Is your solution automated and if so how is it triggered to start & stop?
Sol-Ark and generator issue/ suggestions please!
- Thread starter SCmountainman
- Start date
SCmountainman
New Member
It’s not automated. I run generator and chargers depending on weather and battery status.
Auto start propane or diesel was out of the budget. If I had a home standby it would be clean enough power to just feed the sol ark.
Or a Honda EU7000, but still out of budget for now. That’s what I’m getting next though. Saving right now for one.
RCinFLA
Solar Wizard
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2020
- Messages
- 3,563
Biggest issue with synchronous generator is not distortion. Most common issue is unstable generator governor rpm control. Inverter locks phase with generator. Inverter phase tracking is slow, <0.4 Hz per second of wobbling, so if generator rpm is unstable the inverter will not phase lock and refuse to connect to generator or will drop generator if connected and generator starts to wobble in rpm due to load on generator.
Sometimes the generator rpm is so far off it is outside the frequency capture range of inverter. This is the second most likely issue. It can be fixed by adjusting governor rpm set screw using the frequency counter function on most DVM's.
Wobbling rpm variance is sometimes not so easy to fix. A DVM freq counter will not pick up the small wobble variance. Best to just listen to generator for a smooth constant sound without any 'wha-wha' sound variance. First thing to check is dirty air or fuel filters. Running too rich or lean on carburetor mix adjustment can also cause unstable rpm.
Be careful of charger setting levels. Often the inverter locks and connects to generator then battery charging jumps hard on generator bogging it down, dropping rpm, causing sudden frequency shift on generator output causing inverter to immediately release from generator.
Sometimes the generator rpm is so far off it is outside the frequency capture range of inverter. This is the second most likely issue. It can be fixed by adjusting governor rpm set screw using the frequency counter function on most DVM's.
Wobbling rpm variance is sometimes not so easy to fix. A DVM freq counter will not pick up the small wobble variance. Best to just listen to generator for a smooth constant sound without any 'wha-wha' sound variance. First thing to check is dirty air or fuel filters. Running too rich or lean on carburetor mix adjustment can also cause unstable rpm.
Be careful of charger setting levels. Often the inverter locks and connects to generator then battery charging jumps hard on generator bogging it down, dropping rpm, causing sudden frequency shift on generator output causing inverter to immediately release from generator.
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Nobodybusiness
Collecting the leftovers of the Great Sky Reactor.
Are these regulated DC output or just Whatever RPM the Generator is at DC?
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byteharmony
Sunny side up please.
I’ve been away from the form a little while battling this issue.
15k sol ark, 48v LFE 4k Trophy battery + a little SLA because my battery is so small at low voltage it shuts off
Generator need is only standby.
The biggest challenge for me is that the Sol Ark 15k does not use the generator power input to ONLY charge the battery. It first draws from the generator to power loads using the dirty generator power (compared to grid and Sol Ark created power) and then, on top of those loads it draws from the generator with its 240v battery charger. I saw this is a challenge because a battery charger load can be constant and a big battery and Sol Ark can efficiently handle load spikes. Those same load spikes on a generator cause really dirty power, equipment wear and possibly failure / safety shut off systems to trigger.
Some important notes you may want to scroll to the end for:
This post is not intended to show disrespect to sol ark, generator manufactures, etc. Perhaps the Sol Ark generator input needs to power loads first or it can not deliver the feature of using it’s generator input as an AC Coupled solar power input. The sol ark has a huge number of features and those features come with limits.
120V generator with separate DC chargers.
Total cost: $700 - $900
Started with 120V gas generator with 48V DC 10 AMP chargers. I had lots of problems with this solution. It did not work at all with low SOC (state of charge) the Sol Ark would trigger low state of charge and fault.
With high state of charge sometimes the Sol Ark system would detect the incoming generator DC charging power as a problem and then shut off loads.
There was one time it did work. It was nice, solid consistent load on the generator, solid power output by the chargers, smooth house operation. For me, not dependable enough. Costs: I had the generator ($200 - $500), chargers cost about $300 - $400, custom wiring, I just used spare parts ($100 - $200).
Pros:
Sol Ark support was very nice trying to help me make this work. I think it could have worked well if my load was smaller. I run a few power-hungry computers all the time and at times (gardening and hunting) can have 6 refrigerators going.
The 120V generator I had maxed out at 2500 Watts, I could only run 2x 10 AMP chargers and 2x 5 AMP chargers before the load was getting too heavy. Perhaps if I had a larger generator with 4x 10 AMP chargers the solution would have squeaked by. However, the price point was about $500 for chargers and with the Sol Ark being so unreliable with this solution I moved in another direction.
240V generator with integrated Sol Ark charger
Total cost: $800 - $1,000
So I switched gears and got a firman Tri-Fuel generator: $800 (shipped with tax)
https://www.google.com/search?q=120...57j33i160l2.3504j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
I have it hooked up to the houses natural gas line ($30 - $1,000). You could go gasoline or propane depending on your resources. I used the 240V twist lock 20 AMP receptacle and ran a power wire ($50 - $200) right into my sol ark. I had to adjust the motor governor to get the frequency down from 63 Hz to 60 Hz
My house was a great worst case situation (imbalanced load).
