Software based Breaker Panels/ Critical load Panels ?

[illium]

Designing a system currently and I have seen Smart panels and variants popping up all over the place. Span, Schneider, Sol-Ark etc.. I see the product claims of these panels being convenience, reducing install costs, and complexity among other things. I am not an engineer or electrician, but my questions are these: Reliability of the software controls themselves. Does it truly reduce costs at install. What would you see as the pros/cons of this newer tech vs standard breakers and load centers. I would appericate members feedback

 

[FilterGuy]

Disclaimer: I have no experience with any of the smart load panels

I have been intrigued by these panels and have been following them.... but I would not use one at this time.

• Reliability:
  By definition, the smart panel is adding a lot of complex power circuitry into the system, therefore they are adding a significant number of possible points of failure. That is not saying they fail often... I am just saying it increases the possibility. Furthermore, these products have not been on the market very long so they do not have a track record.
• Safety:
  What is the safety record of these? With power electronics, you have to worry about something burning up in a big way if it fails. I am not saying they are not safe, but I would wait a while to see what the track record is.
• Repair
  If there is a failure in them, what is the fix? Even if it is in warranty, how hard is it to repair? Do you have to swap out the whole dang thing? Can components be swapped? If it is not in warranty, how expensive are the parts (Have you ever had to pay for a new computer board for an appliance or car.... typically it is a few hundred dollars for a little board.
• Functionality:
  Is it something I really need? Sure, it looks like it would be cool to be able to have the kind of control and data, but that is not a priority to me. If my system requires that level of control and data to operate it on a day-to-day basis, it is too complicated. Therefore the only value is in some kind of special circumstance such as a power outage. In those situations, I am willing to live with the decisions made when installing a 'dumb' critical loads panel.
• Cost:
  What can I say.... these things are pretty dang expensive.

So.... at least for now, the smart panels are not for me.

The

 

[Ampster]

The big electric loads I want to manage are my EV charging, oven, dryer and water heater. In the future an AC/heat pump is going to be added. Some of those are already variable loads and and the challenge for me if finding a communications protocol that can communicate with those devices and vary the loads appropriately.

 

[illium]

Filter guy you have 95% of the cons and I agree with you 100%. Ampster nails it for the pros as I see it. All electric home no ev but ground source heat pump, water heating, dryer, oven with a old 1hp well pump 220v (left over from a pump and dump geotherm. Approx 12,000kwh per yr. with the lions share in winter (michigan). Elec. Co. has instituted TOU which you could see coming wherever you live. Hopefully will Be air sealing attic this fall. If I am very lucky it might bring usage down to 11000kwh yearly. Which is the last of the low hanging fruit for my household. well pump will not be replaced until it dies, dryer still functions also(condensing dryer?). Meeting demand will mean 2nd inverter and larger battery bank. Also this is not totally off grid just looking to shave as much as I can off bill with approx 2-3 days of minimal backup power for outages.

 

[FilterGuy]

Filter guy you have 95% of the cons and I agree with you 100%. Ampster nails it for the pros as I see it. All electric home no ev but ground source heat pump, water heating, dryer, oven with a old 1hp well pump 220v (left over from a pump and dump geotherm. Approx 12,000kwh per yr. with the lions share in winter (michigan). Elec. Co. has instituted TOU which you could see coming wherever you live. Hopefully will Be air sealing attic this fall. If I am very lucky it might bring usage down to 11000kwh yearly. Which is the last of the low hanging fruit for my household. well pump will not be replaced until it dies, dryer still functions also(condensing dryer?). Meeting demand will mean 2nd inverter and larger battery bank. Also this is not totally off grid just looking to shave as much as I can off bill with approx 2-3 days of minimal backup power for outages.

If you are looking for data on usage.... one of the whole-house power monitors might be a good alternative to a smart panel. These won't let you control the circuits or create virtual critical load panels.... but they can provide a lot of the usage data. without all of the complexity of a smart panel.

 

[FilterGuy]

One more issue for me: Retrofitting my system to use this will be a major PITA. I would probably be a bit more intrigued for new construction or I was changing out the main panel for some other reason.

 

[illium]

At the moment I don't have a system I'm just designing it. The energy monitoring would be a nifty tool, but not necessary. I see the potential advantages of a smart panel for me would be in winter. With 5 220v loads little sun and lots of clouds the inrush surge of the motors would force me to have 2 inverters and a larger battery bank if I was using standard critical loads panel. If I could do the same with 1 inverter it would pay for itself. There wouldn't be a retrofit (but i see your point) for me. I keep coming back to reliability and just using 2 inverters and loads panel vs 1 inverter and smart loads. Assuming it could indeed accommodate that amount of load

 

[FilterGuy]

At the moment I don't have a system I'm just designing it. The energy monitoring would be a nifty tool, but not necessary. I see the potential advantages of a smart panel for me would be in winter. With 5 220v loads little sun and lots of clouds the inrush surge of the motors would force me to have 2 inverters and a larger battery bank if I was using standard critical loads panel. If I could do the same with 1 inverter it would pay for itself. There wouldn't be a retrofit (but i see your point) for me. I keep coming back to reliability and just using 2 inverters and loads panel vs 1 inverter and smart loads. Assuming it could indeed accommodate that amount of load

How would the smart panel solve the inrush problem.... I seem to have missed something.

 

[Ampster]

How would the smart panel solve the inrush problem.... I seem to have missed something.

My take on that is it would only solve the inrush problem of two loads starting at the same time. That only solves the issue if one inverter can handle the inrush of one motor. Of course a soft start or a timer mechanism are other workarounds.

 

[FilterGuy]

My take on that is it would only solve the inrush problem of two loads starting at the same time.

Interesting. I had not heard they could do that. Any idea how it does that?

 

[Ampster]

Any idea how it does that?

I assume it would be capable of simple relay logic. For example; If load A goes on trigger delay timer on load B.

 

[illium]

The Span loadcenter was the eye catcher for me. Being able to move loads to and from a virtual critical loads panel has a lot of appeal. For example taking the fridge and freezer off to run the well pump long enough to fill the bladder while not exceeding inverters capacity, then moving them back. I understand ampsters caution wholeheartedly. along with software, data harvesting, maleware, etc. I do see hope though, at least they are not just dealing with one company to interface with them. As far as becoming a early adopter. I'll be sitting on the fence with ampster. Was just looking for other feedback. Thanks