soon. Just waiting for one more delivery.

 

[reg]

As promised, some photos...

As mentioned in post #52, when I tried M6 hex screws that are 20mm long on the battery terminals, I ran into resistance at about 17mm. Presumably the tap narrowed. Deciding to leave well enough alone, I ordered 16mm screws. As can be seen in the photo below, these fit perfectly. I chose to use brass screws and copper plain washers.

The design of the top of the battery makes it unlikely that metal will come into contact with both terminals at once. Nevertheless, I've decided to use a wrench insulated to 1000V with this battery. Some people apply heat shrink to an uninsulated wrench.

The Knipex box wrench in the photo, 10mm for M6 screws, is 165mm (6.5") long. I have a Victron IP65 battery charger (post #1), and the tongue on its M8 (5/16") ring terminals, shown on the right in the photo, is quite short. The space between the ring terminal and the wall of the wrench's box is workable, but very tight. I have some TE Connectivity Solistrand M6 ring terminals (specs in post #63), and I've included one on the left terminal in the photo. It leaves a better amount of room for the wrench's box. I may replace the ring terminals on Victron's leads with ones that have a longer tongue. If I do that, I'll also make them M6 rather than M8.

In theory, the Knipex open-end wrench in the photo sounds like it might be a good idea. No clearance issue with ring terminals. However, as is the case with all of the insulated 10mm open-end wrenches that I've seen, the wrench is very short - only 109mm (4.3") long. I much prefer the handling and leverage of the box wrench, and I found the short wrench fussy to use. It was also awkward to fit the wrench between the terminal screws and the wall of the battery shelf. Probably good for small-detail electrical work, but not for this application. I don't really have a use for this wrench for my motorcycle or boat either. Worth checking out, but I'm returning it.

I plan to have battery cables made in the next few days. I'll be paying attention to the length of the tongue on the M6 ring terminals. If necessary, I'll have the cables made with my TE Connectivity Solistrand terminals.

In case anyone is wondering, the holes on the top of the battery's shelf are normal.

 

[reg]

See posts #49, #54, #61 and #78 for discussion about Littelfuse’s inline MIDI fuse holder and MIDI fuses. In the photos below, I’ve included the short Knipex wrench (109mm/4.3”) for size comparison. The fuse holder is 43mm (1.7") long.

The first photo shows the holder with a fuse in place. The cover is on the left. Those are Nylock nuts on the studs, which is why I haven't screwed the nuts down for the photos. There's a video about this type of nut in post #78.* The holder takes an M5 ring terminal, and I've included one that will take 6 gauge cable in the photos. The specs for this ring terminal (which is also TE Connectivity Solistrand) are in post #63.

The second photo shows the cover in place. It snaps on, and feels quite secure. The holder also has two slots that can be used, if desired, to secure the holder with cable ties.

I much prefer Littelfuse’s holder for this application to the ones that Victron and Blue Sea offer, and at $8.44 for the holder and two fuses it’s significantly cheaper. The Blue Sea MIDI holder, not including fuses, has an MSRP of $36. Blue Sea wants another $7.69 per fuse ($15.38 for two). Total? $51.38. Thanks, but I'll go with Littelfuse, which is not only a trusted brand, but invented the MIDI fuse.

As I've said earlier in this thread (post #49, where there's a link to a whole thread on the question), I think that a fuse is probably redundant with this battery. However, as a neighbour used to say about chicken soup as a cure for the common cold, delivered in her distinctive Eastern European accent: “Couldn’t hurt” Now that I’ve got the holder, and think that it would be a good fit, I might as well use it. In addition to $8.44 for the holder and fuses, it will cost the price of a short length of 6 gauge cable from the battery to the fuse, with an M6 ring terminal at the battery end and an M5 ring terminal at the fuse end. Powerwerx's price to make this cable would be about $11 (leaving aside the fact that online it offers M6 ring terminals, but not M5).

* Some people argue that Nylock nuts should not be re-used when a fuse is replaced. The thinking is that vibration (e.g. in a car or boat) will loosen a used Nylock nut. That may be, but I wouldn't hesitate to install my spare fuse with the existing nuts for a few days until I get new ones. That said, I should probably just purchase a couple of spare Nylock nuts to go along with the spare fuse.

 

[reg]

Re connecting the battery cables to the SureSine inverter...