Final working configuration:
Circuit A: 120v, 11 AMP draw
Circuit B: 120v, 2 AMP draw
Sol Ark configured to draw 5 AMPS to charge the battery. (240V load)
I had no 240V loads, that is my next priority project this summer. The generator is supposed to put out 5500 Watts on Natural Gas, 6900 Watts peak. More on all other fuels. That means each 120V output should handle about 2750 Watts, about 22.9 AMPS, 28.75 AMPS Peak. This did not turn out to be the case with the sol ark and my imbalanced loads. I maxed out at about 11 AMPS. Going to 12 caused a fault. I wish I would have metered the power going into the sol ark during the fault. Without having done that I don’t know if the sol ark stopped taking the power, maybe it was too dirty, or the generator stopped delivering power. The video I linked shows the sol ark receiving 240V power during the battery operation cycle so I think the issue is with the sol ark. At the price point I paid for the firman, even if I can only get 11 AMPs per phase with this crazy load imbalance I’m good. After I balance my loads and switch a bunch of 120V devices to 240v I’ll test again with higher charger draw.
I tried to up the charging to 10 AMPs, but it did not work. After about a minute the Sol Ark went back to battery, cycling on and off generator every minute. Same thing with 15 and 25 AMP battery charge.
- The beeping noise is the APC computer battery backups saying the power is too dirty and going to their own battery backup.
APC Battery Backup for Computers: This isn’t “NEEDED” as my present results show that computers on the SOL ARK backup power do not power cycle when the sol ark takes over. I have older units (linked below) but I don’t think newer ones are much different. When on generator backup the power is too dirty for the UPS systems and they go to battery backup. This may not be the case if I had a more balanced 120V set of loads. I may do this in the future by switching to a 240 V UPS system I have on hand. I was able to get it working properly by reducing the power quality setting in the APC systems to it's medium sensitivity.
https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/SUA1500RM2U/apc-smartups-1500va-usb-serial-rm-2u-120v/
So my journey is complete on this front right now. My price, $830 gives me unlimited run time at night, no need to run it at all during a sunny day (PV power), no trips to the gas station and room for lots of improvements in the future:
Improvements planned for me and options this solution gives people considering it:
Important notes about 240V generators:
48V generator
I wanted to add this topic because it’s so sad. The ideal generator for most off grid folks is:
As you can see by the above link, options are extremely limited and far more expensive.
That’s why I went with what I did, value.
Hope this helps, good luck with your projects!
15k sol ark, 48v LFE 4k Trophy battery + a little SLA because my battery is so small at low voltage it shuts off
Generator need is only standby.
The biggest challenge for me is that the Sol Ark 15k does not use the generator power input to ONLY charge the battery. It first draws from the generator to power loads using the dirty generator power (compared to grid and Sol Ark created power) and then, on top of those loads it draws from the generator with its 240v battery charger. I saw this is a challenge because a battery charger load can be constant and a big battery and Sol Ark can efficiently handle load spikes. Those same load spikes on a generator cause really dirty power, equipment wear and possibly failure / safety shut off systems to trigger.
Some important notes you may want to scroll to the end for:
- 240V generators only give half power
- Sol Ark can run the generator when grid power is on
This post is not intended to show disrespect to sol ark, generator manufactures, etc. Perhaps the Sol Ark generator input needs to power loads first or it can not deliver the feature of using it’s generator input as an AC Coupled solar power input. The sol ark has a huge number of features and those features come with limits.
120V generator with separate DC chargers.
Total cost: $700 - $900
Started with 120V gas generator with 48V DC 10 AMP chargers. I had lots of problems with this solution. It did not work at all with low SOC (state of charge) the Sol Ark would trigger low state of charge and fault.
With high state of charge sometimes the Sol Ark system would detect the incoming generator DC charging power as a problem and then shut off loads.
There was one time it did work. It was nice, solid consistent load on the generator, solid power output by the chargers, smooth house operation. For me, not dependable enough. Costs: I had the generator ($200 - $500), chargers cost about $300 - $400, custom wiring, I just used spare parts ($100 - $200).
Pros:
- Operation of this system was very smooth. The generator load was constant and efficient.
- Load spikes were handled by the battery / Sol Ark
- Phase imbalanced handled by the battery / Sol Ark (efficient)
- All commodity parts (except the sol ark)
- Not dependable
- Power scaling problem
- Cost scaling problem
Sol Ark support was very nice trying to help me make this work. I think it could have worked well if my load was smaller. I run a few power-hungry computers all the time and at times (gardening and hunting) can have 6 refrigerators going.
The 120V generator I had maxed out at 2500 Watts, I could only run 2x 10 AMP chargers and 2x 5 AMP chargers before the load was getting too heavy. Perhaps if I had a larger generator with 4x 10 AMP chargers the solution would have squeaked by. However, the price point was about $500 for chargers and with the Sol Ark being so unreliable with this solution I moved in another direction.
