Sol-Ark 15K All in One Inverter Released.

[robby]

If I have to update in 10 years I'm gonna be pissed lol. Hopefully our technology just gets more efficient and my system will be overkill and last for atleast 20 years, preferably 30. I want it to be my children's problem haha

My system should pay for itself in 5 years maybe a lot less if energy prices keep going up. By time I hit the 10 year mark I am pretty sure I will be open to a new Inverter if it has some kind of really good features.

One item that I can see becoming popular in the next 5 years is some sort of Solar Inverter Comm Protocol that works with almost every new appliance. I am thinking that as Solar and EV's become more common everything that consumes a good deal of power will be able to talk to the Inverter and the Inverter can make decisions on what loads it needs to throttle based on your priority setting and the remaining SOC. Basically no need for a smart loads panel but instead an even more targeted way of dealing with power savings by talking directly to the Devices and letting them know what they should do.

A neat feature would be things like throttling ability for HVAC Inverter units that allow available power to be stretched even if the comfort level drops a bit in order to make everything important last until the Sun is up. Your AC might move from a set temp of 75 Deg to 79 Deg in order to save power. A Fridge might power down for 2 hours and then power back up, with just enough rise in temp to keep food from going bad.
The Dryer will wait for good PV power before starting up and will pause the heating element if PV drops for X amount of minutes and then resume again when the clouds pass by.

I know they use something similar to this in thermostats that the some power companies put into peoples house in order to deal with Heavy demand on the grid.

 

[chess-equality]

My system should pay for itself in 5 years maybe a lot less if energy prices keep going up. By time I hit the 10 year mark I am pretty sure I will be open to a new Inverter if it has some kind of really good features.

One item that I can see becoming popular in the next 5 years is some sort of Solar Inverter Comm Protocol that works with almost every new appliance. I am thinking that as Solar and EV's become more common everything that consumes a good deal of power will be able to talk to the Inverter and the Inverter can make decisions on what loads it needs to shutdown based on your priority setting and the remaining SOC. Basically no need for a smart loads panel but instead an even more targeted way of dealing with power savings by talking back to the Device and letting it know what it should do.

A neat feature would be things like throttling ability for HVAC Inverter units that allow available power to be stretched even if the comfort level drops a bit in order to make everything important last until the Sun is up. Your AC might move from a set temp of 75 Deg to 79 Deg in order to save power. A Fridge might power down for 2 hours and then power back up, with just enough rise in temp to keep food from going bad.
The Dryer will wait for good PV power before starting up and will pause the heating element if PV drops for X amount of minutes and then resume again when the clouds pass by.

I know they use something similar to this in thermostats that the power companies put into some peoples house to deal with Heavy demand on the grid.

Yes it's getting there.

It's gonna take the path of computers such as standardization where you can just choose the options, pay, and it will be assembled for you.

1. What DC voltage do you want? a. 12v b. 24v c. 48v d. 1000v (call for availability)
2. Battery? a. 100Ah (__ how many) b. 200Ah (__ how many) c. 300Ah (__ how many) d. ARC REACTOR (what's this?) (only 1 per customer)
3. Do you want to parallel? a. Yes (__ how many) b. No
4. Do you want to add EMP? a. Yes (25% discount until supplies last) b. No
5. Do you want to add support? a. 1 year b. 2 years c. None (I'm pro)

 

[Hedges]

One item that I can see becoming popular in the next 5 years is some sort of Solar Inverter Comm Protocol that works with almost every new appliance. I am thinking that as Solar and EV's become more common everything that consumes a good deal of power will be able to talk to the Inverter and the Inverter can make decisions on what loads it needs to throttle based on your priority setting and the remaining SOC. Basically no need for a smart loads panel but instead an even more targeted way of dealing with power savings by talking directly to the Devices and letting them know what they should do.

That can be partly supported by frequency shift of battery inverters controlling AC coupled PV. When they want less power they raise the frequency.
A load that observes frequency increasing to start consuming more, before frequency reaches the point where PV production starts to be curtailed.
This could cool the house, pump water, or charge EV but only with surplus power; it wouldn't also consume power stored in battery to maintain comfort or achieve your commute range requirement.

Battery knows SoC and SCC knows PV curtailment. Inverter, if aware of battery SoC and charge current needs, could use frequency decrease as well as increase to request less/more consumption and if necessary curtailment.

A battery SoC monitor (or box communicating/evesdropping on BMS data link) could implement the control algorithm, allowing cooling and other functions while maintaining a desired amount of reserve stored watt-hours.

