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diy solar

Small wind turbines no longer worth it?

The engineers who made out best were the ones that built heavy duty towers in good locations as they ended up ripping down the wind turbines and leasing the tower out for cell antennas.
wheng wheng wheng wheng (this sound you hear in cartoons when things go wrong)

SO rather than ginving us more freedom. now there are more cell towers to give us less?

EDIT: I'll admit I am leaning again to going off topic. Something I should stop doing. But it gives soo much richness to so many conversations.
 
I briefly worked with a form in VT Northern Power that designed and built wind small wind turbines (Northwind 100s). Long before the company built the HR2 and HR3s that were popular. Many of the engineers were off grid at one point and many had tried wind. Across the board they all were of the opinion that small home scale wind was not worth the effort based on their experience. The engineers who made out best were the ones that built heavy duty towers in good locations as they ended up ripping down the wind turbines and leasing the tower out for cell antennas.
Thanks for sharing that! That was great to hear to that a few were able to salvage something out thier experience with small wind.
 
there is an ongoing issue with the forum software. it's no longer reliable. I have warned about it. all we can do now is see if someone picks it up

Except for email notifications, what other issue is there? @sunshine_eggo just didn't see my reply before he posted his comment and edited it accordingly.
 
Except for email notifications, what other issue is there? @sunshine_eggo just didn't see my reply before he posted his comment and edited it accordingly.
I guess the best/only way to describe it;
not all activity that one is subscribed to/expects to be alerted about
* shows up in emails (spam score not being the issue, it's just not being send)
* shows up in the Alert section (the bell icon)

Although not a security issue or an existential problem, it could result in people missing some crucial posts.

And the issues are most likly related to the forum software. As allaboutcircuits is using the same software and there also users have been reporting the same anti feature.
 
Just fyi, the smallest non "toy" turbine I know of is the 7m Bergey. They used to have a smaller one but I see they've gotten rid of that. There just isn't a lot of options below the 10kW range. There was another good one in the UK that had smaller ones from Proven Energy but they went bankrupt after a flaw was discovered in one of their turbine models.

There are at least 2 UK manufacturers of sub 10kW turbines that I would not put in the 'toy' category.

http://www.britwind.co.uk/our-windmills/the-r9000 (5kW)
https://sd-windenergy.com/small-wind-turbines/sd6-6kw-wind-turbine/

Having pointed these out, I have to say, the cost/return just doesn't seem worth it. I really would like an over winter solution as my PV output drops, and wind seems obvious, but the physics and maths and cost just don't add up

There is a YouTube video on the Fully Charged Channel, interviewing a chap from Britwind.
 
There are at least 2 UK manufacturers of sub 10kW turbines that I would not put in the 'toy' category.

http://www.britwind.co.uk/our-windmills/the-r9000 (5kW)
https://sd-windenergy.com/small-wind-turbines/sd6-6kw-wind-turbine/

Having pointed these out, I have to say, the cost/return just doesn't seem worth it. I really would like an over winter solution as my PV output drops, and wind seems obvious, but the physics and maths and cost just don't add up

There is a YouTube video on the Fully Charged Channel, interviewing a chap from Britwind.
SD Wind Energy looks like they are the ones that bought the assets of Proven Energy which went bankrupt after one of their popular turbine models had a design flaw and they couldn't recover from that.
 
SD Wind Energy looks like they are the ones that bought the assets of Proven Energy which went bankrupt after one of their popular turbine models had a design flaw and they couldn't recover from that.
I think you are right. Harrys Farm YouTube channel has one - he hasn't mentioned it much, but he is installing a lot of solar and at one point he bemoaned the fact that his turbine needed a lot of maintenance. Did you see the video I linked to? If, and its a huge if, I was going to install one, the R9000 is probably the one I would go for.
 
