Signature Solar said "Will Prowse setup is wrong and dangerous"

[jhcrowe]

Will's video "Beginner Friendly 48V Solar Power System! Step by step!" inspired me to purchase my 1st solar setup:
EG4 LifePower4 Lithium Battery | 48V 100AH
EG4 3kW Off-Grid Inverter | 3000EHV-48
4 x 415 Watt Panels

The system is stand alone (There is no other power coming in besides the panels).
As Will suggested I used a power strip for my output. I am only running a 60W light off the power strip. The light flickers all the time so I called Signature Solar's customer support. They stated quite clearly that I must connect the output to a grounded panel and that Will's video is wrong and dangerous to me and any equipment connected to the power strip. Being so new this concerned me enough that I have disconnected everything hoping to get some clarification:
1. Is Signature solar correct that the current setup is dangerous to me and anything connected to the power strip?
2. Why does signature solar think Will's setup is incorrect?
3. Is connecting to a grounded panel the only way to stop the light from flickering?

Thanks in advance for everyone's help!

 

[Jarrett_Mccool]

As Will suggested I used a power strip for my output.

This is typically the reason they say that. Most power strips are not rated for the amount of power that the inverter can output, and MOST people use is for a lot more than 60w of lights.
I have seen beginner solar installations with power strips on the output of the inverter and they are powering far more than that surge protector can handle (skill saws, power tools, AC Units, etc...). Those extension chords and power strips typically melt because there is no path to ground, and the heat starts to make the components fail.

3. Is connecting to a grounded panel the only way to stop the light from flickering?

If you are not running a ground from the inverter to a ground rod, then yes. You need to make sure that the system has a path to ground.

 

[hwy17]

A lot of what we do here is wrong and dangerous. Tread carefully.

 

[BrendanK]

This is typically the reason they say that. Most power strips are not rated for the amount of power that the inverter can output, and MOST people use is for a lot more than 60w of lights.
I have seen beginner solar installations with power strips on the output of the inverter and they are powering far more than that surge protector can handle (skill saws, power tools, AC Units, etc...). Those extension chords and power strips typically melt because there is no path to ground, and the heat starts to make the components fail.


If you are not running a ground from the inverter to a ground rod, then yes. You need to make sure that the system has a path to ground.

if the panel is grounded to a ground rod does that count?

 

[ksmithaz1]

This is typically the reason they say that. Most power strips are not rated for the amount of power that the inverter can output, and MOST people use is for a lot more than 60w of lights.
I have seen beginner solar installations with power strips on the output of the inverter and they are powering far more than that surge protector can handle (skill saws, power tools, AC Units, etc...). Those extension chords and power strips typically melt because there is no path to ground, and the heat starts to make the components fail.


If you are not running a ground from the inverter to a ground rod, then yes. You need to make sure that the system has a path to ground.

I will admit it may not be ideal, however, most power strips are rated at 120v/15A. and use #14 wire pigtails. They typically have a breaker/fault switch, and are generally 3-prong grounded NEMA 5-15 outlets. That means it should handle 12A sustained at 120v = ~1500Watts

Therefore your statement makes no sense, since the outlets should be grounded. Most small power tools use <1000 watts and rarely would you have more than one operating at the same time. Non-the-less it should blow the breaker on the strip if you pull too many amps.

Having a path to ground has nothing whatsoever to do with overloading, ground is a safety issue to trip breakers. Nothing will melt because it has no path to ground. If you have no breaker on the strip, then you could melt it by overloading it.

 

[hwy17]

Did I hear recently that the 3k's being made now have no internal neutral ground bonding method? If that is true that's why you can't follow will's video. And you will need to wire out to a panel where you can bond them yourself.

 

[Jarrett_Mccool]

Therefore your statement makes no sense, since the outlets should be grounded. Most small power tools use <1000 watts and rarely would you have more than one operating at the same time. Non-the-less it should blow the breaker on the strip if you pull too many amps.

If I am understanding correctly, OP is not running to an outlet though. OP is running it straight from the output of the inverter.

 

[ksmithaz1]

if the panel is grounded to a ground rod does that count?

If your inverter is hanging on the wall, all by itself, and grounded to a ground rod, and you only hang a simple power strip off it that has an appropriately sized breaker, that should suffice, and be reasonably safe. If you have things connected to panels, then everything needs to ground to the same ground rod, so generally you would run the ground from the inverter into the panel ground, and bond any neutral there.

 

[SolarScott]

A lot of what we do here is wrong and dangerous. Tread carefully.