Internet/WiFi connectivity would be another way, since some appliances already have that.

 

[robby]

That can be partly supported by frequency shift of battery inverters controlling AC coupled PV. When they want less power they raise the frequency.
A load that observes frequency increasing to start consuming more, before frequency reaches the point where PV production starts to be curtailed.
This could cool the house, pump water, or charge EV but only with surplus power; it wouldn't also consume power stored in battery to maintain comfort or achieve your commute range requirement.

Battery knows SoC and SCC knows PV curtailment. Inverter, if aware of battery SoC and charge current needs, could use frequency decrease as well as increase to request less/more consumption and if necessary curtailment.

A battery SoC monitor (or box communicating/evesdropping on BMS data link) could implement the control algorithm, allowing cooling and other functions while maintaining a desired amount of reserve stored watt-hours.

Internet/WiFi connectivity would be another way, since some appliances already have that.

I am really thinking more about BPL implemented with a Standard protocol for Solar Inverters.
I want much more control and two way communication between the devices and the Inverter.
For example a Dryer trying to be shutdown but knowing that the humidity inside is almost at shutdown point can ask the inverter if it can hold another two minutes before shutting off. The Inverter can pool it's devices and see if any equivalent loads can be suspended for 2 minutes and if so give the dryer the command to go ahead and finish the load, if not kill it.

With Well Pumps they can request to start up and the Inverter will suspend most of the HVAC compressors and heating and other high loads, everything it needs to in order to facilitate the known startup current for 30 seconds. Then send the pump an OK to start command and let her rip. After a few seconds it resume all the devices without the home owner even realizing this happened.

I am looking for True Micro management, with all major devices reporting the current they are consuming and what they will be consuming if they change to a different setting. An Inverter that is watching all of this and constantly calculating out how to make it all work as seamlessly as possible.

 

[Hedges]

I think more load management/integration will allow better utilization.
But I dread all inverter and appliance manufacturers pushing daily updates like M*cr*s*ft as they never get it right, especially interacting together.
I'd rather a separate manager box, that could be switched off if misbehaving, allowing reversion to user control.
Working within my inverter's features, I plan to enable A/C and dryer & water heater elements when > 80% SoC using a relay.
Load adjustment to frequency response will need extra control hardware, but could make operation very clean.

 

[niktak11]

I installed the 600A CTs on my incoming 400a service conductors today. Those CTs seem unnecessarily massive. I probably could have fit 4 conductors per CT if I wanted.

 

[Lt.Dan]

Does anybody know if there are any other features new to the 15k compared to the 12k other than the rated output?

 

[Wet1]

Does anybody know if there are any other features new to the 15k compared to the 12k other than the rated output?

The third MPPT is significant, as is the 200A pass through which can greatly ease install and possibly eliminate the need for a critical loads panel.

 

[Lt.Dan]

The third MPPT is significant, as is the 200A pass through which can greatly ease install and possibly eliminate the need for a critical loads panel.

Im at an impasse because of the restrictions of how I have to install the inverter. This is basically my best option right now:




So because of this, I cannot fully utilize the 200a bypass, and I can't even feed everything in my home if power goes out. The sub-panel does have all the breakers for all the lights and receptacles in the home. The only thing I would want to move from the main breaker panel to the sub panel is the refrigerator (dunno why its not in the sub panel already, the refrigerator is less than 20 feet away from the sub panel, but its about 80 feet from the main panel?).

So because of this, I'm thinking about going with the 12k. But is it worth it to just spend the extra ~$1300 and get the 15k?

EDIT: I'm also in California, where I'm going to most likely have to wait until August (more than likely even later than that) to even get permits approved to install it. Whereas the 12k I can get installed right now.

 

[Hedges]

Is it possible to insert SolArk between utility meter and 200A main breaker of main panel?
Can you do a line-side tap (between meter and 200A main breaker), feed that into a fused disconnect?

If not, can you put an interlocked "generator" breaker adjacent to 200A main breaker? Maybe that can be up to 125A.
In that case, another 125A breaker in main panel feeds SolArk, which feeds sub-panel. In case of a power failure, turn off 125A breaker feeding SolArk, and switch the interlock (200A main off, 125A "generator" on.) SolArk now powers the house. (One catch, there is nothing except your neighbor's lights to indicate when grid comes back on.

Also, put an interlocked "generator" breaker in sub-panel. That way if SolArk fails you can just flip the interlock to restore power.

