Sol-Ark 15K w Fortress E-Flex no longer supported closed loop?

[CopperTopper]

I installed a Sol-Ark 15K with 12K of DC coupled solar last fall. There was originally 2- E-flex batteries and we installed the other 2 a month later totaling 4 batteries. The system has been working fine in CAN closed loop communication for months up until recent. I have called Sol-Ark and asked what is going on and they said that closed loop is no longer supported with Fortress and to put it in open loop. This is not an option. Anyone know of what is going on? It seems like there has been a software update or something and all of a sudden no more closed loop? WTF!

 

[chrisski]

Installed last November, I have 4 X Fortress e-Flex w/ an Outback, and I'm unfmailiar with "Open" or "Closed" loop, but I am having a bit of trouble keeping these charged. The inverter and MPPTs read 100% and the batteries read 25% to 50%.

I wonder if that had anything to do with it.

 

[Alkaline]

Makes perfect sense if sol-ark is gearing to release its own batteries

 

[Oldphile]

There hasn't been a Sol-Ark firmware update since 2022.
Fortress now has their own line of inverters. They probably modified battery communications to work with their own inverters.

 

[Brucey]

There hasn't been a Sol-Ark firmware update since 2022.
Fortress now has their own line of inverters. They probably modified battery communications to work with their own inverters.

Are you sure? Didn't they disable a feature on the gen input recently?

 

[Brucey]

Sol-Ark 7.2.2.2 firmware?

I just had the 7.2.2.2 firmware pushed to my 15K and I was wondering what the improvements/changes are with this version? Sol-Ark does not provide a changelog on their website so my guess is as good as any on what actually has changed. Side note, after the upgrade I did receive a continuous F62...

diysolarforum.com

 

[Oldphile]

Are you sure? Didn't they disable a feature on the gen input recently?

Yeah I'm sure, my first system was updated to 7.2.2.2 Jan. 2023

 

[Balthazar-B]

I installed a Sol-Ark 15K with 12K of DC coupled solar last fall. There was originally 2- E-flex batteries and we installed the other 2 a month later totaling 4 batteries. The system has been working fine in CAN closed loop communication for months up until recent. I have called Sol-Ark and asked what is going on and they said that closed loop is no longer supported with Fortress and to put it in open loop. This is not an option. Anyone know of what is going on? It seems like there has been a software update or something and all of a sudden no more closed loop? WTF!

Did Sol-Ark (or Fortress, if you talked with them) indicate what had changed that disabled closed-loop communication? If Sol-Ark has not pushed out a firmware update to the 15K in well over a year, was it a recent BMS change that Fortress pushed out?

Since UL9540 certification with Sol-Ark inverters evidently is dependent upon closed-loop comms, would this mean therefore that Fortress ESS has lost its UL9540 certification with that change, thus rendering it non-compliant with code (at least in California, where UL9540 is mandatory)?

ETA: My installer has communicated with both Sol-Ark and Fortress tech personnel in the past two days, and both say that there has been no change in support for closed loop comms between the eFlex and 15K platforms, IOW it's supported. @CopperTopper, if you're willing to PM me the name of the person with whom you spoke at Sol-Ark, we'd like to contact him/her directly and try to resolve the disconnect.

ETA2: Brian Powell from Fortress reached out to me directly and re-confirmed that closed-loop with the 15K continues to be supported. He said that any customer who encounters a problem with this setup should engage the Fortess support organization by opening a ticket or calling them.