Photons kill.....I think maybe the gubberment should outlaw them......

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

Power strip = test/project work, not production. At some reasonable point in time, turn your test/project *into* production work.

Integrate (the world's smallest/cheapest) circuit-breaker panel in the mix. Run real wiring, suitably sized, to outlets. Ground the system correctly. From that outlet, run a power strip ... and even then, the code gods will frown upon you, and the electricians will laugh at you, because there is a power strip there, and not an outlet.

If DIY, then something like "power strips require no thought (into design, safety, etc.); outlets require thinking ahead" ... give it some thought; you won't keel over dead. Although, your head might explode, if you start reading the codes yourself ...

If unsure, get some help! The worst that can happen is some uncontrollable laughing, but then, most folks will settle down and help you ...

Hope this helps ...

 

[Jmhai3]

I plan to build the 48v cart setup soon. If I plan to setup just as mentioned in the video and power a refrigerator, TV, modem/Wi-Fi, and maybe a lamp during power outages which usually don't last longer than a day or two, will this not be safe?

Why would this need to be grounded if none of the current market solar generators (Ecoflow, Bluette and such) require grounding to use?
I am learning so if asking a stupid question, apologies.
Hate to have to spend almost triple the money to get close to the capabilities of the 48v cart setup.

 

[ksmithaz1]

We are talking a 3KW inverter . . .

I plan to build the 48v cart setup soon. If I plan to setup just as mentioned in the video and power a refrigerator, TV, modem/Wi-Fi, and maybe a lamp during power outages which usually don't last longer than a day or two, will this not be safe?

Why would this need to be grounded if none of the current market solar generators (Ecoflow, Bluette and such) require grounding to use?
I am learning so if asking a stupid question, apologies.
Hate to have to spend almost triple the money to get close to the capabilities of the 48v cart setup.

Grounding is to protect you. Electrically a ground is the most dense conductive material around. In an RV or car for example that would be the chassis. If you are running a small stand-alone inverter unit that is properly fused to a single set of outlets (Just like a portable generator) you should be fine, make sure all your grounding is to the chassis/cart you mount everything to. If you can (Just like a portable generator) it is a good idea to run a ground rod back to that chassis if you can for additional safety. If you start wiring out to a house or other non-portable structure you need to ground everything from that structure and your equipment to a common ground point which grounds to earth.

 

[Quattrohead]

Those extension chords and power strips typically melt because there is no path to ground

Really ?????

 

[ksmithaz1]

Really ?????

He meant that snow on the ground will melt when the sun hits it. ?!

 

[Bob B]

Seems like if you are going to start a thread like this you should tag @Will Prowse

 

[Jarrett_Mccool]

Really ?????

Let me rephrase:
I have seen plenty of surge protectors melt due to the amount of heat passing through it. Not a lack of ground.

Sorry. I have too many tabs open and a lot of conversations I'm trying to respond to. Should have taken my time with my response.

 

[Rednecktek]

Photons kill.....I think maybe the gubberment should outlaw them......

They already tax them, don't give 'em any ideas!! ?

 

[Jmhai3]

We are talking a 3KW inverter . . .

Grounding is to protect you. Electrically a ground is the most dense conductive material around. In an RV or car for example that would be the chassis. If you are running a small stand-alone inverter unit that is properly fused to a single set of outlets (Just like a portable generator) you should be fine, make sure all your grounding is to the chassis/cart you mount everything to. If you can (Just like a portable generator) it is a good idea to run a ground rod back to that chassis if you can for additional safety. If you start wiring out to a house or other non-portable structure you need to ground everything from that structure and your equipment to a common ground point which grounds to earth.

Understand about the inverter referenced, I have never grounded my generators before but now you got me thinking.

So, if I read you right you are saying I could run a ground strap/wire from the cart (EG4-3K mounted directly to it... metal to metal) to any metal source that is connected with the ground of my house (home fuse box or metal conduit) and that would be adequate protection for me/family, or if outside a rod driven into the ground attached to the cart (or does the metal cart touching the bare ground enough) and keep the volts/amps below the power strip maximum allowable usage. 120v/15amps.

He does mention (Will in the first or second updated video) that two power strips can be attached for this setup. Will this allow both to be used at the same time allowing two sources of 120v/15amp capacity?

 

[SamDeleted]

If your inverter is hanging on the wall, all by itself, and grounded to a ground rod, and you only hang a simple power strip off it that has an appropriately sized breaker, that should suffice, and be reasonably safe. If you have things connected to panels, then everything needs to ground to the same ground rod, so generally you would run the ground from the inverter into the panel ground, and bond any neutral there.