I'll use these 6 gauge wire ferrules to gather together the strands of Ancor's bare 6 gauge cables (266 strands each) before connecting the cables to the inverter's positive and negative terminals. I prefer this to the alternative, which is to just feed the bare wire into the inverter's set screw/grub screw terminals. The pin, which consists of the shaft before the blue insulation, is 12mm (0.47") long. Ferrules come with longer pins, but for the SureSine's terminals 12mm should be long enough. I already have Knipex Crimping Pliers for Wire Ferrules to crimp these.

I don't know who made the ferrules. They were purchased from McMaster-Carr, which makes a point of not revealing the brand names of the components that it sells. Just another of McMaster-Carr's idiosyncrasies

 

[reg]

Update on multimeter voltage readings with the battery in Park Mode. Post #74 explains the battery's Modes and contains info about draw by its built-in battery management system and light-emitting diode. Except for the first, all readings have been made at about 8:00 a.m. Readings in brackets are the multimeter reading divided by four to get "per cell" voltage.

Week One
Monday afternoon, post-charge: 14.05 (3.51)
Tuesday: 13.64 (3.41)
Wednesday: 13.49 (3.37)
Thursday: 13.45 (3.36)
Friday: 13.41 (3.35)
Saturday: 13.39 (3.35)
Sunday: 13.38 (3.35)

Week Two
Monday: 13.37 (3.34)
Tuesday: 13.37 (3.34)
Wednesday: 13.37 (3.34)
Thursday: wavering between 13.37 and 13.36 (3.34)
Friday: 13.36 (3.34)

 

[reg]

[From post #84]: The design of the top of the battery makes it unlikely that metal will come into contact with both terminals at once. Nevertheless, I've decided to use a wrench insulated to 1000V with this battery. Some people apply heat shrink to an uninsulated wrench.

@ashelby, the owner of reBel Batteries, has just published a video that shows the effect of a LiFePO4 short circuit on 22, 14, 12, 10, 8 and 6 gauge wire. To demonstrate, he uses a 12V 100Ah battery and an Arduino setup (with a little help, for 8 and 6 gauge, from a shovel with a long handle).

He also talks about safety glasses and non-conductive tools. The insulated wrench that I've chosen to go with is the longer of the two shown in the photo in post #84.

 

[reg]

I've run into a snag. In the e-mail below, Powerwerx says that it will only make custom cables with the components that it offers online. It doesn't offer M5 ring terminals as an option, which the Littelfuse fuse holder calls for, and it won't use M5 ring terminals that I supply. I don't want to substitute M6 ring terminals, which have stud holes that are 1.35mm (~1/16") larger in diameter.

My options:

1. hire Powerwerx and omit the fuse;
2. purchase Ancor cable elsewhere and find someone else who will crimp two M5, as well as two M6 (1/4"), ring terminals;
3. comply with the demands of Powerwerx's online configurator, cut the positive cable in two and find/hire someone to crimp an M5 ring terminal onto each length of positive cable.

Re option 3... The battery's negative cable only requires an M6 ring terminal. The problem is the positive cable. I could purchase a positive cable with an M6 ring terminal at one end for the battery, and bare wire at the other end for the inverter. I could then cut the cable into two lengths and hire someone to crimp an M5 ring terminal onto each length.

Why not just buy Ancor cable by the foot? At this point, it makes sense. I already have both M6 and M5 ring terminals. However, Powerwerx's online configurator requires one to purchase cables with at least one terminal attached to each. Believe it or not, there is no option to buy cable with bare wire at both ends. The last sentence of Powerwerx's e-mail, when read with the link, effectively says that it will sell me Ancor cable alone only by the 25' (7.6m) reel.

I can't say that I have warm and fuzzy feelings about Powerwerx at the moment


Powerwerx e-mail, personal information removed:

 

[reg]

Further to the above post, this is what Powerwerx will charge for options #1 and #3. If I go ahead with the fuse (option #3), I'll have the additional cost, when I've received the cables, of hiring someone to add two M5 ring terminals to the positive cable. As a practical matter, this will be someone local, and given where I live, it's liable to be fairly expensive. I figure $25 to $50.

Positive and negative cables, 4' (1.2m) with an M6 (1/4") ring terminal at one end, and bare wire at the other: $24.02
Shipping by FedEx Ground: $15.36
Shipping by US Postal Service Priority Mail 2-Day: $16.70

Total via FedEx Ground (takes 5-6 days): $39.38
Total via US Postal Service (2 days): $40.72

Obviously, I'd choose the US Postal Service for shipping.

[Edit: Added the screen capture below of what Powerwerx's shopping cart shows for this purchase.]