 

[SHTF Power Anyway]

My system crashed last week due to my Fortress batteries... I'd complained to Fortress over a year ago that the SOC's were wildly different. I never received help. Last week I had one battery hit 1 SOC while at the same voltage as the rest of the bank with SOC's ranging all the way up to 49 (and all over the map in between). I talked to Fortress on Friday and finally thought I was getting some help. I was wrong. I'm now stuck in Open Loop and the tech who was helping me has not responded to my messages sent over the weekend. It's now been 2 business days. I have two Sol-Ark 12 k's in parallel with an eFlex battery bank of 10. Shoot me. I am now flying blind. I guess I was before but didn't know it. Now I'm terrified... Ask me how I feel about Fortress (and Sol-Ark for that matter and ask me why)

 

[chrisski]

My system crashed last week due to my Fortress batteries... I'd complained to Fortress over a year ago that the SOC's were wildly different. I never received help. Last week I had one battery hit 1 SOC while at the same voltage as the rest of the bank with SOC's ranging all the way up to 49 (and all over the map in between). I talked to Fortress on Friday and finally thought I was getting some help. I was wrong. I'm now stuck in Open Loop and the tech who was helping me has not responded to my messages sent over the weekend. It's now been 2 business days. I have two Sol-Ark 12 k's in parallel with an eFlex battery bank of 10. Shoot me. I am now flying blind. I guess I was before but didn't know it. Now I'm terrified... Ask me how I feel about Fortress (and Sol-Ark for that matter and ask me why)

Did you fix this?

I am open loop with 4 fortress batteries and was having similar problems but not as bad. I can only charge open loop with an Outback radian inverter. I found these batteries need a charge every morning. I bypass the inverter for two hours so all the energy goes to charging. By the end of two hours the voltage tapers down.

This has stopped my issues.

Since I started this strategy, I have had sun for the last six months except for one day to do this. For you in the Pnw, you might go days before the battery is charged.

I plan on getting 4 more fortress eflex batteries.

 

[DIYrich]

My system crashed last week due to my Fortress batteries... I'd complained to Fortress over a year ago that the SOC's were wildly different. I never received help. Last week I had one battery hit 1 SOC while at the same voltage as the rest of the bank with SOC's ranging all the way up to 49 (and all over the map in between). I talked to Fortress on Friday and finally thought I was getting some help. I was wrong. I'm now stuck in Open Loop and the tech who was helping me has not responded to my messages sent over the weekend. It's now been 2 business days. I have two Sol-Ark 12 k's in parallel with an eFlex battery bank of 10. Shoot me. I am now flying blind. I guess I was before but didn't know it. Now I'm terrified... Ask me how I feel about Fortress (and Sol-Ark for that matter and ask me why)

Seems like a Fortress problem. All the batteries should be at a similar SOC level, so for one to be reporting 1, and another at 49, is really odd (and not a sol-ark problem).

Put a victron shunt in your system to keep from flying blind.

I have a 15k with a mix of batteries, with one in closed loop. It keeps all the batteries happy.

 

[KD4UPL]

I have a system with Sol Ark 12 kw inverters and Fortress Evault Max batteries. It's been in closed loop since it was installed in 2022. Today I called Sol Ark tech support about an over heat issue and the tech support guy told me that they no longer support Fortress in closed loop. I asked why and he didn't know.

 

[Brucey]

I have a system with Sol Ark 12 kw inverters and Fortress Evault Max batteries. It's been in closed loop since it was installed in 2022. Today I called Sol Ark tech support about an over heat issue and the tech support guy told me that they no longer support Fortress in closed loop. I asked why and he didn't know.

So they used to support Fortress and now they just decided not to? So you have to run in open loop before they'll deal with your inverter problem? It sure seems convenient to blame the batteries if an inverter has a problem.

@robby can you ask your solark engineer buddy what's going on?

 

[robby]

I have a system with Sol Ark 12 kw inverters and Fortress Evault Max batteries. It's been in closed loop since it was installed in 2022. Today I called Sol Ark tech support about an over heat issue and the tech support guy told me that they no longer support Fortress in closed loop. I asked why and he didn't know.

Sol-Ark and Fortress had some massive fall out about 18 Months ago.
I don't know if it had to do with the original eVault BMS issues, but I heard those issues caused Fortress to scrap the model and make the eVault Max using a new BMS.
I think some level of trust was lost between the companies and Sol-Ark booted them from their recommended list.
Fortress batteries still run fine in closed loop with Sol-Ark Inverters, so it is not a big deal.
How is the Inverter overheating related to the Battery??

