Sol-Ark 15K All in One Inverter Released.

[Egl_81]

I don't see the need/benefit of moving neutral/ground bond from breaker panel to disconnect.
Maybe code requires it, maybe not, but I don't know why it should.

I could have an isolated inverter/generator feeding a breaker panel that contains neutral-ground bond.
Or, inverter/generator could provide the bond, and breaker panel keeps them isolated?
Seems to me, grid, service entrance, disconnect switch is no difference.
Only L1 and L2 are being disconnected. Neutral feeds through the switch. Ground feeds through the switch. Works the same wherever bonding occurs.
The meter itself is a disconnect switch; utility can unplug it. Does that mean neutral/ground bond is required to occur inside or prior to meter socket?

I would think that if you leave the ground bond at the main panel, then current on the neutral can also flow through the ground wire connecting the main panel to the disconnect (and through any equipment in between).

 

[Hedges]

?

If there is only a single location where neutral bonds to ground, no current flows through ground wire.
If neutral shorts to ground in a second location, neutral current splits and flows partially through ground wire. If after a GFCI, that trips and opens circuit. But most circuits, and the utility feed, don't have GFCI (in the U.S.; in Europe, common to have 30 mA GFCI feeding entire house.)

 

[Carlos_Sol-Ark]

Scenario
Time: 4pm
ToU slot: 3-5pm battery 30%, grid sell enabled up to 10kW
Current battery SoC: 50%
incoming solar: 8kW
House load: 1kW
Max battery charge current set to 285A

In this instance would the solar power be used to power the loads and charge the battery or would it sell back to the grid after covering the 1kW loads (because the SoC is above the minimum set for the ToU slot)?

In this scenario, the Sol-Ark would cover your load and charge your batteries with PV before selling to the grid. It will prioritize battery charging to ensure you have the fullest battery bank possible in the event of an outage or to get you through the night when no PV is available.

 

[12kw_2021]

I don't see the need/benefit of moving neutral/ground bond from breaker panel to disconnect.
Maybe code requires it, maybe not, but I don't know why it should.

I could have an isolated inverter/generator feeding a breaker panel that contains neutral-ground bond.
Or, inverter/generator could provide the bond, and breaker panel keeps them isolated?
Seems to me, grid, service entrance, disconnect switch is no difference.
Only L1 and L2 are being disconnected. Neutral feeds through the switch. Ground feeds through the switch. Works the same wherever bonding occurs.
The meter itself is a disconnect switch; utility can unplug it. Does that mean neutral/ground bond is required to occur inside or prior to meter socket?

Hedges My understanding is it is a code requirement that the bonded ground is in the first grid connect box, whatever that happens to be. There are several other sources that appear to confirm this as code. Since I have an inspector who will check my install I don't feel like I have any choice in the matter. He also insisted that my 20 year old home needs a second ground rod 6 feet from the one installed outside . New code I guess?

So... I think folks who install the new 15K and like the idea of eliminating the need for a "critical needs panel" should learn (as I have ) that there is no free lunch, and adding something that appears simple like a fused cut off switch between grid and your main panel is a bigger, more expensive job that involves installing new bus bars in the main panel, removing and relocating every bare copper ground away from the shared ground neutral bus bar in the main panel.

In addition (in my case) you cannot assume that once the 4/0 main feed wires in your main panel are disconnected, you can then have them exit that panel, or be spliced to the longer wire required to connect to the new fused cut off switch. Code doesn't allow that either.

So in addition to the ground bonding change, and moving all the bare grounds inside the main panel, you also need to move the main panel (my feed is encased in 20 feet of pvc buried in the garage floor.) to the left to allow unfettered access to the grid power feed through hole and wires, then install a wireway, or box to make the splices needed to connect the new fused cut off switch.

And yes.. I am waiting on a reply from Solark about the "cartoon" schematic they include (#3 with xfer switch in my case) and expect that they will admit that the bonded ground location staying in the main panel is just plain wrong.

Hope this helps others who are going down this path.

Thanks for the replies confirming what I have learned.

Now back to running 4/0 AL wire through conduit and raceways.

Anyone available to come over and help me lift the 140LB Solark onto the cleat on the wall. My go to neighbor help is on vacation.



CPU

 

[Hedges]

Hedges My understanding is it is a code requirement that the bonded ground is in the first grid connect box, whatever that happens to be.

That would be the utility meter?

(In my case, the underground feed goes into a box with utility meter, has two busbars, L1 & L2, that 200A Murray breaker plugs onto, has one Neutral busbar with screw to box. Two lugs, one for ground rod and one for neutral wire.)