SD Wind Energy looks like they are the ones that bought the assets of Proven Energy which went bankrupt after one of their popular turbine models had a design flaw and they couldn't recover from that.
That certainly appears to be a remake of the ill fated Proven. I think it was far more than a design flaw, Prettys sure no one ever saw it make more than 35% of it predicted annual KWH's (AEO) and that's assuming you could keep it running for a year.

Wonder what the new people think they can do that last people couldn't?

And I know I've seen that R9000 under different name but can't place it now.

Having pointed these out, I have to say, the cost/return just doesn't seem worth it. I really would like an over winter solution as my PV output drops, and wind seems obvious, but the physics and maths and cost just don't add up
The turbines that really seems to last are the home made one using the Hugh Piggott design. I think one key is to keep rotor size to alternator power rating ratio very conservative, something the commercially small turbines don't do. EG: who cares what your turbine can produce at 10m/s?

I bumped in this older report from NZ. They don't pull any punches, rather refreshing. The below chart is perhaps the most compelling evidence that I've seen why small wind is really hard (impossible?) to make work. You should add the bin data up yourself but to my eye it looks like a turbine will spend around 5000 hours per year making almost no power and only 20 hours per at its rated power. Stupid physics and maths always get in the way!

1666540519968.png
 
I've had various wind electric turbines continuously for the last 40 years. My first was a 6 volt Wincharger, it and my pickup's battery were my sole source of power for a bit less then a year! I'd charge two golf cart batteries, and then swap the cables to get 12 volts, the pickup had dual batteries and was driven daily. When I upgraded to a 12 volt Wincharger, it was a big deal, same power but I could charge my 12 volt batteries direct, wow! 12 volt incadescent bulbs were in use then, 12 volt flourescents were just starting to appear. Then, I went big time, and bought a rebuilt Jacobs wind turbine, 3000 watts I think it was, at 32 volts, I had free used forklift batteries by then, and my first solar panels, 35 watt Arco panels. Another several years, and I had a A.R.E. 2500 watt 24 volt turbine, (modeled after the classic Jacobs, big rotor, turning slow) all my gear was 24 by then, and a whole 1000 watts of solar! Then I sold that off grid property, on the condition I install grid power (at the buyers cost), I did so and sold off most of my off grid specific gear and moved once again onto raw ground but instead of 5 acres, 40 this time, now 70 after recently buying another 30, all the early roughing it paid off, as did not having a mortgage or other loans.
To my surprise, a boarded up not lived in for 40 years house near the bottom of my mountain property had power, so I abandoned any plans to be off grid again, and for 3 K I ran underground power up to my homesite. Then I installed a grid tied micro hydro system, and a 4 KW solar system, and, mostly for old times sake and I was in the habit of having one, another A.R.E. turbine, all of this grid tied, with no battery backup. After about 28 years off grid, I have zero desire to have a battery bank ever again. The A.R.E. has performed flawlessly, with zero maintenance, for going on 16 years now, in a at time brutal weather area. On a 60' tower, with no obstructions, it's pretty quiet and performs very well in light winds and always protects itself in high, can't ask for much more then that in a small wind turbine (12 ' dia.) BUT....if it blew up tonight, I wouldn't replace it, no way. I'd buy more solar. BUT, if I was off grid, I'd have another one for sure, as there is nothing better on a long cold windy winter night to have 2 or 3 KW going into your battery bank. Grid tied? No thanks, solar is king there.
 