I've done both of these interlocks, and then did the line-side tap (easy in my case because meter box had its own 200A breaker.)

Another option: rename "main breaker panel" to "non-protected loads panel", use it only for excessive loads like electric furnace. Install a "protected loads panel" and transfer all non-excessive loads to it.

It would be convenient to have a way to turn off larger loads if battery SoC gets too low - e.g. only run A/C when there is enough power, keep refrigerator running rather than having all power go out.

 

[Lt.Dan]

Is it possible to insert SolArk between utility meter and 200A main breaker of main panel?
Can you do a line-side tap (between meter and 200A main breaker), feed that into a fused disconnect?

My solar installer said its not acceptable in my location because I have a Meter/Main breaker panel combo unit, and there is no way to get in-between the meter and breaker panel. Even if we did, the electricity supplier wouldn't allow it.

If not, can you put an interlocked "generator" breaker adjacent to 200A main breaker? Maybe that can be up to 125A.
In that case, another 125A breaker in main panel feeds SolArk, which feeds sub-panel. In case of a power failure, turn off 125A breaker feeding SolArk, and switch the interlock (200A main off, 125A "generator" on.) SolArk now powers the house. (One catch, there is nothing except your neighbor's lights to indicate when grid comes back on.

I will bring this up to my installer.

Also, put an interlocked "generator" breaker in sub-panel. That way if SolArk fails you can just flip the interlock to restore power.

The sol-ark, from what I understand, has a manual "bypass" that is capable of doing exactly this. I might be wrong though. Can anybody clarify?

I've done both of these interlocks, and then did the line-side tap (easy in my case because meter box had its own 200A breaker.)

Another option: rename "main breaker panel" to "non-protected loads panel", use it only for excessive loads like electric furnace. Install a "protected loads panel" and transfer all non-excessive loads to it.

The installer did have this idea when we were talking yesterday, but it involves running a lot of wires across the house and installing a new "protected loads panel" as you call it.

It would be convenient to have a way to turn off larger loads if battery SoC gets too low - e.g. only run A/C when there is enough power, keep refrigerator running rather than having all power go out.

The installer and I were also discussing the viability and necessity of backing up most, if not all, of the circuits in the house. The grid here has always been very stable, rarely shuts down, and even if it is down, its usually only for about an hour. I think based on cost I can live with only having the existing sub-panel (that is in the garage) back-up powered. If I get a wild hair up my ass later, I can start moving loads from the main-panel, to the sub-panel. I guess the sub-panel could now be considered a critical-loads panel.

 

[Lt.Dan]

This is a diagram out of the 12k Manual, but its almost exactly what I am planning on doing. Minus the generator.

My dilemma is if I use a 12k or 15k though.

 

[Hedges]

The sol-ark, from what I understand, has a manual "bypass" that is capable of doing exactly this. I might be wrong though. Can anybody clarify?

That may be fine if it can be serviced in place.
For about $100 (interlock plus breaker, labor and bypass wires not included), the SolArk could also be removed without having to reconnect wires for sub-panel.

The installer did have this idea when we were talking yesterday, but it involves running a lot of wires across the house and installing a new "protected loads panel" as you call it.

Maybe a couple of the circuits are "critical". Can they be extended to the garage panel?
If not, a sub panel adjacent to the SolArk and main panel could get critical loads.
It's all pretty economical if you can do it yourself. Maybe not too bad as one more task while electrician is there. If he has things opened up to wire SolArk into main panel, could be the time to add a sub-panel.

A second breaker panel (maybe on inside wall) with large 2" straight conduit to main panel would let you stuff wires later. (turn off main breaker when shoving wires, in case the ends come in contact.) Make that two, 2" conduit, while you're at it. My conduit get overstuffed.

There are also panels with a row of breakers (1 pole and 2 pole) and rocker transfer switch per circuit.

The installer and I were also discussing the viability and necessity of backing up most, if not all, of the circuits in the house. The grid here has always been very stable, rarely shuts down, and even if it is down, its usually only for about an hour. I think based on cost I can live with only having the existing sub-panel (that is in the garage) back-up powered. If I get a wild hair up my ass later, I can start moving loads from the main-panel, to the sub-panel. I guess the sub-panel could now be considered a critical-loads panel.

