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Small emergency power supply

TheOldHobbit

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Joined
Aug 10, 2022
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Good afternoon peeps. I recognise the need for a small supplementary power supply to run a fridge or freezer, charge USB devices should we experience a short term power loss. I have just bought a small system from Renogy which has been delivered and feel that what I now have should suffice.

I am in the South Easy of the UK, not the sunniest spot in the world, but we do get a fair amount of good sunshine. The system I have is listed below and my question for those with much more experience that I is two fold.... 1) Parallel or Series..... 2) cable sizing......

4 x Renogy 100w panels (VOC 24.3v 5.21amp)
1 x Renogy Rover Li MPPT 30amp 100v 12v 400w (Blue tooth)
1 x Renogy PSW 2000 inverter
1 x 200amp 12v Lithium Battery (Blue tooth)(still to be shipped)
4 into 1 connectors
200amp inline fuse ( between battery and inverter)
30amp fuse (from solar panels to controller)

I favour a simple parallel system feeding my controller and battery, but I am not sure if a Series system would be better in terms of solar generation?

The standard + - cables on the panel are quite thin, do I need to get a thicker wire from my panels to the controller, the run is going to be about 6 meters.

Sorry with all the questions, but I don't want to blow myself up or the system ?

Kind Regards TheOldHObbit
 
Welcome to the forums!

...small supplementary power supply...I am in the South Easy of the UK... ?️?️
Easiest: Trade up to an EV that can be used as a backup generator. No sunshine is required. ; -)

... I have just bought a small system from Renogy ...
I haven't used their stuff, but they don't have the best rep on the forums... hope yours works great though.

... my question for those with much more experience that I is two fold.... 1) Parallel or Series.....
See Figuring out how many panels in series and parallel based on your MPPT
Renogy's user manual should probably provide guidance on it since everything is their system.

2) cable sizing......
See What wire gauge should I use? (video, calculator)
 
Thank you for your very prompt, yet detailed reply. I am a little worried now about the rep of Renogy, yet when I did a little research, they seemed fair to middling, oh well I'm committed now. I'll use some of the links you have kindly supplied to see if I can ascertain the best cable lay from my panels to the controller, provided the controller receptor point are big enough to take the recommended wire. This is all new, but I will remain positive in my approach and see how I get on. Thank you again......
 
... I am a little worried now about the rep of Renogy
Don't be... UK has good consumer protection laws from what I've heard. Every manufacturer has stuff that slips through QA and if you bought new you have a warranty, so if it doesn't work you should be able to get it replaced. It's probably more of a frustration factor in trying to get things to work or an annoyance of going through the RMA if something doesn't work or fails partially a year in and trying to debug it I suspect.

... This is all new, but I will remain positive in my approach and see how I get on....
I hope to hear more about your adventures, would like to know the trials & tribulations you go through in the UK. Also hope you attach photos and talk about the system in the show 'n tell subforum when done! ; -)
 
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1 x 200amp 12v Lithium Battery (Blue tooth)(still to be shipped)
The standard + - cables on the panel are quite thin, do I need to get a thicker wire from my panels to the controller, the run is going to be about 6 meters.

Did you mean 200amp BMS or 200Ah? If 2000w inverter, 2000w/12v == 167amps would be the max amps that would be flowing (if no losses). Make sure this can be handled by the BMS and the battery wires properly.
 
Apologies for the delay in updating how things are going, unfortunately we had a death in the family:

I have checked the battery and it is a Renogy BT 200ah Lifepo4. All these little acronyms get me confused :unsure:.

My 4 x 100w panels are now mounted on the frame and place on my flat garage roof which is South facing. I have obtained the mounting board for the 30a MPPT solar controller and 2000w PSW inverter which I hope to complete today. The PV cables have been ordered (6mm) which I beleive are well within tolerance of the max output from the 400w array, so once they arrive I can drill through the wall, add a weather seal gland and complete the run to the controller.

Fuses confuse me, so please bear with me on this. It was recommended that I purchase an inline 30a fuse to go between the panel array and the controller, I have done this so I hope this was the right thing to do ?, someone did suggest that it was not needed(!). I have a 200a fuse to go between the battery and the inverter with its position bolted onto the battery positive post, again I hope this is acceptable?. The one fuse that I have absolutely no idea about is the one between the controller and battery. The cable from the controller to the battery will be 6mm (10awg?) so not sure if this should be fused, and if so what size. Apologies for the questions, but this game is not so easy for some of us ??
 

