Sol-Ark 15K FAILED! - My experience with Sol-Ark ; Their response was underwhelming

[jharrell]

Wouldn't believe that especially when similar OMRON models with more explicit specs show only 10 cycles at similar power.

The OMRON shows they have been tested up to 10 times at full load in their test protocol, so thats a minimum. They don't seem to publish a durability curve like they do for others and like Churod does.

Sol-Ark uses the physically larger 1000vac Churods not the 830vac. I think the EG4 18kpv uses the 830's, the new Gridboss uses 270 amp 1000 vac's which are the same physical size as the Sol-Ark 200's

These relays should not be normally cycling under full load, the typical is grid down then disconnect so no amps.

Does Sol-Ark use the relay as a circuit breaker in overcurrent conditions? I could not find this anywhere, someone reported the new gridboss doing this, opening relay if a single cycle over 200 amps occurred, not good, they fixed it firmware. Should be using the circuit breakers for that not the relay.

If it was switching under load (why?) it could try to do it a zero crossing to reduce current. How often is 200 amps going through these things vs 50 amps?

 

[niktak11]

The OMRON shows they have been tested up to 10 times at full load in their test protocol, so thats a minimum. They don't seem to publish a durability curve like they do for others and like Churod does.

Sol-Ark uses the physically larger 1000vac Churods not the 830vac. I think the EG4 18kpv uses the 830's, the new Gridboss uses 270 vac's which are the same physical size as the Sol-Ark 200's

These relays should not be normally cycling under full load, the typical is grid down then disconnect so no amps.

Does Sol-Ark use the relay as a circuit breaker in overcurrent conditions? I could not find this anywhere, someone reported the new gridboss doing this, opening relay if a single cycle over 200amps occurred, not good, they fixed it firmware. Should be using the circuits breakers for that not the relay.

If it was switching under load (why?) it could try to do it a zero crossing to reduce current. How often is 200 amps going through these things vs 50 amps?

The output load breaker is the overcurrent protection. I had a short to ground recently after a surge from the grid destroyed my EV charger and the load breaker tripped.

 

[Oldphile]

These relays should not be normally cycling under full load, the typical is grid down then disconnect so no amps.

The Sol-Ark may disconnect due to out of spec grid including brownout, high voltage or out of spec frequency. So, disconnect under high load is possible if not probable.

 

[jharrell]

The Sol-Ark may disconnect due to out of spec grid including brownout, high voltage or out of spec frequency. So, disconnect under high load is possible if not probable.

How often is one pulling 200 amps? I have never seen over voltage or out of spec frequency on the grid ever. Brown out yes, which again it can disconnect at zero crossing plus the inverter is synchronized and assisting so full load isn't transiting the relay at the time.

 

[niktak11]

The Sol-Ark may disconnect due to out of spec grid including brownout, high voltage or out of spec frequency. So, disconnect under high load is possible if not probable.

Mine used to do this before I relaxed my grid settings because my grid in kinda crappy

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

How often is one pulling 200 amps? I have never seen over voltage or out of spec frequency on the grid ever. Brown out yes, which again it can disconnect at zero crossing plus the inverter is synchronized and assisting so full load isn't transiting the relay at the time.

remember we had that one member who has like 500 amp 3 phase service in some huge azz house he bought.. elevator, pool heater plus all of the multi zone multi ton a/c units... I bet he could pull 200 amps...

 

[zanydroid]

How often is one pulling 200 amps? I have never seen over voltage or out of spec frequency on the grid ever. Brown out yes, which again it can disconnect at zero crossing plus the inverter is synchronized and assisting so full load isn't transiting the relay at the time.

Where is your source that it (presumably we're still talking about the SolArk) has zero crossing disconnect?

I buy that the inverter is synchronized.

 

[jharrell]

remember we had that one member who has like 500 amp 3 phase service in some huge azz house he bought.. elevator, pool heater plus all of the multi zone multi ton a/c units... I bet he could pull 200 amps...

Running through a single Sol-ark 15k? 50 amps is unusual in my house, I doubt I have ever hit 100 amps at once let alone 200, the guy who had the issue with the Gridboss disconnecting at 200 amps had 32 kw in heat strips and his EV charger was going.

 

[jharrell]

Where is your source that it (presumably we're still talking about the SolArk) has zero crossing disconnect?

I buy that the inverter is synchronized.

I believe its a pretty common technique in AC relay control:

https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads...plicationNotes/ApplicationNotes/90003099A.pdf

 

[zanydroid]

Hmm, OK. I guess my question is, how much does initiating at zero crossing, rather than arbitrary time, help? Probably measurable improvement I guess, since there are application notes here.

The relay is a mechanical device, so it won't be that fast, and it will have sample variation. Does that circuit/logic attempt to estimate / monitor the typical opening delay of the relay?

 

[jharrell]

Hmm, OK. I guess my question is, how much does initiating at zero crossing, rather than arbitrary time, help? Probably measurable improvement I guess, since there are application notes here.

The relay is a mechanical device, so it won't be that fast, and it will have sample variation. Does that circuit/logic attempt to estimate / monitor the typical opening delay of the relay?

Sol-ark list 10 ms switch over right? Single ac cycle is 16.6ms. A soon as power is removed from coil contacts start opening and moving away from each other, if they start at zero crossing and voltage rises as they move away you minimize arcing, you can definetly tune your software timings to how the relays responds in testing to reduce the break amps significantly.

 

[Kornbread]

remember we had that one member who has like 500 amp 3 phase service in some huge azz house he bought.. elevator, pool heater plus all of the multi zone multi ton a/c units... I bet he could pull 200 amps...