 

[Bits-N-Nibbles]

Im at an impasse because of the restrictions of how I have to install the inverter. This is basically my best option right now:


View attachment 100733

So because of this, I cannot fully utilize the 200a bypass, and I can't even feed everything in my home if power goes out. The sub-panel does have all the breakers for all the lights and receptacles in the home. The only thing I would want to move from the main breaker panel to the sub panel is the refrigerator (dunno why its not in the sub panel already, the refrigerator is less than 20 feet away from the sub panel, but its about 80 feet from the main panel?).

So because of this, I'm thinking about going with the 12k. But is it worth it to just spend the extra ~$1300 and get the 15k?

EDIT: I'm also in California, where I'm going to most likely have to wait until August (more than likely even later than that) to even get permits approved to install it. Whereas the 12k I can get installed right now.

I'm in the same exact boat. I just got my 15K delivered. My subpanel in the garage is about 120ft from the main panel outside, protected by 100A breaker. I am hoping to cover 100% of my loads with the 15K. I was assuming I could just derate my main breaker down to 175A, and feed the main panel from the subpanel, with the Sol-Ark feeding a breaker in the subpanel. Was this too naive of me? My house never gets near 12KW draw (most I see is around 8.5KW when electric stove, electric dryer, and septic pump are all on at the same time), so the 62.5A max (with Solar) on the Sol-Ark should be enough. Is what I'm describing possible, or can I not power the main panel from a Sol-Ark sitting on the sub-panel?

 

[Hedges]

Is the issue 120% rule, backfed PV breaker (which feeds SolArk) plus main breaker can't exceed 100% of breaker panel rating?

With a mix of breaker ratings you can reach some level of grid power getting to sub panel through SolArk.
But best setup is a line-side tap from behind main breaker going through fused disconnect to SolArk. Then no breakers have to be downsized.

 

[Bits-N-Nibbles]

Is the issue 120% rule, backfed PV breaker (which feeds SolArk) plus main breaker can't exceed 100% of breaker panel rating?

With a mix of breaker ratings you can reach some level of grid power getting to sub panel through SolArk.
But best setup is a line-side tap from behind main breaker going through fused disconnect to SolArk. Then no breakers have to be downsized.

Yeah, from everything I've been reading a line-side tap would be ideal. However, I'm in the middle of woods, and the 120ft of trenching would be uhhhh, "challenging" to say the least. The PV array will be right next to the garage, so I figured the Sol-Ark can go in there next to the subpanel and batteries for shortest run possible. Is there any limit to length of run to inverter if doing a line-side tap?

 

[Lt.Dan]

Maybe a couple of the circuits are "critical". Can they be extended to the garage panel?

Yes, its funny because most of the loads in the main panel are wayy closer to the garage sub-panel, which makes it easy to just pull them from the main panel and reroute to the garage sub-panel. Its probably what I'll end up doing in the future.

Is the issue 120% rule, backfed PV breaker (which feeds SolArk) plus main breaker can't exceed 100% of breaker panel rating?

With a mix of breaker ratings you can reach some level of grid power getting to sub panel through SolArk.
But best setup is a line-side tap from behind main breaker going through fused disconnect to SolArk. Then no breakers have to be downsized.

Line-side taps are apparently not allowed here.

Again, since we have meter/breaker panel combo's, the wiring between the meter and 200a main breaker is not accessible, so the electric company would have to come out to "open" it up, and they still wont allow any modifications.

This is just what my installer is telling me. Who knows if its the truth, or if he just doesn't want to do it that way and is trying to keep me away from it.

If the Sol-Ark is wired properly, then it can only ever output 200a, so if you have a 200a service, then you should NEVER be able to surpass 200a. Thus, you never run into the 120% rule. But, @Bits-N-Nibbles and I are going to wiring them unconventionally which adds confusion.

 

[Hedges]

Yeah, from everything I've been reading a line-side tap would be ideal. However, I'm in the middle of woods, and the 120ft of trenching would be uhhhh, "challenging" to say the least. The PV array will be right next to the garage, so I figured the Sol-Ark can go in there next to the subpanel and batteries for shortest run possible. Is there any limit to length of run to inverter if doing a line-side tap?

No reason for a limit to line-side tap. But should have fuse/breaker near the tap.

If you put PV array at the garage, and SolArk at the garage, you don't have any backup power for house where main panel is located.
If you put SolArk at house and trenched 120ft for PV wires to garage, you would.

What you have described is a reason to do AC coupling. For instance, but Sunny Island at house and Sunny Boy + PV at garage.
That will still be subject to 120% rule, which could require downsizing breaker to garage because it is the PV breaker.