Simple meter socket of course just lets neutral feed through, doesn't connect.

Anyone available to come over and help me lift the 140LB Solark onto the cleat on the wall. My go to neighbor help is on vacation.

How does a 140 pound weakling hang a 140 pound inverter?

When I hung my original 2.5 kW SWR-2500U inverters 17 years ago, I was probably stronger and they were only 75 lbs. I was able to carry them up a stepladder and hang them head high. Taking them down to upgrade was doable, but difficult When I hung 75 lb transformerless 10000TLUS under the deck...

diysolarforum.com

 

[12kw_2021]

That would be the utility meter?

(In my case, the underground feed goes into a box with utility meter, has two busbars, L1 & L2, that 200A Murray breaker plugs onto, has one Neutral busbar with screw to box. Two lugs, one for ground rod and one for neutral wire.)

Simple meter socket of course just lets neutral feed through, doesn't connect.

How does a 140 pound weakling hang a 140 pound inverter?

When I hung my original 2.5 kW SWR-2500U inverters 17 years ago, I was probably stronger and they were only 75 lbs. I was able to carry them up a stepladder and hang them head high. Taking them down to upgrade was doable, but difficult When I hung 75 lb transformerless 10000TLUS under the deck...

diysolarforum.com

The nice teamster truck driver that delivered some stuff, agreed to take 5 minutes and followed me down to my basement, and helped lift the 15k onto the french cleat, so that part of my day went well. Prior to his arrival/help I was investigating use of my engine hoist or my cable come-along bolted to basement ceiling, with a cargo net to support the solark lift effort.

I am now wondering if I go to my outside garage wall , and intercept the 200A meter supplied home run going through the cement and conduit into my basement and insert the fused cut off switch there, does that change anything I can do downstream?

Is my main panel now a "sub panel" that I can splice the 4/0 al feed wires inside?

Would be great if I now treat my 200A main panel as a "sub panel" enclosure, and insert polaris lugs to make the main feed wires longer to go to the extra equipment I am installing in basement? (Xfer switch, Solark).
Figuring out some way to AVOID having to relocate the entire 200A main panel, that meets code would be very nice.

Or is the code such that when your main feed enters a large 200A panel it can only go one place , on the top lugs of the panel, right next to the main 200A circuit breaker no extension or re-direction allowed.

 

[Hedges]

After a fused disconnect, I think you can split any which way.
But does disconnect prior to SolArk have to be accessible to the utility?

 

[Wet1]

After a fused disconnect, I think you can split any which way.
But does disconnect prior to SolArk have to be accessible to the utility?

This was my concern as well. I assumed it did need to be outside and accessible (likely close to the meter), but based on 12kw_2021's intention of mounting his inside, I questioned if this wasn't in fact the case. It didn't sound like his inspector (or utility?) had an issue with it being inside. The SA manual doesn't seem to offer any direction in this regard.

The issue I have with it being located outside next to the meter is, anyone with nefarious intentions could easily disconnect power to the dwelling, potentially disabling some security systems if the BU system (SA) was bypassed for some reason. Either way, I'd prefer to mount the disconnect inside if it's not an issue with the inspector or utility.

 

[Danke]

It is not a requirement by Sol-Ark. They put that in their diagrams as it may be a requirement by your Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ).

The house I’m in has the meters inside as an addition to the house was made many years ago. I hope they don’t make me go through the expense of having to move them outside.

 

[Wet1]

What makes me question if it needs to be outside is, killing the disconnect does not disable the inverter or power to the dwelling (assuming the SA is actively working with PV or battery BU), so ER could pull the meter and have the same outcome.

 

[Hedges]

The issue I have with it being located outside next to the meter is, anyone with nefarious intentions could easily disconnect power to the dwelling, potentially disabling some security systems if the BU system (SA) was bypassed for some reason. Either way, I'd prefer to mount the disconnect inside if it's not an issue with the inspector or utility.

One fine day in New York, the power went out. People hurried home before dark, knowing what was to come...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_blackout_of_197

Your alarm system, and communications, could be powered by 12V SLA, with AC battery charger and DC coupled PV. That would provide triple redundant power for many hours.

 

[Wet1]

One fine day in New York, the power went out. People hurried home before dark, knowing what was to come...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_blackout_of_197

Your alarm system, and communications, could be powered by 12V SLA, with AC battery charger and DC coupled PV. That would provide triple redundant power for many hours.

