Severe capacity degradation of 280Ah cells -- warning!

wholybee

Solar Addict
Sorry to hear about your experience. I might have use a different calculation-perhaps less technically accurate but easier for PayPal to understand. Cells are at EOL at 80%. The cells you received are at 85% They are very near EOL, and thus you should get a full refund.
 

Wavepax

Solar Enthusiast
^

"If people start holding Paypal accountable for their Paypal Protection Program (which covers fraud) and hold them to justice in small claims court when they side with a fraudulent seller (in just this case, about $1450 dollars of fraud), then Paypal will actually have to take responsibility for their actions when siding with a provably fraudulent seller"

Yes, that is in fact one reason why justice systems exist. If a seller advertises they will sell you 16 new Varicore 280Ah cells for $2020 and then the seller proceeds to send you 16 highly capacity degraded cells (85% of rated 280Ah capacity, corresponding to 70% lifetime Ah loss), then that seller is guilty of false advertising and fraud.

When Will Prowse capacity tests LiFePO4 cells on youtube videos, he tests at above 0.14C almost always. In the video I linked to, Will tested Eve cells at around 1C and the cells exceeded advertised capacity. I tested at a relatively gentle 1/7C. Will is correctly capacity testing the LiFePO4 cells, as am I. In fact, I tested to spec, as the voltage and current vs. time graphs from the professional EBC-A40L tester prove.

That superb website gives the Paypal legal department address that you send your Demand letter and the Small Claims Court notice via registered mail. It gives a table of the maximum claims amount per State. I am so very glad a person took the time to provide this very useful information in the world. Thank goodness for people who have a strong sense of justice. Will is another person who also has a strong sense of justice.

If Paypal dispute resolution sides with a fraudulent seller, I will hold them financially responsible. You can bet on that. The fee is $60 to file in Small Claims Court in my locale. To get $1450 worth of justice, I am OK with that fee.
 

Wavepax

Solar Enthusiast
Sorry to hear about your experience. I might have use a different calculation-perhaps less technically accurate but easier for PayPal to understand. Cells are at EOL at 80%. The cells you received are at 85% They are very near EOL, and thus you should get a full refund.

Yeah, that is easier to understand.

The specifications from the manufacturer specify the cell lifetime as 4000 cycles. The capacity degradation vs. cycle curve goes out to 3500 cycles -- if you linearly extrapolate to 4000 cycles, 80% capacity degradation will be reached. I based my evidence on manufacturer specifications, which was specified in cycles. Either way, I had to submit the capacity degradation vs. cycle spec curve to 100% prove fraud.

The latest with Paypal -- the backroom decision maker (that I never get to converse with), made the provably false claim that I degraded the cells to 85% capacity !!! Since my test equipment maxes out at 40A, it would take 7.5 years of full time cycling to cycle 2750 cycles. It took me over 2 week just to cycle each cell once for the capacity test. The evidence that I had already provided proves that claim to be false. This is the injustice from Paypal that I am relying on to impartially review the evidence in dispute resolution? I called Paypal and got the dispute reopened. All behavior that I'm seeing from the backroom part of Paypal is that they are going out of their way, to the point of lying (easily provable lies), to side with a fraudulent seller. I found out the first name of the backroom person who both lied and sided with the fraudulent seller twice -- the first name is Shi.

The strength of my submitted evidence is so strong that the decision maker who wants to side with the fraudulent seller was forced to make a written lie in the dispute case. It will give me great pleasure in Small Claims Court to point out that lie.
 

Wavepax

Solar Enthusiast
Someone linked this recently and I hope it’s not weird to link it here in context of LiFePO4 cell degradation:

It’s kind of long and definitely recommend 1.25x playback speed. some interesting info maybe. under the header of general info.

thanks again for posting your analysis!

Excellent information in that video about LiFePO4 cell degradation. Thanks for posting it.
 

wholybee

Solar Addict
Unfortunately, I doubt you have a court claim against Paypal. If for no other reason than that you agreed to binding arbitration and gave up your right to sue them. But also because you have to prove that Paypal has actually done something wrong. You previously agreed to their payment protection process, and not you are not accepting that processes outcome. A battle against PayPal would be a difficult one that you would surely lose. Your dispute is with the seller, not paypal.

I don't understand why people use paypal. It only exists because of it's early integration with Ebay. Their dispute resolution sucks and always has. I know many people that have been screwed by paypal and refuse to use them now. Both buyers and sellers. Myself on both ends of that and I will never use them again. What I get from my credit union is 100x better. I call them up and tell them to reverse the charges, and they do. Money is back in my account in 24 hours. It's that simple.