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Regarding Renogy products, I am sure people's experience runs the gamut. When I was shopping, I knew some people had reported problems ranging from faulty operation to inadequate tech support. I have just completed the first full summer season (May-Oct) using a Renogy 60A MPPT controller and a 40A DC-DC charger in our caravan and they have served me well so far.

Both of my items were "a steal of a deal" on eBay and I was chuffed to land them for such a price. Sometimes advocates of "top-shelf" gear assume that everyone has the spare cash to buy the best. I too like good quality, but don't want the solar system to cost as much as my caravan!

Chances are, you'll be fine.
 
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You started this off with some data (we like that) and stated your just starting out/new/learning the 'lingo'
Small steps then: Lets start with the solar panels first.
Four 100W solar panels 24.3 VOC and 5.21A (we will assume you mean IMP or the curret at the peak max power point)
The four panels could be connected three different ways:
one string of plus to minus to plus to minus plugged in all the way down the line, this is called series connected and it adds the voltages, but not the amperages. We refer to this as 4S-1P The four PV panels wired this way could output up to 4x 24.3V (97.2Volts) but only 5.21 A total energy of 506 Watts.
two strings of 2 panels in series (like above) but those two strings connected together in parallel (we refer to this as 2S-2P) now your output could be be up to 2x 24.3V (48.6Volts) and now the amperage (current) will be 2x 5.21 = 10.42A and total energy is 48.6x10.42 = 506 Watts.
four parallel strings of one panel each (we call 1S-4P) and now the voltage will be 24.3V and the output amperages add and will be 20.84A total energy output now being 24.3V x 20.84A = 506 Watts - yes, all three arrangements result in different voltages and current but THE SAME total watts - no free lunch.
The important thing to know is you can vary the amperage and voltage by different PV-Panel connection strategies. Lower current/higher voltage means smaller wire sizes needed to safely carry that 506 Watts. But, higher voltages can be a problem for a charge controller if too high. You need to be in a range of both voltage and current that suits the charge controller (lingo: SCC = solar charge controller). I hope this answers your question about series and parallel connections.

Next Step: SCC - solar charge controller - you noted as 30A, 100 Volt.
From the three different PV panel arrangements possible, you could have 24.3, 48.6 or 97.2 volts possible. Generally we often chose the highest that suits the SCC, to reduce wire sizes and line losses. However, 'highest suitable' doesn't mean 97.2V with a SCC that is 100V max. you need some room for a few things (like a solar panel may actually put out higher voltage under cold conditions etc) so in this case 4 panels all in series is too high on voltage. The next step down available to you is 48.6V (2S-2P) so lets look at what amperage this configuration would have: 2S will mean your 5.21A x 2 = 10.42A this is much lower than the max you show of 30A and is therefore safe and could be set up this way.
There remains still one option, the four panels all in parallel. This would output 24.3V and 4x5.21 = 20.82 A still within the limits set by the SCC, but, if the conditions were poor, you might not achieve enough voltage to trigger charging in low light, and the 20.82A will require larger wire, and fuses (than 10.41A) with higher temps & line losses. Being in the UK with periods of low light, I suggest the 2S-2P connection as likely your best option. And to answer your question earlier - YES a fuse between the PV and the SCC is a good safety measure since it is entirely possible that some day, something happens to those lines or the insulation on them, and you need a fuse to cut off the circuit safely. But what size fuse? at 10.41A go with a 15A fuse, this will prevent tripping under normal conditions but be available if the current exceeds 'normal' current very much. Renogy (and others) make an inline fuse with MC-4 connection ends that can go right into your connections to the panels. They also make a 1x2 splitter to get the parallel to series connections you need if you go with 2S-2P configuration.

