Small wind turbines no longer worth it?

[pollenface]

My 400w turbine has produced 4.0wh over about 6 weeks of "non-daylight hours". I don't live in a windy area. I just get the occasional gust. When the turbine goes it really goes but only for a few seconds at a time, the highest instantaneous output was 225w/8.5a in about 30kph gusts.

That said, I have a friend who lives near the sea and wind is his primary source of power, his single 700w turbine puts out about 9a nearly 24hrs a day.

I had to buy a turbine and learn how to control it to satisfy my curiosity. Now that I have done that, if I had my time over I would just buy another couple of batteries and expand my bank to maintain a higher level of charge throughout the night.

I'm trying to think of non-expensive ways to use my panels to dump excess energy to recycle throughout the night once the battery bank is full.

 

[Deveak]

You need to go really big to make it reliable in an off grid situation. its not about peak power but what you get at 8-10 MPH, which is usually not a lot. Unless you live in a good wind area, solar is cheaper and more reliable. The only upside to wind is possible night time production.
They have some serious drawbacks. Basically lightning rods and they require a significant upfront additional cost to make them work efficiently.
A direct to battery hook up with a dump load is only viable at 48 volts, maybe 24 volts if its small wind turbine but that kind of defeats the purpose. Even in three phase the low voltage would mean very expensive and thick wire and the dump loads would not match up to the wind turbine perfectly, so you end up with micro cycling. Only a handful of MPPT controllers support wind, I only know of one, the midnite classic and all require some sort of voltage sensing brake that switches the three phase over to a resistor bank to slow it down if the voltage gets to high, such as entering float in a wind storm. Midnite makes a clipper for that but its over 1200 dollars. So nearly 2 grand to make it charge the batteries correctly and efficiently. Doesn't make much sense for the common sub 600 dollar wind turbine with a 6 ft diameter turbine. Usually rated at some ridiculous speed and wattage you will never see.
The way I see it the only way to do wind in a way thats reliable and will charge your batteries is go big. Either a bergey wind turbine or a DIY wind turbine with a 10-12 ft blade diameter. You can make a more than half decent one out old truck parts. Brakes, rotors etc. Scorag Wind has a book on it. Pretty well thought out that includes how to make an axial flux pma. Something well suited for the low rpm.
Personally I would go with a LOT of blades. While it lowers the high speed performance, it helps in low speeds as long as the PMA is wired to take advantage of the extra torque. An example would be old style water windmills. Terrible at making power, which is true but in low speeds you will find more consistent performance. Something you might value over a high once a year output. A high torque windmill. A actual mechanical speed governor is a must. Relying on dump loads or electrical resistance along is a bad time.
Any one form of control or stopping is not enough. Just my .00002 adjusted for inflation. This is based off a lot of research, I do not own a windmill or wind turbine and probably never will. Solar is just so cheap.

 

[curiouscarbon]

You need to go really big to make it reliable in an off grid situation.

its not about peak power but what you get at 8-10 MPH, which is usually not a lot. Unless you live in a good wind area, solar is cheaper and more reliable. The only upside to wind is possible night time production.

They have some serious drawbacks. Basically lightning rods and they require a significant upfront additional cost to make them work efficiently.

A direct to battery hook up with a dump load is only viable at 48 volts, maybe 24 volts if its small wind turbine but that kind of defeats the purpose. Even in three phase the low voltage would mean very expensive and thick wire and the dump loads would not match up to the wind turbine perfectly, so you end up with micro cycling. Only a handful of MPPT controllers support wind, I only know of one, the midnite classic and all require some sort of voltage sensing brake that switches the three phase over to a resistor bank to slow it down if the voltage gets to high, such as entering float in a wind storm. Midnite makes a clipper for that but its over 1200 dollars. So nearly 2 grand to make it charge the batteries correctly and efficiently. Doesn't make much sense for the common sub 600 dollar wind turbine with a 6 ft diameter turbine. Usually rated at some ridiculous speed and wattage you will never see.