 

[KD4UPL]

The Sol Ark tech support guy said that when our inverter was showing 90C on the DC side there were simultaneous "BMS issues". He thinks the inverter isn't really that hot and the fans weren't running because it wasn't really that hot. The temperature being displayed by the Sol Ark was somehow corrupted or just wrong because of the Fortress "BMS issues". I hate to be a jerk with tech support for fear they will make a note in my file about it so I didn't question him too hard but it sounds kind of far fetched to me.
We're seeing inverter DC temps near 80C when the 12 K inverters are only processing 7 - 8 kW of power to charge batteries. It seems like they shouldn't be that hot at only 60% load. I was using an IR temp gun and shooting inside the vents on the right side and couldn't find anything hotter than 27C.
Last May we did have an inverter get so hot, so we thought, that smoke came out of it. It was sent for warranty repair and they replaced the MCB and another board, not any FETS or anything that you'd think would produce smoke from too much heat.

 

[Brucey]

The Sol Ark tech support guy said that when our inverter was showing 90C on the DC side there were simultaneous "BMS issues". He thinks the inverter isn't really that hot and the fans weren't running because it wasn't really that hot. The temperature being displayed by the Sol Ark was somehow corrupted or just wrong because of the Fortress "BMS issues". I hate to be a jerk with tech support for fear they will make a note in my file about it so I didn't question him too hard but it sounds kind of far fetched to me.
We're seeing inverter DC temps near 80C when the 12 K inverters are only processing 7 - 8 kW of power to charge batteries. It seems like they shouldn't be that hot at only 60% load. I was using an IR temp gun and shooting inside the vents on the right side and couldn't find anything hotter than 27C.
Last May we did have an inverter get so hot, so we thought, that smoke came out of it. It was sent for warranty repair and they replaced the MCB and another board, not any FETS or anything that you'd think would produce smoke from too much heat.

So you have two 12ks, and one got so hot it was smoking and some parts were replaced...doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that whatever issue affected your other 12k is now affecting this one? Or at least the initial stages of the problem.

 

[Quattrohead]

There have been a few reported cases here of the Solark 12K overheating.

 

[KD4UPL]

There are 6 Sol Ark 12 kw inverters in parallel. When the first one overheated it was reading 90C on the DC side and beeping in alarm, none of the fans on any inverters were running. The customer said he saw some smoke come out of the inverter before he shut it down. The other inverters were showing similarly high temps but not quite as high. Sol Ark got the inverter the smoke came from and another one to analyze why the fans weren't running. The overheated one was repaired, both returned and reinstalled, and the all the fans ran when the system was restarted. They claimed they didn't know why the fans weren't running.
Now, about 9 months later the customer again noticed that the temps were getting up near 85C with the fans running. Out of caution he shut it down. When I went there to observe the system the inverters were all processing bout 7 - 8 kW of PV charging batteries and the DC temps were around 80C. This is with an ambient temp of around 74F. It doesn't seem to me that the inverters should get so close to their high temp alarm setting of 90C when only running at about 60%. Particularly when the ambient isn't that high.

 

[robby]

I asked my friend at Sol-Ark about this and he said that their have been Current setting issues with Fortress Powers Firmware that have come and gone with different revisions. Since Sol-Ark no longer supports Fortress he has no idea what the status is with their firmware.

He said to me that in advanced closed loop comms the BMS is controlling the Charge current the Inverter puts out and gets back Inverter temperature info from the Sol-Ark.
When the Sol-Ark is getting Hot in open loop or low level closed loop it will just throttle back the charge current on it's own.
In the case of advanced closed loop the battery sets and controls everything. The battery is sent the Inverter temp and a request to throttle down demand on the Inverter and it should send back lowerered charge setting. If the firmware is not working properly he says that the command sent by the Inverter does nothing and the BMS does not send new values to change the Inverters settings. This can lead to the Inverter getting hotter and hotter.

I suggest you talk to Fortress and see if they can downgrade your firmware.
All the new Firmware they make today is focused in on the Envy Inverter and that is one of the reasons I no longer upgrade my Battery firmware.