Next Step: Wire sizes PV to SCC
You comment that the PV wires look 'too small' however you can be sure they are sized to suit the panels there are on. If we continue with the 2S-2P arrangement we see that you need to safely carry 10.41 Amps, and if we allow some overage, 1.25x10.41 = 13Amps. {using a suitable calculator - I used the DC Cable sizing tool on Solar-Wind Co UK} picking some normal parameters, 3% line loss, 6 m run length 13A 48.6 volts it spits out 2.5mm2 cable (14ga. AWG on our side of the pond) you can be sure the PV panels come with larger than this size, and in the data sheet it will tell you the max parameters for the strings which this size cable will support. Since the calculator reports a smaller wire size, I would just match the PV cable size (likely 10AWG/6mm2) for your extension leads. This will just mean low line losses, and is not adding to your expenses in these sizes. Be sure to use UV rated cables where exposed to direct sunlight. I am not familiar with UK rules or cable designations, in many areas the cables need to be protected from rodents/birds that might chew/peck on the wire insulation, you should check local requirements.

Next Step: SCC to Battery
Your Renogy MPPT will convert the PV DC voltage and amperage to a suitable Voltage and Amperage to charge the battery(ies). The cables will now be carrying the same energy (watts) as the PV panels sent out, but now at a voltage closer to the battery voltage. In fact the MPPT will vary the voltage, but lets not get too complacated. Lets "say" the '12 volt' battery charges at 14VDC. Your 506 Watts will then be: 506/14V = 36Amps (yes there will be some losses, and all that but lets stay on track here). To carry the 36Amps you again use the DC calculator: I don't know the proper cable length so took as an example "2-meters" and plugging in the other values, it spits out 10mm2 cable (8AWG) -this is one place where if you had picked 24VDC for the batteries you would see a much smaller cable size {4mm2, 12AWG} - also this cable will be Very Sensitive to cable length, longer cable much bigger cables reqired. A 2-pole disconnect is a good idea here, for maintenance and safety reasons, oh and "disconnect" is a fancy word for "switch" and in DC it needs to be a DC rated 'switch'.

Next Step: Battery to Inverter
You noted your inverter is the Renogy 2000 and I am not familar with this model but assume it outputs 2000 Watts (perhaps with some peak output up to x 2 of this value?) and since your in the UK your inverter is outputting 230VAC power. So now the battery will supply DC voltage to the inverter, and we need the cable size to be large enough to safely supply the amperage the inverter could/may draw. The inverter may have instructions with it that specify the minimum wire size, if so follow that. By calculation, if we use 2x 2000 W as a peak draw, 4000W/12VDC = 333Amps (a lot of amperage, in fact too much) you noted a 200A fuse between battery and inverter, this will protect the wire up to 200A. Lets use 200A x 1.25 for the wire size, to allow your 200A fuse to protect this wire size: from the DC wire size calculator and again assuming 2-meters max cable length, it spits out 70mm2 (2/0-AWG) Although I typically go one size larger, if this will fit the inverter, to reduce line losses/remain cooler etc. Again longer cable will have huge impact on the DC wire sizing. Be sure to work carefully around battery terminals, a slip with a 'spanner' can lead to a bad day.

House wire/plugs? I don't know if the Renogy 2000 comes with outlets right on the inverter or if it needs to be wired into some usable recepticales - I suspect in this size, these units have outlets right on them.
Hope this helps you out, maybe it just created new questions, if so just ask, someone will step up and reply.
 
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Wow, that took some reading and as a total numpty, I had to read it very slowly:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:. There is still quite a bit I don't fully understand and at my age, new learning does not come easily. I am very conscious that playing with electric, even at this level needs to be done properly otherwise.... I dread to think.

Just to add, part of the system I bought included a 4 into 1 cabling system so 4 positives into 1 and 4 negatives into 1. I am trying to encourage a friend who is much more experienced that I to come over before I hook anything up, but I am still enjoying the little bits I am learning from you guys as I go, thank you for your help.
 
part of the system I bought included a 4 into 1 cabling system so 4 positives into 1 and 4 negatives into 1.
Then the option the seller has in mind for you is 1S-4P with all the panels connected in parallel. The 30A fuse you noted in the original posting makes sense with this option also.
Revisiting the calculations:
With 1S-4P your PV voltage will be about 24.3 and the amperage (current) will be up to 20.84
Now the wire size from the 4 into 1 MC-4 to your SCC (using the same calculator) spits out #8 AWG/ 10mm2 (using the same parameters as before for length and voltage drop).
If your unsure of the steps, a knowledgable friend is a great idea.
 
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With a 100V SCC, I would do 2S2P connect two of the panels positive to negative , then use the positive and negative of the opposing panel.
Then repeat it on the remaining panels, and feed the two into a single 10A conductor to the SCC..
This way you have higher voltage available to the SCC and smaller wires can be used. Also, fuses aren't needed between the strings.
 