The way I see it the only way to do wind in a way thats reliable and will charge your batteries is go big. Either a bergey wind turbine or a DIY wind turbine with a 10-12 ft blade diameter. You can make a more than half decent one out old truck parts. Brakes, rotors etc. Scorag Wind has a book on it. Pretty well thought out that includes how to make an axial flux pma. Something well suited for the low rpm.

Personally I would go with a LOT of blades. While it lowers the high speed performance, it helps in low speeds as long as the PMA is wired to take advantage of the extra torque. An example would be old style water windmills. Terrible at making power, which is true but in low speeds you will find more consistent performance. Something you might value over a high once a year output. A high torque windmill. A actual mechanical speed governor is a must. Relying on dump loads or electrical resistance along is a bad time.

Any one form of control or stopping is not enough. Just my .00002 adjusted for inflation. This is based off a lot of research, I do not own a windmill or wind turbine and probably never will. Solar is just so cheap.

reformatted @Deveak's post because i thought it had good info but was hard for me to read. if it's annoying i'm happy to remove this post.

 

[chrisski]

I got the book @Deveak mentioned from Skorag wind: A recipe for Wind TUrbines. Teaches you how to build a wind turbine from scratch. Quite a process.

 

[Deveak]

I got the book @Deveak mentioned from Skorag wind: A recipe for Wind TUrbines. Teaches you how to build a wind turbine from scratch. Quite a process.

Its worth it though, the quality and reliability is high compared to similar priced windmills and allow you to custom tailor the wind turbine for your area. Most of us don't live in a good wind zone. Peak power is rare and honestly not needed. 300-400 watts at night though is and the more of that you can get the better.

reformatted @Deveak's post because i thought it had good info but was hard for me to read. if it's annoying i'm happy to remove this post.

Sorry, I am lazy and have poor grammar.

 

[Sirby]

That’s a shame. Would be nice if more people posted in this section about their experiences.

I’m really only looking for 150 wh to 300 wh a day. I think that’s a small goal. Wish I could find a wind site as active as this site.

With the little out there about it, you’d think I’m the first ever to try this. I doubt that’s true, but if no info is out there than that also tell me those who tried failed.

Did you find a, super active, Wind Generator site / forum ?

I want to tinker with a super small scale wind generation setup.
One with a generator radius of 24"-36" (max) and 100-300 watts (max), of generating power ?

I know, the smaller the blades, the less power you get.

I live in an urban / suburban, residential area n want to try wind before adding a 100 watt solar setup.

No heavy duty devices to draw from the setup. Just 2 5v security camera's, at best.

So a 4' + diameter turbine is a bit much, for my proposes.

Just found this site n like it for Solar. Not sure about it, for Wind yet ?

Does anyone know of that kind of smallish wind turbines ?
The ones I've seem are mostly around 4'+ in diameter.

Thx !

 

[Forbisher]

I live in an urban / suburban, residential area n want to try wind before adding a 100 watt solar setup.

No heavy duty devices to draw from the setup. Just 2 5v security camera's, at best.

So a 4' + diameter turbine is a bit much, for my proposes.

Just found this site n like it for Solar. Not sure about it, for Wind yet ?

Does anyone know of that kind of smallish wind turbines ?
The ones I've seem are mostly around 4'+ in diameter.

Thx !

You got it backwards.
Install 100w solar before you tinker with wind.

 

[terrango]

I did it the other way.
Sirby, to be honest a small turbine does work if your not requiring a lot of performance from it. I have 2 6V batteries hooked up to my turbine and there was enough to keep it charged even in winter at -30C. All I was running off my batteries (200 AH each) were lights and 6 cameras. Now my turbine has obstacles in its path, this was intentional as last year when I put my turbine up, I was really only testing my mount to see if it would stand up to the harsh winter. Well its still standing! My 400W turbine runs almost every day even with trees in the way. Yes I have plans to increase the mast from 27 ft to 40 ft but that is next years project as I wanted to increase the turbine size (shortage of supplies currently). I am hoping to test a 2 KW turbine for a year and see how it works. If it performs good then ill be adding more in the future.