 

[Brucey]

I asked my friend at Sol-Ark about this and he said that their have been current (Amp) setting issues with Fortress Powers Firmware that have come and gone with different revisions. Since Sol-Ark no longer supports Fortress he has no idea what the current status is with their firmware.

He said to me that in advanced closed loop comms the BMS is controlling the Charge current the Inverter puts out and gets back Inverter temperature info from the Sol-Ark.
When the Sol-Ark is getting Hot in open loop or low level closed loop it will just throttle back the charge current on it's own.
In the case of advanced closed loop the battery sets and controls everything. The battery is sent the Inverter temp and a request to throttle down demand on the Inverter and it should send back lowerered charge setting. If the firmware is not working properly he says that the command sent by the Inverter does nothing and the BMS does not send new values to change the Inverters settings. This can lead to the Inverter getting hotter and hotter.

I suggest you talk to Fortress and see if they can downgrade your firmware.
All the new Firmware they make today is focused in on the Envy Inverter and that is one of the reasons I no longer upgrade my Battery firmware.

Why doesn't the solark just ramp up its fans instead of throttling back on pv charging? Why would its firmware let it cook itself to death?

 

[robby]

There have been a few reported cases here of the Solark 12K overheating.

What are you talking about?
You mean this?

How about a good story? Sol-Ark support took a while, and it wasn't exactly "smooth", but in the end, they upgraded me to a free 15k all because my 12k was getting hot, but still functioning as it should, I just wasnt perfectly happy with the unit.

This, at the time, was also when I only had DIY/Seplos batteries in closed loop. They never said a word about them voiding a warranty.

Post in thread 'Final steps of home install.' https://diysolarforum.com/threads/final-steps-of-home-install.39584/post-876228

Sounds like great customer support vs the Crap people have to go through with EG4.

 

[robby]

Why doesn't the solark just ramp up its fans instead of throttling back on pv charging? Why would its firmware let it cook itself to death?

It's kind of a unique case because Fortress is one of the only companies that was approved to do this but was then booted by Sol-Ark and yet still tries to implement it with Sol-Arks Comms.
Any other battery that you purchase that is not approved would not have this kind of control in closed loop.
As for the Fan ramping up, I am assuming that it is already running at Max, but the demand is still not dropping.
It would sound sensible to put a max temp and then override the BMS control. I will ask him about this next time we talk.

 

[Quattrohead]

In the case of advanced closed loop the battery sets and controls everything. The battery is sent the Inverter temp and a request to throttle down demand on the Inverter and it should send back lowerered charge setting. If the firmware is not working properly he says that the command sent by the Inverter does nothing and the BMS does not send new values to change the Inverters settings. This can lead to the Inverter getting hotter and hotter.

Why is this the battery's fault, the inverter should be taking care of itself.

 

[robby]

Why is this the battery's fault, the inverter should be taking care of itself.

Because the Battery is accessing advanced controls in the Inverter and Fortress Power is no longer in the loop with Sol-Arks firmware changes so it is no longer communicating with it properly.
What Fortress needs to do is update their firmware and stop trying to access advanced settings like current control and temperature feedback and just use basic SOC and Voltage exchanges like other manufacturers are doing.
I should correct myself and say maybe some other battery companies are trying to emulate advanced Sol-Ark comms. Any way whatever Fortress is doing it seems to be causing issues.

When a battery is certified compatible with a Sol-Ark there is a lot of info exchanged between the devices connected in closed loop.
Here is just some of the Info the Sol-Ark is receiving from the battery.
I cannot see the Info being sent to the Battery.


My Fortress eFlex batteries are running old firmware so some of the Comms data is not being received.
Info like the battery High Temp disconnect value.
The 56V is the max cutoff voltage.

 

[onokai]

On my Alt E 3 kilovault 7.5kw batteries the bms never worked so Sol-ark just had me scrap plugging it in and its been fine-no BMS . Every few years I change the settings to let the inverter relearn the batteries. I just had to do this.It take a few days then put the setting back as the tec instructed on the phone.