 

[Ampster]

Here is a Crimper for less than the cost of shipping the above items.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WNVSMPN/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glc_fabc_W1CGFVFRCG8QR8TBP93G

 

[reg]

Here is a Crimper for less than the cost of shipping the above items.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WNVSMPN/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glc_fabc_W1CGFVFRCG8QR8TBP93G

[Edit: Thomas & Betts link fixed]

Thanks, but your Amazon link says that that IWISS crimper is out of stock until June 9. Looks like it's also out of stock at other US resellers. IWISS wants $48 to ship one FedEx from China.

I'm aware of what's available when it comes to crimpers, from Thomas & Betts's hydraulic crimpers ($$$$$) to its ratcheting TBM45S ($200) to TEMCo's basic anvil crimper ($20). If I recall, earlier in the thread you suggested your Harbor Freight hydraulic crimper ($70), which a lot of people appear to like for occasional use, but it's out of stock until the end of May.

As I said in an earlier post, I'd rather not purchase a crimper for 6 gauge cable. Also, part of the issue is that I want to use Ancor cable, preferably without buying two 25' (7.6m) reels of it. Right now, Powerwerx is the only source that I've been able to identify for Ancor cable by the foot.

I think that it's time to get on the phone, and off the internet, when it comes to getting battery cables made. If that doesn't work, I guess I'll hold my nose and order from Powerwerx

 

[Ampster]

part of the issue is that I want to use Ancor cable, preferably without buying two 25' (7.6m) reels of it.

That Temco crimper and a couple feet of 4 AWG from West Marine is looking like a cost effective option from my vantage point. You can probably get that 4AWG wire into those 6AWG terminals without too much effort. I never liked the look of those hammer crimped lugs but a little shrink tube can make them look professional.

 

[reg]

That Temco crimper and a couple feet of 4 AWG from West Marine is looking like a cost effective option from my vantage point. You can probably get that 4AWG wire into those 6AWG terminals without too much effort. I never liked the look of those hammer crimped lugs but a little shrink tube can make them look professional.

You get a "Like" just for prompting me to have another look at West Marine's site

As mentioned earlier in the thread, there's a West Marine store about 10 miles from me. Looks like you've noticed, as I did when I looked a couple of weeks ago, that West sells pre-made 4 gauge Ancor battery cable.

Your post prompted me to check the site again. I don't know whether I simply missed this, or whether it's a recent seasonal addition, but West is also selling Ancor 6 gauge by the foot.

As the screen capture shows, the price is $24.25 for in-store pickup. I already have the ring terminals. Between asking at the store, and talking with the local marinas, I shouldn't have much trouble finding someone who can do the crimping; with one caveat - we're in the second half of April and Long Island marinas are probably quite busy.

As the screen capture indicates, the pickup date is a ways off - April 30, estimated. It's the same estimate for all four of the West Marine stores in the area. That suggests that none of the stores are set up to cut cable from a reel and sell it, which strikes as odd. Anyway, for another $10 for shipping I can get the cable delivered to my home this week.

Powerwerx's price, ex-shipping, for the same cable with two crimped M6 Ancor ring terminals is actually 23 cents less (see post #90). However, there's a chance that dealing locally with West and the Port Washington marinas will help speed things up. Tomorrow morning, I'll call the West store and the marinas. With a little luck, this could become fairly simple.

Besides, Powerwerx doesn't offer negative cable in hot yellow

 

[reg]

I'm going to start posting these updates of the battery's Park Mode voltage less frequently because the behaviour of the battery appears to be pretty clear at this point. Post #74 explains the battery's Modes and contains info about draw by its built-in battery management system and light-emitting diode. Except for the first, all readings have been made at about 8:00 a.m. Readings in brackets are my multimeter's reading divided by four to get "per cell" voltage.