Sorry about your loss :(
 

Smokin

Solar Enthusiast
Looks like you got 240 cells. If they all measure at the same Ah then the cells are probably fine. It seems like they are not depriciated, just smaller than what you thought they would be. My guess is they are fine and put them in service.
PP sux Oh Yeah,
 

Wavepax

Solar Enthusiast
Unfortunately, I doubt you have a court claim against Paypal. If for no other reason than that you agreed to binding arbitration and gave up your right to sue them. But also because you have to prove that Paypal has actually done something wrong. You previously agreed to their payment protection process, and not you are not accepting that processes outcome. A battle against PayPal would be a difficult one that you would surely lose. Your dispute is with the seller, not paypal.

I don't understand why people use paypal. It only exists because of it's early integration with Ebay. Their dispute resolution sucks and always has. I know many people that have been screwed by paypal and refuse to use them now. Both buyers and sellers. Myself on both ends of that and I will never use them again. What I get from my credit union is 100x better. I call them up and tell them to reverse the charges, and they do. Money is back in my account in 24 hours. It's that simple.

Sorry about your loss :(

Paypal paided using my checking account at Etrade instead of a credit card, which is also an option. I am assuming 'stop payment' won't work since the check was 'settled'.

Paypal is liable for their Paypal Protection Program, which supposedly covers seller fraud.
 

Wavepax

Solar Enthusiast
Looks like you got 240 cells. If they all measure at the same Ah then the cells are probably fine. It seems like they are not depriciated, just smaller than what you thought they would be. My guess is they are fine and put them in service.
PP sux Oh Yeah,

That's possible. The measured capacity was between 237 and 241 Ah for all 16 cells. The cell serial numbers varied wildly. I list them below.

Box 1
6800226694767423
6482651087673455
6673431666920052
6198459772849641
Box 2
6743112954884302
6747030164596946
6686016633636818
6050477741277706
Box 3
6654651903687247
6338793612550251
6418258906073656
6866902201538050
Box 4
6449544491945537
6329736587866103
6084042606176364
6966133726759315
 

Wavepax

Solar Enthusiast
AliExpress prevents buyers from leaving feedback on orders brought into dispute, even after the dispute is closed. I just tried. That is great for fraudulent sellers on AliExpress as the buyers can't warn others of any fraud that they experienced through AliExpress.

Contrast that with Amazon. I can leave feedback on any product that I bought through Amazon, no matter how long ago purchased. That helps greatly with identifying a dud product or fraud. I spend time looking at one-star ratings before purchasing on Amazon to get an idea with problems with the product or seller. Same with Harbor-Freight.

I just logged into AliExpress, and no feedback is allowed on an item that I bought on June 3rd, 2021. It looks like AliExpress prevents feedback after two months. And no feedback on any product brought to dispute. That's horrible.
 

Short_Shot

Photon Sorcerer
Looks like you got 240 cells. If they all measure at the same Ah then the cells are probably fine. It seems like they are not depriciated, just smaller than what you thought they would be. My guess is they are fine and put them in service.
PP sux Oh Yeah,
Idk if this was aimed at me or not (I reported 240 somewhere) but mine are the size and weight of 280s.
 

Usangira

New Member
AliExpress prevents buyers from leaving feedback on orders brought into dispute, even after the dispute is closed. I just tried. That is great for fraudulent sellers on AliExpress as the buyers can't warn others of any fraud that they experienced through AliExpress.

Contrast that with Amazon. I can leave feedback on any product that I bought through Amazon, no matter how long ago purchased. That helps greatly with identifying a dud product or fraud. I spend time looking at one-star ratings before purchasing on Amazon to get an idea with problems with the product or seller. Same with Harbor-Freight.

I just logged into AliExpress, and no feedback is allowed on an item that I bought on June 3rd, 2021. It looks like AliExpress prevents feedback after two months. And no feedback on any product brought to dispute. That's horrible.
Aliexpress complaints are just too much....I just decided to buy batteries in China and get them tested while still in China before being loaded by cargo agent to my address
 

Hedges

I See Electromagnetic Fields!
By the time 280 Ah cells have degraded 14% in capacity, would you expect such a tight distribution between them?
Any indication they are second hand other than capacity?
Do you have Internal Resistance figures? (I'm not sure how they vary with age, but I'd expect they do)
I'm inclined to think they are nominally 240 Ah (size and weight not withstanding)


I have PayPal draw from credit card rather than from my bank account.
 

wholybee

Solar Addict
Paypal paided using my checking account at Etrade instead of a credit card, which is also an option. I am assuming 'stop payment' won't work since the check was 'settled'.