Real world assessment: This one has been running for about 18 months. It cost about $150. I estimate(disconnected the shunt meter about 6 months ago) it has produced around 45KWH in that time. It produces power at 4.5 mph. Average wind speeds here are 6mph (according to NOAH, although there is no official weather station near me and that is an average of nearby stations I expect it is really between 8-10mph avg). Wind gets up in the desert in the evening, which is nice. Regular winds of 30mph+ are common and there is no terrain to disrupt airflow.
During winds of 20 mph or over it sounds like Luke and Darth are having it out with their light sabers on the shop roof, but it takes some load off the charge controllers during the day and helps with depth of discharge at night. It makes power rain or shine, sunny or dark.
Although it's rated at 400w, I've not seen more than 250w on the meter ever.
20221023_162235.jpg
 
I've gone through two 1kw wind turbines (African wind power and a e300 Kestrel) and both have failed after only 2-3 years of use. At this point in time I am wondering if it makes sense for any land based installation to spend money on a mechanical system that is inherently less reliable then a passive system such as photovoltaics. The price for slight increase in number of panels + battery storage seems like would outweigh the hassle of any wind turbine. I assume there must be special cases but otherwise does it make any sense now-a-days?
I've been wanting a wind turbine so bad I can taste it.

But like every other investment, I did my homework and research. What I learned is that no one makes a small wind turbine that will ever pay for itself, let alone the tower and other supporting stuff.

To get a good wind turbine, you have to spend $20k and either buy one of the German units, or something like a Bergey, and $20k is the minimum.

Beyond that, the only other option is to build it yourself using good engineering and high quality components.

It just isn't worth it.
 
To get a good wind turbine, you have to spend $20k and either buy one of the German units, or something like a Bergey, and $20k is the minimum.

Beyond that, the only other option is to build it yourself using good engineering and high quality components.
From experience I can state the Bergey's actually have a negative ROI. There's no escaping it.

I think you'd lucky to get into a Bergey and it's least expensive tower for under $55k. Then add at least another $5k for installation.

One thing that Bergey fails to mention is that the blades are wear items with a life of 10 years or less at most sites. That's even if you replace the edge tape at the recommended 5 years which is no small task. 10 years ago a new set of blades would run at least $8k and you still have to install them.

We installed some Bergey's at very good sites. ~15 mph average treeless plains in Kansas on 120' towers and never saw more than 5,000 kWH's per year which was barely 25% of the 20,000 kWH/year that Bergey published. (that's going from memory but the point is that they GROSSLY overstate the potential production and they know it)

3 KW of PV will outproduce a Bergey at 99% of sites.
 
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running for about 18 months. It cost about $150
Can you tell us a bit more?

45kW at say a round number of 20cents/kW ish is $9 so $6/year so maybe 25-year “payback” - although I fully recognize that initial cost is often non-incidental when it enables living situations that drastically reduce typical/normal costs to live. For example my purchases of additional solar panels were ‘paid for’ inside of a month when renting would be $1400/month in the “real world.”

How many watts are you able to come up with at the 4.5mph you mentioned? Granted, your location provides an advantage with evening winds, but other regions won’t have that advantage. At $150 price of entry, though, it could be ‘cheap’ investment for some charge overnight.

What is the model/brand and how does it brake in high wind (or if there is no load because batteries are full or strong sun is out).

I’m just curious. In the right place wind could be a benefit, but if 5mph is only 10W at 15V generation that would be a typical “no it’s not worth it” scenario.
 
Real world assessment: This one has been running for about 18 months. It cost about $150. I estimate(disconnected the shunt meter about 6 months ago) it has produced around 45KWH in that time. It produces power at 4.5 mph. Average wind speeds here are 6mph (according to NOAH, ...
Although it's rated at 400w, I've not seen more than 250w on the meter ever.

45kWh over 18 months is 83Wh/day.
Average 3.5W from a turbine over 24 hours, 17W of PV panel for 5 hours/day or 42W from PV from 2 winter hours/day.

Equivalent to $10 or $20 additional PV panel, at a cost of $150
Not worth it on average, but at 100 to 200W or so, 2500 Wh to 5000 Wh on stormy days, could be useful.

"6 mph average wind speed" is the wrong kind of average.

For rainfall, (mean) average gives amount of water delivered.
Electricity delivers power proportional to square of voltage or current, so RMS.
Wind, power is proportional to cube of speed, so we need "Cubed ... Mean ... CubeRoot"
 
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