Also you need breakers/fuses and RCD on the AC output

 

[ksmithaz1]

Understand about the inverter referenced, I have never grounded my generators before but now you got me thinking.

So, if I read you right you are saying I could run a ground strap/wire from the cart (EG4-3K mounted directly to it... metal to metal) to any metal source that is connected with the ground of my house (home fuse box or metal conduit) and that would be adequate protection for me/family, or if outside a rod driven into the ground attached to the cart (or does the metal cart touching the bare ground enough) and keep the volts/amps below the power strip maximum allowable usage. 120v/15amps.

He does mention (Will in the first or second updated video) that two power strips can be attached for this setup. Will this allow both to be used at the same time allowing two sources of 120v/15amp capacity?

You pretty much understand. You do not want TWO different grounds from your gear to earth. Only one. If the stuff you are powering is going to be connected to house ground (Generally should not be if you unplug it) say thru a different grounding mech, you would want to use that ground only.

Yes 2 power strips with breakers would act like a breaker panel with two circuit breakers. Spend a few extra and get a couple of nicer (Ebay used?) 20A PDU's for computer gear that have a more robust breaker. I'd look at the Cyberpower rackmount units. The breaker is sized for the wiring not the source output, so with a 3KW unit you would you could push lopsided, but still protect the wiring from cooking A 20A PDU is de-rated to 16A, so more inline with your max output as well. They usually have longer pigtails, you could rig them to detach from your cart, or just trim the pigtails and stuff them into the inverter, mount it up like a generator. Use a Ferrule to combine the leads, make sure your phasing is the same in both strips.

 

[mikefitz]

you need breakers/fuses and RCD on the AC output

RCD, GFCI, will only protect if the power source in grounded and there is a neutral to protective earth bond.

 

[Jmhai3]

You pretty much understand. You do not want TWO different grounds from your gear to earth. Only one. If the stuff you are powering is going to be connected to house ground (Generally should not be if you unplug it) say thru a different grounding mech, you would want to use that ground only.

Yes 2 power strips with breakers would act like a breaker panel with two circuit breakers. Spend a few extra and get a couple of nicer (Ebay used?) 20A PDU's for computer gear that have a more robust breaker. I'd look at the Cyberpower rackmount units. The breaker is sized for the wiring not the source output, so with a 3KW unit you would you could push lopsided, but still protect the wiring from cooking A 20A PDU is de-rated to 16A, so more inline with your max output as well. They usually have longer pigtails, you could rig them to detach from your cart, or just trim the pigtails and stuff them into the inverter, mount it up like a generator. Use a Ferrule to combine the leads, make sure your phasing is the same in both strips.

Very helpful thanks,

Will look into the better quality 20A PDUs you mentioned.

 

[Jmhai3]

This may be common knowledge but if I was to have the EG4-3k cart setup plugged into the house wall outlet while the power is out and it running a refrigerator plugged into the power strip, the system is technically grounded thru the house outlet for AC charging cord and if the power comes back on during the night the system will start charging the battery and continue to run the fridge. Right?

This will be the likely use for this system for me. Solar will be a stand alone function not running anything off of it as during the day I have a generator to handle day time needs during power outages.

 

[ksmithaz1]

This may be common knowledge but if I was to have the EG4-3k cart setup plugged into the house wall outlet while the power is out and it running a refrigerator plugged into the power strip, the system is technically grounded thru the house outlet for AC charging cord and if the power comes back on during the night the system will start charging the battery and continue to run the fridge. Right?

This will be the likely use for this system for me. Solar will be a stand alone function not running anything off of it as during the day I have a generator to handle day time needs during power outages.

Really, really, really bad idea.
Really bad, no really.

Magic smoke time.

 

[ksmithaz1]

This may be common knowledge but if I was to have the EG4-3k cart setup plugged into the house wall outlet while the power is out and it running a refrigerator plugged into the power strip, the system is technically grounded thru the house outlet for AC charging cord and if the power comes back on during the night the system will start charging the battery and continue to run the fridge. Right?

This will be the likely use for this system for me. Solar will be a stand alone function not running anything off of it as during the day I have a generator to handle day time needs during power outages.

You need a transfer switch/interlock if you want to connect to your house wiring. Rolling a cart over and plugging in a couple of TV's and fridge is one thing. The minute you tie it to your house wiring you completely changed the paradigm. A suicide cord is a bad idea.