Paypal is liable for their Paypal Protection Program, which supposedly covers seller fraud.
I would check with Etrade. I've never dealt with them, maybe they will help. My Credit Union is a checking account, too. It doesn't matter if it is settled. They can reverse the charges if they choose too. A credit union is basically a non-profit bank. The goal is simply to do what members need them to without profit as a motive. Much better than any for profit financial institution.

If you read the Paypal agreements, you agree that you will abide with their fraud investigation. You do not get to determine if it was fraud. They do, and you (unknowingly) agreed to accept that. And if you want to dispute that, you have also given up your right to sue them, instead you agree to arbitration. It is a terrible arrangement. Like I said, many, many people won't do business with them because of these practices.
 

Hedges

I See Electromagnetic Fields!
PayPal's business is transferring money between people according to their instructions.
Covering fraudulent sellers can be an added feature, but they have to charge an insurance premium on all transactions to cover some percentage losses.
Credit card companies do that with their 1% to 3% merchant fee, and have to manage risk and reliability of merchants in some way.
Escrow, where funds are released when buyer expresses satisfaction? Many alternatives, each with its own problems.
We want to buy at rock bottom prices which are offered by Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves, but also want 100% guarantee of both delivery and quality, without making a payment for that.
Seems to me Trusted, Long-time sellers is one approach. Let the cream float to the top.
 

wholybee

Solar Addict
PayPal's business is transferring money between people according to their instructions.
One of my gripes with Paypal is that they don't actually do this. Back when I used them, and when I had my Bank Account linked to them, they on several occasions withdrew money from my checking account without my prior approval, based on fictitious stories from a 3rd party.
Covering fraudulent sellers can be an added feature, but they have to charge an insurance premium on all transactions to cover some percentage losses.
Credit card companies do that with their 1% to 3% merchant fee, and have to manage risk and reliability of merchants in some way.
Escrow, where funds are released when buyer expresses satisfaction? Many alternatives, each with its own problems.
We want to buy at rock bottom prices which are offered by Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves, but also want 100% guarantee of both delivery and quality, without making a payment for that.
Seems to me Trusted, Long-time sellers is one approach. Let the cream float to the top.
There is a difference between providing insurance, and just following my directions. Paypal will not follow my direction, my Credit Union will In the case that a transaction is reversed, the bank is not paying me out from an insurance policy. They are not taking the loss. They are simply following my direction that I don't want to pay the vendor, and any further dispute is between me and the vendor, and will be handled in court without the banks involvement. My credit union *pays me* to have an account with them. I get a couple hundred dollars per year in total. There are no fees. No premiums, I don't even pay ATM fees at other banks' ATMs. And If I ask them to reverse a charge (I do that about once per year) they just do it. They will also beat any banks interest rate on mortgage or car loans. Credit Unions, or at least good ones, are the only way to go.

100% agree-trusted sellers only. I will never use Alixxx, even with "trusted" sellers.
 

AE4KR

Ham Radio Tinkerer
This is not the first time that I have experienced fraud from a seller on AliExpress...AliExpress allows proven fraudulent sellers to continue to use their platform. This is one reason why there are so many fraudulent sellers on AliExpress.
I'm sorry for your situation, but I feel compelled to observe that you chose to return to a marketplace you knew supported fraud, and roll the dice on an untested vendor. If we all just refused to do this, Chinese vendors would learn that a reputation for honesty supports higher prices.

One of the major benefits of this forum for me is the shared experiences. Ditto for Will's videos. Amy Zheng at Docan is an example of a Chinese rep who has learned through years of experience that honesty and product support build brand credibility which has real value in the US market. She follows the forum and communicates through it; she recently posted this acknowledgment of what she's learned through interacting with us.

Old proverb: "A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others."

Right now, like it or not, all the LiFePo4 products come from China. Disreputable Chinese companies (and entire marketplaces) figure they have us by the 'nads. Happily, a few seem to have figured out that having a trusted brand is good for business. Let's look for those, call them out publicly here, and support them.
 

Wavepax

Solar Enthusiast
Glad to hear you got a form of resolution!

Yes! Thank you.

I just checked under a black top that was peeling off one of the cells. There was a square area scratched out on the aluminum. I took a magnifying glass out and was able to make out "770Wh" that the fraudulent seller missed scratching out. That agrees with the capacity that I measured.
 

Wavepax

Solar Enthusiast
I just read pages and pages of one star comments on this fraudulent seller -- most of the comments were after when I purchased.

AliExpress knows this is a fraudulent seller ripping off multiple dozens of people!
 

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