So this happened today

[upnorthandpersonal]

The one thing in this whole situation that worries me is the number of people not just here in our forum, but across the internet, that are giving newbies the false sense of security that "LifePo4 cells are 100% safe". First of all, there's no such thing as "100% safe". Drop a 16S pack on your head from 50 ft., lol. But secondly, the truth is that LifePo4 cells are "safer" and that's not the same thing as safe, especially in the DIY battery building realm. Maybe a few of these 'fire situations' would at the very least scare someone into taking a 2nd look at their grand plan, because in the Golf cart world, as an example, I'm seeing folks almost daily making statements like these; "So instead of buying new batteries for my cart, I've decided to build my own lithium set up. Is this AC clamp meter a good choice" to which someone answers "yes", lol. Not that we don't exist to promote the DIY world, but we all need to make sure we're supporting safety first as an ideology. Someone says, "My lifepo4 battery caught on fire" and there's 30 people who quickly jump in and say, "wasn't the cells fault...your cat did it".

So we just started this initiative:

DIY Battery Handbook Initiative

Considering the amount of users this site is seeing and the amount of people that are embarking on building their own battery (and the repeating issues we see), we thought it would be a good idea to compose a clear and concise recommended (best practices) document. This document would explicitly...

diysolarforum.com

Hopefully we can get to a basic set of rules and best practices that can at least alleviate some of the basic issues newbies face.

 

[Supervstech]

I’ve been to sell windows needing replacement from being next door to houses that burned this summer.
What I learned from my inquiries and the determined origin of the fires? Don’t leave your dewalt, ryobi, Milwaukee- whatever brand- cordless tools with the battery charger plugged in and charging/floating. Laptops and phones less of a concern but all these are little. A huge battery bank can definitely make a shower of sparks for quite some time.

Yup... if people would read their manuals, it
Is stated, charge for use, do not store charging...
But we are talking about lifepo4 here, not nmc...

 

[12VoltInstalls]

The dewalt-caused fire was “lithium” batteries fwiw, though I don’t think lfp

 

[Hedges]

Yup... if people would read their manuals, it
Is stated, charge for use, do not store charging...

That should be handled by firmware, not people.
Or for an electromechanical retrofit (easier than software), use a spring-would mechanical timer.

 

[A.Justice]

.... Don’t leave your dewalt, ryobi, Milwaukee- whatever brand- cordless tools with the battery charger plugged in and charging/floating...

My father-in-law leaves his batteries plugged in for YEARS. I've tried to tell him that it's only a matter of time until one of them catches fire. He buys a different brand of power tool every time he needs one and leaves it plugged into the charger 24 hours a day. I've even tried unplugging them when he's not there, but he plugs them back in every time he goes into the garage. There's people out there that don't listen to anything that you tell them.

People like him are the reason that commercially-bought batteries have to be completely idiot proof. "Unplug cells after charging" and "do not overcharge" are absolutely meaningless warnings because a lot of people won't heed them. "Why did the cells light on fire?" "Because my charger broke and I stuck a laptop charger into the DC output port". Fu*k.

People like to complain about proprietary plugs and cords, but I totally understand the reason; a proprietary plug only goes where it's supposed to go, some idiot couldn't plug a 2.1 mm barrel plug into anything that takes it. Standardized plugs aren't idiot proof, proprietary ones can be.

My F-I-L has a CPAP machine, and asked me if I could build him a backup for it. I absolutely could, but I suggested that he buy one from a store. I'm not going to be held liable when he charges them 24 hours a day 7 days a week at 14.6 volts, and then tries to backfeed his breaker panel with a suicide cord and kills a lineman. I wasn't trying to be an as*hole, but a lot of people shouldn't be using home built lithium batteries without more research.

I would be terrified to be a "home use" battery designer, people are fu*king idiots.

Thanks for listening to my rant!

 

[mrzed001]

My F-I-L has a CPAP machine, and asked me if I could build him a backup for it. I absolutely could, but I suggested that he buy one from a store. I'm not going to be held liable when he charges them 24 hours a day 7 days a week at 14.6 volts, and then tries to backfeed his breaker panel with a 500w suicide cord and kills a lineman. I wasn't trying to be an as*hole, but a lot of people shouldn't be using home built lithium batteries without more research.

Side note:
I throw out 3 APC Online UPS on the next day when one (not a year old 1500VA unit) died in the middle of the night.
Only my mother's CPAP machine (set to almost max, full face mask) was connected to it.
A little blackout (like a 1 sec, happens here sometimes) came and that very expensive piece of junk just shut down without a beep.
Luckily, just the UPS was injured ....
This was the 2nd APC UPS that did this. First was in the service, battery replaced ... rarely did it again.
So, do not thrust the one from the store. They are just jokes.