If you just need a small unit to run cameras, a small turbine will work fine as long as you have wind in your area.
If you have lots of sun, i would suggest adding a small solar panel to work with your turbine as the wind is not there everyday.
I will be posting my turbine setup in a new thread this month with photos, costs and results after 8 months of use.

Hope that helps.

 

[Forbisher]

Did you read this?

The Truth About Small Wind Turbines – Solacity Inc.

Installing a small wind turbine? Get the information you need for an informed decision: The good and the bad, just the literal truth to help you choose.

www.solacity.com

Wind Resources

Rule 1: The power rating of a wind turbine has NOTHING to do with the amount of power you'll get. The amount of power you get depends on the size and efficiency of your wind turbine, and your wind. The power rating of a wind turbine is just its...

diysolarforum.com

Did you find a, super active, Wind Generator site / forum ?

I want to tinker with a super small scale wind generation setup.
One with a generator radius of 24"-36" (max) and 100-300 watts (max), of generating power ?

I know, the smaller the blades, the less power you get.

I live in an urban / suburban, residential area n want to try wind before adding a 100 watt solar setup.

No heavy duty devices to draw from the setup. Just 2 5v security camera's, at best.

So a 4' + diameter turbine is a bit much, for my proposes.

Just found this site n like it for Solar. Not sure about it, for Wind yet ?

Does anyone know of that kind of smallish wind turbines ?
The ones I've seem are mostly around 4'+ in diameter.

Thx !

 

[pollenface]

I made a turbine with 2x small 6v dc motors and it spun nearly all day with fans made from corflute (for sale sign stuff). I ran it through a step up to 30v and into a cheap pwm solar reg. It worked although didnt make much power. I always fantasize about having 10 or 20 all together in series.

 

[chrisski]

Did you find a, super active, Wind Generator site / forum ?

I did not find a super active wind turbine site. I thought it was this post, but someone had recommended some sites, but couldn’t find the particular post with the links, but they were not nearly as active as this site.

I have also cut back on the amount I’m looking for wind. The surges of wind I mentioned in my area may just be seasonal Or extremely local. I was seeing gusts that would nightly shake my trailer at the edge of the mountains and plains, but have been back to the area in March and April, and the wind was much calmer. I wanted to produce 150 wh to 250 wh a day off a portable system, but I can’t find anything to make this portable. For a cabin fairly easy, but not something for me to set up for a three or four days and take down for a month and repeat the process.

I do not really like the “you have to try it to find out if it works” thinking. That may work in congress where you have to pass a law to see what’s in it, but they’re not spending their money or time, but if I were to buy a 400 watt turbine, that is my money and Time. Those who have run a windmill by hooking a turbine to the back of their parked pickup are just not willing to share results. Usually that’s because those results are really lackluster or time wasted.

For now, the only realistic quality of life improvement I can make to my system is adding solar powered air conditioning, but every idea I come up with to provide the 20 amp 120 VAC Air Conditioner power, which is probably 1100 watts continuous, comes up with way too many solar panels to make it portable. I come up with a minimum of 3000 watt of panels to run one unit. With the little amount I’ve seen enough wind blowing, that is not enough power to make a difference.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

The wind turbine is not constant
100W of solar is more dependable by what you’re describing for local conditions.

It’s not ‘proper’ but you can put the panel nearly vertical to mitigate snow and bird issues. Yes, somewhat reduced output but likely far over your stated needs will be produced most days.

 

[den2222]

If you want the wind turbine to provide energy and work for a long time, you need a large diameter turbine and, of course, with variable pitch. For example like this "Flamingo Aero".

 

[markansas]

I've gone through two 1kw wind turbines (African wind power and a e300 Kestrel) and both have failed after only 2-3 years of use. At this point in time I am wondering if it makes sense for any land based installation to spend money on a mechanical system that is inherently less reliable then a passive system such as photovoltaics. The price for slight increase in number of panels + battery storage seems like would outweigh the hassle of any wind turbine. I assume there must be special cases but otherwise does it make any sense now-a-days?