With a 100V SCC, I would do 2S2P
Agree with you, but the OP is newbie and from the parts he has identified, they sent him 4:1 splitters and a 30A inline fuse.
To get started, using the parts he has, he could connect 1S-4P and get up and running, easy to later change out the 4:1 to 2:1 and series connect two panels up 2S-2P.
 
He could, although the fuse he has purchased is then bigger than what we would recommend. I wonder why they sold him the 4:1 instead of 2:1 splitters? the 2S 2P seems an obvious pick for this set up. Then again, sales people these days seldom seem to know much about what they are selling.
 
He could, although the fuse he has purchased is then bigger than what we would recommend. I wonder why they sold him the 4:1 instead of 2:1 splitters? the 2S 2P seems an obvious pick for this set up. Then again, sales people these days seldom seem to know much about what they are selling.
Fuses should be on each run, so the fuse should be sized for the max amps the panel can output... 1S, 2s, 3S or 4S 4P, 3P, 2P... all use same size fuse, no?
 
I would recommend a fuse on each string, as a precaution against a dead short. If he connects 2S-2P we would recommend 15A fuse for each string. The easy way for the OP to do this is to buy a couple of in-line MC-4 style 15A fuses and put one on each Positive lead string before the 2:1 spitter. In 2S there is no need to fuse each panel, he could just fuse each string, and even this is more protection than most of us would consider necessary since the 2S-2P is not creating a situation where loss of a single panel is going to result in any re-routing of current from the other panels/string.
My original consideration for the OP on PV fuses was to protect his SCC from a dead short from environmental/criter damage to the wire insulation. That and the idea of keeping his connections simple using the parts he already purchased, which seem to indicate a 4P design, although you and I agree 2S-2P is likely a better pick for his situation.
I hope we have not side-tracked too far from the original path here, lossing the Old Hobbit in the process, that was not the intention.
 
Did you mean 200amp BMS or 200Ah? If 2000w inverter, 2000w/12v == 167amps would be the max amps that would be flowing (if no losses). Make sure this can be handled by the BMS and the battery wires properly.

add 15% definiency for inverter loss (rule of thumb) 2000/12/0.85 = 196a

really it will be relative to the biggest load you plug in :)
 
add 15% definiency for inverter loss (rule of thumb) 2000/12/0.85 = 196a

really it will be relative to the biggest load you plug in :)
When Chess-equity commented on the "200A" to the OP - i am sure the OP meant "200Ahr battery" as they likely do not know what the max output amperage of the battery is, they stated they are new to the solar thing. They also noted in the parts they purchased, a 200A fuse to go between the battery and the inverter - although they didn't specify what kind of fuse they have, (ie T-class, ANL, Bussmann). At the entry level I suspect they have a simple ANL and holder.
As you say, for the fuse size, the 200A seems suitable for his set up.
 
Guys, thank you all so very much for not just the information, but taking the time to explain in as much details as you can what it best for my little emergency set up, I honestly do appreciate it. Today I finally showed my set up to the sun and connected it all up, about time too, but I have been busy lately with the passing of my mum.

Before start up, I downloaded both the apps I thought I would be using, Renogy BT and DC Home. DC Home offered me a direct link to the batteries inbuilt BT monitoring system, while the Renogy BT linked to the Rover 30a mppt controller. I connected the battery to the controller before introducing the panels and found a slightly worrying discrepancy, one showed my battery capacity at 100% while the other showed it at 41%, however both showed the same voltage and solar generation. The battery BT system showed the 41% while the charger showed 100% and having done a little searching, it seems I'm not the only one who has had problems with the Renogy apps. I am not particularly worried as I believe that the battery system is probably more accurate, but I just wondered how the controller knows that its dealing with a 200ah battery ?. I also noted that with the very little sun we had today, the battery BT showed an increase from 41% to 44%. Now don't shoot me, but the system is working and I am really happy, I just need to build my confidence levels a little that its just what I need. I have been advised to put a shunt in line if I want reasonably accurate information, but that's another story and something I had never heard off ;);). OBTW, a good spot on my 2 & 70 SSB yagi and rotator. I like amateur radio also (y). The little pictures below show how I am currently set up and all seems good. Thank you again.

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