Seen the clamp show over a 200amp draw on our service, and our place is nothing special. You need a load tester like the one I got.

 

[jharrell]

Also make amps is easy,

Seen the clamp show over a 200amp draw on our service, and our place is nothing special. You need a load tester like the one I got.

Have 3k sqft house most I have seen is probably 80 amps with backup heat strips and hot water heater and well, but no pool or EV which I wouldn't want backed up, well maybe the EV with load shedding for solar charge with grid down. Not talking surge amps which is not normally relevant unless you have software issue that considers 200 amps for a single cycle OC.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Running through a single Sol-ark 15k? 50 amps is unusual in my house, I doubt I have ever hit 100 amps at once let alone 200, the guy who had the issue with the Gridboss disconnecting at 200 amps had 32 kw in heat strips and his EV charger was going.

obviously he would need multiple units but electricity like everything else takes the path of least resistance... I could think of a couple of scenario's that might cause one to sweat a bit.

 

[jharrell]

obviously he would need multiple units but electricity like everything else takes the path of least resistance... I could think of a couple of scenario's that might cause one to sweat a bit.

Do go on, I am interested to find out in what situation would these relays experience 200 amps make or break especially on a regular basis.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Do go on, I am interested to find out in what situation would these relays experience 200 amps make or break especially on a regular basis.

vice that ask yourself why it was spec'd with a supposedly 200 amp relay to begin with and why do they advertise this? espescially when it seems that the relay is not really rated that high...

 

[jharrell]

vice that ask yourself why it was spec'd with a supposedly 200 amp relay to begin with and why do they advertise this? espescially when it seems that the relay is not really rated that high...

Not answering the question.

Its rated 200 amp carry and can handle 200 amp make or break the question is how often, 30k according to their life curve. Again if you can control the amps make or break through proper software control in what situation could would it have 200 amps make or break?

With make the inverter synchronizes ahead of time before make, break can try and wait for a zero crossing, overall how often is someone pegging 200 amps through their pass through and the relay disconnects or reconnects blind. Remember NEC 80% says 3 hours max then you must drop to 160 amps why is the inverter breaking during that time without waiting for zero crossing?

 

[Oldphile]

How often is one pulling 200 amps?

The relay is capable of switching 50A, not 200A. If you want to believe a BS Chinese data sheet, then we should agree to disagree.

 

[niktak11]

The relay is capable of switching 50A, not 200A. If you want to believe a BS Chinese data sheet, then we should agree to disagree.

Might as well make up your own numbers if you want to ignore the datasheet of a UL listed device

 

[jharrell]

The relay is capable of switching 50A, not 200A. If you want to believe a BS Chinese data sheet, then we should agree to disagree.

Yes I believe a Datasheet that multiple respected inverter manufacturers are using and that are UL listed over a random internet poster.

Beyond that WHEN IS IT SWITCHING 200 AMPS MAKE OR BREAK???

 

[Oldphile]

I believe its a pretty common technique in AC relay control:

https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads...plicationNotes/ApplicationNotes/90003099A.pdf

Unlikely that Sol-Ark is doing this. They would proudly touting this if they were.

 

[Oldphile]

Might as well make up your own numbers if you want to ignore the datasheet of a UL listed chip

We're talking about relays not chips.

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Might as well make up your own numbers if you want to ignore the datasheet of a UL listed device

So you send out a hundred carefully prepared samples for testing and once you get you UL listing you substitute garbage…. Tell me how many time have Chinese companies done that?

 

[jharrell]

Unlikely that Sol-Ark is doing this. They would proudly touting this if they were.

Every inverter I have dealt with, Magnum, Victron, Samlex does zero crossing switchover, they are after all monitoring and synchronizing to the waveform. Why would they advertise a common function, Sol-Ark does tout 10ms switchover which means it detects the loss of the grid in less than one cycle and does the switch over.

If there is a black out or even a brown out, the current is gone or going down hence "Brown" because your lights are losing power. Once the inverter decides the cycle is under its voltage threshold for that cycle it can disconnect either immediately or wait the 8.888 ms at most for the next zero crossing. Either way if it was at 200 amps it is not currently switching 200 amps which is why it's disconnecting to begin with. At the same time the inverters already taking over the load attempting to support the load so the current isn't coming through the relay from the grid.

When the grid comes back the inverter pre synchronizes the wave form and does another zero cross switchover at basically zero amps.

So I ask yet again when do these relays ever experience a 200 amp make or break? How many times would this occur over its installed life span?

 

[Daddy Tanuki]

Every inverter I have dealt with, Magnum, Victron, Samlex does zero crossing switchover, they are after all monitoring and synchronizing to the waveform. Why would they advertise a common function, Sol-Ark does tout 10ms switchover which means it detects the loss of the grid in less than one cycle and does the switch over.

If there is a black out or even a brown out, the current is gone or going down hence "Brown" because your lights are losing power. Once the inverter decides the cycle is under its voltage threshold for that cycle it can disconnect either immediately or wait the 8.888 ms most of the next zero crossing. Either way if it was at 200 amps it is not currently switching 200 amps which is why it's disconnecting to begin with. At the same time the inverters already taking over the load attempting to support the load so the current isn't coming through the relay from the grid.

When the grid comes back the inverter pre synchronizes the wave from and does another zero cross switchover at basically zero amps.

So I ask yet again when do these relays ever experience a 200 amp make or break? How many times would this occur over its installed life span?

Then why is it spec’d???