 

[A.Justice]

Side note:
I throw out 3 APC Online UPS on the next day when one (not a year old 1500VA unit) died in the middle of the night.
Only my mother's CPAP machine (set to almost max, full face mask) was connected to it.
A little blackout (like a 1 sec, happens here sometimes) came and that very expensive piece of junk just shut down without a beep.
Luckily, just the UPS was injured ....
This was the 2nd APC UPS that did this. First was in the service, battery replaced ... rarely did it again.
So, do not thrust the one from the store. They are just jokes.

I have a few commercially made uninterruptible power supply units as well. I had to add a fan to my TripLite that backs up my computer, the transformer was heating up to over 130°, with only a 30% or so load. I can't believe it didn't come with a fan. However, it works, and keeps my computer on through frequent brownouts.

I bought a used APC unit off of eBay, it fried my Kill-a-watt in seconds, and my multimeter was getting a 250+ hz reading. It took about 5 minutes for it to fry a DC power brick for a router. I will NEVER buy an APC unit again, they're horribly designed, have the same overheating problems as TrippLite, and don't put out any sort of stable power.

These guys just came in the mail today, they were less than $20 for two.
My plan is to use a float charger, SLA battery, and 12v DC regulator to make a backup system for my 12v DC security cameras and router.

A UPS takes AC, turns it into DC for the battery, turns it back to AC again, then the wall-wart turns that back to 12v DC for the cameras and router. That's a lot of conversions and loss. It seems much more simple to convert AC to DC one time, and then work with the DC current "downstream".

 

[toms]

The crate says "Lithium-Ion". The Storage Power Solutions website says they make LiFePO4. I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but if those are really Lithium Ion then that's not good.

How is it possible that so many people on this forum don’t recognise that LiFePO4 is a lithium ion chemistry.

Sure it is one of the safer ones, but the way people post is like it’s not a lithium ion chemistry at all.

 

[plaidcabin]

Of course, once we get more factual details from the owner, or his/her representative who seems to be the person sharing.

It likely gets lost in the pages, but for those that have missed it:

the missing bus bars while charging were most likely the cause of the fire.

He still has plenty more of the cells and will be working much more carefully going forward. Burning down his trailer certainly devastated him, and he lost everything (with no insurance) - won't be making a stupid mistake like that again. No more rushing when working on batteries, and investing in bms for his next system.

 

[TSouthernSr]

Meanwhile, the fire was caused by a cat that knocked over a kerosene lamp. Way too much speculation in this thread. (my cat lamp thing is speculation also) This thread is a prime example of why our legal system frightens me, the whole judged by a jury of your peers. Three pictures are provided and tons of people know exactly what caused the fire. :/

 

[eXodus]

Humidity? Pipes near the battery, MPPT, inverter? Possible water, steam or condensation in the area?

One of the reasons I decided against a DIY battery in sunny and humid Florida - that I'm worry about corrosion.

Many (most?) people maybe just should not try. I don't really believe we can cover everything that someone needs to know in a FAQ or DIY guide or book or anything.

very much agree on that statement. I used to be a electrical engineer, I worked in battery research for years in the late 2000s. We burned down many

I'm not DIYing my batterie packs - there are way to many long - term mechanical properties I can't predict. DIY solar - and wiring house etc. No problem, but batteries are another beast.

Building a small bank as a science project OK - but large banks for daily use in a human occupied building?

 

[12VoltInstalls]

:/

You are undecided about that?!

 

[A.Justice]

Meanwhile, the fire was caused by a cat that knocked over a kerosene lamp. Way too much speculation in this thread. (my cat lamp thing is speculation also) This thread is a prime example of why our legal system frightens me, the whole judged by a jury of your peers. Three pictures are provided and tons of people know exactly what caused the fire. :/

I would choose diysolarforum members for my jury over randos from the street any day. The regulars on here are WAY MORE logical than your average Joe.

 

[Hedges]

Jury questionnaire:

1) Have you every hear of "LiFePO4"?
2) If you answered "yes" to question #1, please explain.


The one time I got selected as far as going to courthouse,

1) Have you every hear of DNA testing?
2) If you answered "yes" to question #1, please explain.

My answer: "It is only direct-marketed to the general public on prime-time TV"

(Also, "My sister performs gene splicing and breeds frankenmice for fun and profit.")

No, I was not selected.

 

[TOU47]

All those who believe in telekinesis please raise my hand if you think I should DYI my own battery.
Consensus is unanimous, I'll buy a battery

?
Oh my gosh...I really did LOL...too funny! ?