 

[markansas]

I've gone through two 1kw wind turbines (African wind power and a e300 Kestrel) and both have failed after only 2-3 years of use. At this point in time I am wondering if it makes sense for any land based installation to spend money on a mechanical system that is inherently less reliable then a passive system such as photovoltaics. The price for slight increase in number of panels + battery storage seems like would outweigh the hassle of any wind turbine. I assume there must be special cases but otherwise does it make any sense now-a-days?

it will keep the battery topped off at nite. bad days. just got in my istabreeze. it should start working at 3.5 miles per hour. and it is well built. or i shall see.. i am looking for the real deal tho . Jacobs windmill .

 

[brandnewb]

Total Cheap and Absolute Crap!

Thanks for wasting my time watching this video which you must not have watched because he says it made no power in 25mph winds.

I ask people pitching in on my threads to not reference unproven stuff as I am also on a mission to get a working wind turbine that actually does something at low rpm (60-120).

Regarding that they break and need maintenance my idea was to DIY it so I know how to fix it when it breaks and over time make it more sturdy.

I really believe that wind should not be neglected (edit: discarded) just yet. I for one will give it a fair try the DIY way

 

[Messier11]

A big caveat that I am not an expert on wind turbines.

But a few thoughts. Reading up on smaller wind turbines it’s obvious that (a) quality is important and (b) no system is better than it’s weakest link, and most require frequent attention. With smaller turbines you simply have no marginals, and people with top electric skills can manage to get them to work with perfect settings.

One big challenge is of course that the wind turbine must [sic] be able to rotate, ie you cannot have any set cables from the generator to your system.

But this is what has made me start to think, — must — a wind turbine really be able to rotate? Generators are cheaply available and of great quality. Wings? They aren’t that costly either. What is cheaper, to build four stationary wind turbines that cannot rotate or one that can?

This is a wind flower for my off grid cabin in the archipelago in North of Sweden. Each line is 5%. In other words, the wind comes from straight south or south west almost 40% of the time.


I would imagine that a stationary horizontal wind turbine that cannot rotate would (a) have significantly higher effectivity, (b) would be much more durable and (c) would be significantly cheaper to produce. In addition, within a real estate they can be placed at the optimal location for its wind direction so to speak. Ie the location must not be optimized for 360’ wind. At my cabin, I have a more narrow corridor for southern winds that isn’t optimal for northern winds and vice versa.

What is you guys thought on this? Have you seen anyone experiment with non-rotating horizontal wind turbines?

 

[Hedges]

One big challenge is of course that the wind turbine must [sic] be able to rotate, ie you cannot have any set cables from the generator to your system.

You could, if you limited rotation, not just free spinning according to wind on its tail.
It could motor around to unwind when needed.

But I think slip rings is common.

Yet another implementation would be inductive coupling (which comes for free with VAWT)

 

[curiouscarbon]

Sorry, I am lazy and have poor grammar.

no worries! only hoping to enhance your message ?

 

[Messier11]

You could, if you limited rotation, not just free spinning according to wind on its tail.
It could motor around to unwind when needed.

But I think slip rings is common.

Yet another implementation would be inductive coupling (which comes for free with VAWT)

Yeah, but do they really need to be able to rotate -- if making them rotatable is what make them so technically complicated and give them so low effectiveness? Sweden is full of these all over the country side that can't rotate, but mostly the wind is coming from the same direction so its no major issue.


Like if you are producing electrics on grid to make a profit, of course, its a no brainer that you must have a mill that can produce electricity no matter which direction it blows from. But in an off-grid cabin? All power helps if you have a bit of a buffert in the battery solution.

But it all depends on how big gains you would make with a stationary non-rotatable wind turbine?

How far would you get by just hooking a generator to one of these and remodelling it a little bit? Seems like you could make a stationary non rotateable wind turbine super durable if it fundamentally is constructed somewhat like this. Also seems like large broken down industry fans should be able to find fairly cheap.