Two ways to wire Sunny Island - one is to have 120' garage run fed by Sunny Island. A downsized breaker in main panel feeds Sunny Island. For instance, 40A breaker from main panel (meets 120% rule), and Sunny Island adds power from battery when garage demands more.

Other way is 120' garage run fed from main panel. Sunny Island feeds main panel through interlocked "generator" breaker, and Sunny Island is fed either from another breaker in main panel, or from line-side tap.

SolArk could be connected same as Sunny Island, but a couple of issues: It works better with it's DC coupled PV totaling more watts than it's AC coupled GT PV (e.g. Sunny Boy or Enphase). And, they recommend AC coupled GT PV on "generator" terminals, which can be disconnected by relay, rather than on "output" terminals.

What is amperage of your main panel busbar?
Many are 200A busbar in 200A panel. But some, e.g. Square-D QO, have 225A busbar. Either 200A or 150A breaker is available. With 200A, PV breaker can be 70A; with 150A, PV breaker can be 120A.

I am not sure of the amperage limitation for a line-side tap. Ideally you could do a line-side tap and connect a 225A panel with 150A breaker, move garage wires to that. Would work for either Sunny Island at house or SolArk at garage. But I think having two panels, 200A + 150A, would be able to draw 350A from utility drop; that is too much. I'm able to do it that way because I have one more 200A breaker right at the utility meter. If your panel has wires not busbars between meter and main breaker, could be possible to wire through a 200A breaker before splitting to two panels.

 

[Hedges]

If the Sol-Ark is wired properly, then it can only ever output 200a, so if you have a 200a service, then you should NEVER be able to surpass 200a. Thus, you never run into the 120% rule. But, @Bits-N-Nibbles and I are going to wiring them unconventionally which adds confusion.

SolArk can only ever output 200A? To its output? Or to its input?
It can pass grid through relay to loads, probably needs 200A breaker feeding it. No issue there.

How much current can it backfeed into grid? Something like 12kW/240V = 50A? Maybe plus AC coupled PV?
50A x 1.25 = 62.5A, feed with 70A breaker. If main panel has 200A breaker plus 70A backfed PV breaker, 270A.
If main panel has 200A busbar, 120% rule is 240A, so limit of 40A backfed PV breaker for SolArk.
If main panel has 225A busbar and 200A main breaker, 120% rule is 270A, so 70A breaker for SolArk is OK.
(But that won't take advantage of SolArk's 200A pass-through capability. What you would like is to insert SolArk between utility meter and main panel.)

The 120% rule is about current into a panel from the grid plus current into same panel from PV. With backfed PV breaker located at far end of panel there at first appears to be no issue, even if you reached 200% instead of 120%, e.g. 200A from grid and 200A from a massive PV system, because busbar doesn't every carry 400A; it carries 200A from each end in opposite directions and drops to zero A where they meet. But I have figured out that Neutral busbar could end up carrying 400A.

 

[Balthazar-B]

Yes, its funny because most of the loads in the main panel are wayy closer to the garage sub-panel, which makes it easy to just pull them from the main panel and reroute to the garage sub-panel. Its probably what I'll end up doing in the future.

Line-side taps are apparently not allowed here.

Again, since we have meter/breaker panel combo's, the wiring between the meter and 200a main breaker is not accessible, so the electric company would have to come out to "open" it up, and they still wont allow any modifications.

This is just what my installer is telling me. Who knows if its the truth, or if he just doesn't want to do it that way and is trying to keep me away from it.

If the Sol-Ark is wired properly, then it can only ever output 200a, so if you have a 200a service, then you should NEVER be able to surpass 200a. Thus, you never run into the 120% rule. But, @Bits-N-Nibbles and I are going to wiring them unconventionally which adds confusion.

Who's your utility? SCE? If so, line side taps appear to be allowable if they're engineered correctly, the local inspection authority confirms, and signs off on them.

https://runonsun.solar/~runons5/blogs/media/blogs/a/Line-side%20tap%20letter.pdf?mtime=1376407936

Now it's possible that Visalia's inspectors have been ordered not to sign off on them, but that's something you should be able to explore. The key is making sure everything is buttoned-down such that there cannot be an objection because of poor design, engineering, or use of components that have not been approved by UL, etc., for the use to which they will be put. If you can locate any Visalia residents who have been successful at getting the local authority to sign off and then building out their solar infrastructure to code, if you slavishly copy what they did, the odds should be in your favor, I would think.