I agree, the concern can be mitigated to a large degree (especially with the SA providing BU power), but the opportunity is still there for someone to disconnect from the grid with the flip of a switch, which I don't like for several reasons... Including the house can be occasionally unattended for weeks during one season.

 

[robby]

In case you did not catch it, Will has started a series of videos on the Sol-Ark 15K.
I have to say I am super impressed with the first video because he actually opened the unit and gave us a look inside.

 

[Shimmy]

It was a good video, but it made me scream out "single point of failure" as I went to bed...

I wish someone would come out with a good modular, compartmentalized system rather than this focus on all-in-ones. Having modules that plug together makes it so much easier to make sure one problem doesn't take out everything.

 

[robby]

Do you mean Victron style when you say modular or do you mean that internally it is setup more like a desktop PC? Meaning separate boards pushed into a main board?

 

[eXodus]

I don't see the need/benefit of moving neutral/ground bond from breaker panel to disconnect.
Maybe code requires it, maybe not, but I don't know why it should.

I could have an isolated inverter/generator feeding a breaker panel that contains neutral-ground bond.
Or, inverter/generator could provide the bond, and breaker panel keeps them isolated?
Seems to me, grid, service entrance, disconnect switch is no difference.

wondered the same thing.

In two of my properties I got a ground-neutral bond at the service entrance outside at the pole - AND another one the main panel. (100ft apart)

I think the separation of Ground and Neutral at the main panel OR service entrance came either in 1999 or 2008 NEC revision.

When installing something like the Solar ARK - I could just install it between those two ground and neutral bonds. When switching being on Solar Power - the Ground and Neutral from the Panel would be use - and on Grid power the Ground Neutral from the entrance ? (both?)

 

[Shimmy]

Do you mean Victron style when you say modular or do you mean that internally it is setup more like a desktop PC? Meaning separate boards pushed into a main board?

More like a Viktron or Motor Control Center-- something that handles obsolescence gracefully.

 

[Hedges]

wondered the same thing.

In two of my properties I got a ground-neutral bond at the service entrance outside at the pole - AND another one the main panel. (100ft apart)

I think the separation of Ground and Neutral at the main panel OR service entrance came either in 1999 or 2008 NEC revision.

When installing something like the Solar ARK - I could just install it between those two ground and neutral bonds. When switching being on Solar Power - the Ground and Neutral from the Panel would be use - and on Grid power the Ground Neutral from the entrance ? (both?)

If nothing branches off from the service entrance, I wouldn't worry about it because nothing connected to the portion of ground that might carry neutral current. So long as the ground at main panel is solid.

If I have a utility drop from overhead line, I think that is 3-wire 120/240V split-phase, and the neutral gets grounded and at my combined service entrance/meter/main panel. Neighbor's house would be the same. So "Neutral" on the pole is grounded at both our houses. Some current could flow from my ground rod to his, not much because wire is lower resistance, but I wouldn't have done that on my property (similar with yours except two wires neutral and ground in parallel.) If neutral utility wire came loose at my house, then up to 120V is applied between our ground rods.

When you add SolArk, where would it be located? Adjacent to main panel? You'll want a disconnect and OCP before it.

 

[Hedges]

When you add SolArk, where would it be located? Adjacent to main panel? You'll want a disconnect and OCP before it.

In video above, Will said SolArk could go between main panel and meter without a disconnect.
But inside the SolArk, the breaker (4 poles, 2 paralleled for each of L1 and L2) is on the "Load" connection, not "Grid"



Grid input (bottom terminals) goes to relay (below fan).
You want a fused disconnect on the outside, before SolArk (also lets you switch off power to remove for service).



Outdoor rated? But vent on top has no baffle. Rain will fall straight in, hope the exposed components (heatsink, any fan?) are OK for that. Debris would fall in too and start plugging things. I think it ought to have a rain cap. I would suggest putting an awning over it, high enough to not interfere with rising hot air.

 

[eXodus]

When you add SolArk, where would it be located? Adjacent to main panel? You'll want a disconnect and OCP before it.

My Meter box outside at the Pole has a disconnect (200A breaker) (and space for 4 breakers, which I don't use).


Then I got another 200A disconnect (switch no OCD) at the wall outside the house before going into the structure.


Then it goes to the main panel where there is another 200A Breaker to shut of the panel itself. Not sure if this is considered a "disconnect"

I was thinking about putting the Sol-Ark either on the outside of the house next to the Emergency Disconnect, (after the 200A disconnect) or inside before the panel (which on a wiring diagram would be the same, just the wire length would be different)

Was build to old Code and when I bought it in 2014, passed the electric inspection. So it's not wrong, just weird.