My current objective is to get the battery cables made so that I can get the battery out of Park Mode and into Active Mode

Week One
Monday afternoon, post-charge: 14.05 (3.51)
Tuesday: 13.64 (3.41)
Wednesday: 13.49 (3.37)
Thursday: 13.45 (3.36)
Friday: 13.41 (3.35)
Saturday: 13.39 (3.35)
Sunday: 13.38 (3.35)

Week Two
Monday: 13.37 (3.34)
Tuesday: 13.37 (3.34)
Wednesday: 13.37 (3.34)
Thursday: wavering between 13.37 and 13.36 (3.34)
Friday: 13.36 (3.34)
Saturday: 13.36 (3.34)
Sunday: 13.36 (3.34)

 

[reg]

I came across a video about Thomas & Betts's* manual crimper for 8 to 2 gauge copper (model TBM45S) and thought that I'd post it. There's lots of discussion on the forum about cheap crimpers, but little on ones that professionals use. It's possible to spend serious money on a T&B crimper. At $201 on Amazon, more elsewhere, this is one of its least expensive. I like to know about about tools like this when I'm considering options. In the case of my 6 gauge battery cables, I've decided to hire someone who has the right tool rather than do it myself with a $20 TEMCo anvil and a hammer

A field engineer who works for Ciena Corporation, a supplier of telecommunications network equipment, made the video, which appears to be the only one on YouTube about this crimper. It's on his personal channel, and it looks to be a draft for an in-house training video. Coincidentally, he demonstrates a crimp of 6 gauge starting at 1:11.

* ABB, formerly ASEA Brown Bovari, now owns T&B, and seems to be gradually phasing out the T&B name.

Screen capture of the TBM45S data sheet:

 

[reg]

Problem solved...

The gentleman that I spoke with at the West Marine store in Port Washington was pretty much the opposite of Powerwerx's robotic, configurator-worshipping e-mail. Older guy, works at the store a couple of days a week, very helpful and very funny. Managed to work a reference to mohels into a discussion about crimping

Anyway, notwithstanding what West Marine's website suggests, the store has 6 gauge Ancor cable in stock and does indeed sell it by the foot. It also has a crimping machine, and customers are welcome to use it. Only red and black cable, no yellow. This being New York, I'll live with Upper East Side black.

Tomorrow is a drive out to Port Washington for some cable, some crimping and some Long Island clams.

Cost of Battery Cable Assembly
Ancor 6 gauge tinned copper cable (8'/2.4m): $24.25
Ring terminals and wire ferrules: $4.62
Fuse holder and two fuses: $8.44
Total: $37.33

 

[Ampster]

Glad you found a solution. Getting anxious to see that battery in action. Have a nice drive. Watch out for Noodges along the road.

 

[reg]

Now that I've got the battery cables sorted, I know what the battery is going to wind up costing:

Battery (512Wh): US$193 including shipping (details in post #1)
Two M6 terminal screws (brass) and two M6 plain washers (copper): $2.86
Battery cables (8'/2.4m in total), inline fuse holder and two fuses: $37.33 (broken down in post #97)
Battery charger: $127.50 (details in post #1)
Insulated 10mm wrench for M6 terminal screws: $37.04 (details in post #84)

Total: $397.73 (roughly $1.00 per watt-hour based on using 80% of the battery's nominal 512Wh capacity*)

Although I have other uses for it, the battery's main job will be to provide portable power for film lights. While $400 may sound like a lot, it is significantly less per watt-hour than standard solutions, such as V-mount lithium-ion batteries and a V-mount charger. For example, this Anton/Bauer V-mount kit, which consists of two 92Wh batteries and a charger, and which is more expensive if the components are purchased separately, sells for $826. That's $4.50 per watt-hour, more if the batteries' full capacity isn't used.

I spent what I was comfortable with on battery components. I could have spent less, for example by purchasing a cheaper battery charger. Luckily, I already have the tools that I need for this project (list in post #51), and only purchased one new one, the 10mm insulated wrench.

I will probably purchase at least one additional set of battery cables. The current configuration (ring terminals at the battery end, wire ferrules at the other) is specific to the SureSine inverter. It's likely that I'll also use this battery to power lights (and perhaps some other devices that are natively DC) directly, which will require cables with a different termination.

Finally, what I haven't spent money on... I considered but rejected the idea of using Anderson Power connectors. For my purposes, I concluded that they won't save time. Based on my personal experience with running ciné cameras and film lights on lithium-ion batteries, I also think that actual runtime tests with devices that I want to power will be more useful than readouts from a battery monitor, while also avoiding the additional wiring and bulk of a shunt.

* According to the vendor's capacity test, the battery's actual capacity is 570Wh (see post 24 and following).

 

[MrNatural22]

I was curious To see how much use I would get from one of the Valence batteries for my Bpap machine out camping Respronics 12v operation. I have been using it for two 8.5 hour nights with the pre heated wet section operating on level 1 out of 5 with no problems. (Using it without moisture is quite uncomfortable as it drys out your nasal passage) Tonight will be the 3rd night with out charging. ? I’ll post tomorrow on how it’s doing.