240V generator with integrated Sol Ark charger
Total cost: $800 - $1,000
So I switched gears and got a firman Tri-Fuel generator: $800 (shipped with tax)
https://www.google.com/search?q=120...57j33i160l2.3504j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
I have it hooked up to the houses natural gas line ($30 - $1,000). You could go gasoline or propane depending on your resources. I used the 240V twist lock 20 AMP receptacle and ran a power wire ($50 - $200) right into my sol ark. I had to adjust the motor governor to get the frequency down from 63 Hz to 60 Hz
My house was a great worst case situation (imbalanced load).
Final working configuration:
Circuit A: 120v, 11 AMP draw
Circuit B: 120v, 2 AMP draw
Sol Ark configured to draw 5 AMPS to charge the battery. (240V load)
I had no 240V loads, that is my next priority project this summer. The generator is supposed to put out 5500 Watts on Natural Gas, 6900 Watts peak. More on all other fuels. That means each 120V output should handle about 2750 Watts, about 22.9 AMPS, 28.75 AMPS Peak. This did not turn out to be the case with the sol ark and my imbalanced loads. I maxed out at about 11 AMPS. Going to 12 caused a fault. I wish I would have metered the power going into the sol ark during the fault. Without having done that I don’t know if the sol ark stopped taking the power, maybe it was too dirty, or the generator stopped delivering power. The video I linked shows the sol ark receiving 240V power during the battery operation cycle so I think the issue is with the sol ark. At the price point I paid for the firman, even if I can only get 11 AMPs per phase with this crazy load imbalance I’m good. After I balance my loads and switch a bunch of 120V devices to 240v I’ll test again with higher charger draw.
I tried to up the charging to 10 AMPs, but it did not work. After about a minute the Sol Ark went back to battery, cycling on and off generator every minute. Same thing with 15 and 25 AMP battery charge.
APC Battery Backup for Computers: This isn’t “NEEDED” as my present results show that computers on the SOL ARK backup power do not power cycle when the sol ark takes over. I have older units (linked below) but I don’t think newer ones are much different. When on generator backup the power is too dirty for the UPS systems and they go to battery backup. This may not be the case if I had a more balanced 120V set of loads. I may do this in the future by switching to a 240 V UPS system I have on hand. I was able to get it working properly by reducing the power quality setting in the APC systems to it's medium sensitivity.
https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/SUA1500RM2U/apc-smartups-1500va-usb-serial-rm-2u-120v/
So my journey is complete on this front right now. My price, $830 gives me unlimited run time at night, no need to run it at all during a sunny day (PV power), no trips to the gas station and room for lots of improvements in the future:
Improvements planned for me and options this solution gives people considering it:
- Balance 120v loads - A good idea for anyone using 240v AC
- Make all wiring and gas connections permanent – My current wires and natural gas lines are connected in the event of a failure. So no permitting and really low cost.
- Critter proof, noise reducing, cold weather effect limiting box.
- Upon batter failure wire starter into tractor battery / trickle charge system.
- Automate start and stop of the generator
Important notes about 240V generators:
- 240V generators only give half power if you’re only drawing 120V. In fact the number may be lower as my tests showed.
- Sol Ark can run the generator when grid power is on. This is a great feature allowing you to show an inspector that your generator will not be used to run power into the grid ever. And when you want to test / maintenance run your generator, you can start the generator, connect all your wires if needed, and then flip the grid power off with the generator ready to come online when the sol ark switches too it.
48V generator
I wanted to add this topic because it’s so sad. The ideal generator for most off grid folks is:
- 48v DC power output
- Auto start and stop on a set voltage points
- Motor speed governed by voltage level
- Multi fuel capable
As you can see by the above link, options are extremely limited and far more expensive.
That’s why I went with what I did, value.
Hope this helps, good luck with your projects!
Would connecting the generator to the AC input instead of the generator input and using the generator load shaving ease the instant burden on the generator when the heavy load start? Therefore stopping the sol ark from dropping the generator? This is for people off grid of course.
My understanding is Gen Limit Power value is also applicable when using the Gen Input. If the loads exceed this value, the invertor will reverse and assist feeding the loads. Same whether the generator is connected to the Gen Input or the Grid terminals.
DIYrich
Solar Wizard
The only difference between grid and Gen input is power rating. The generator is treated the same.
But the grid input has the inductive amperage meters that interact with it. Why they're not built in I'm not sure but I was reading the manual and it seemed as if it could respond quicker on the grid breaker then it could on the generator breaker because of those inductive pickups.
I was messing with the victron and it didn't pass any of the surge to the generator. It worked flawlessly compared to the Schneider connex 4048 that I had all kinds of problems with it passing surges to the generator overloading it despite the grid shaving all enabled and functioning properly. And the generator being an inverter generator so it wasn't anything to do with frequency. It just wasn't fast enough to respond to the surge.
It does have CTs built in to measure grid current. I didn't install the external CTs and it measures and displays grid current.
DIYrich
Solar Wizard
Were you charging batteries at the same time? You would think the inverter could adjust charge current to batteries to offset the surge.
When running the generator, I would set gen limit to 75% of generator running capacity, and charge batteries as fast as it can. Then it should draw a constant load off the generator. When batteries are full (80%), turn off the generator.
Your understanding is not exactly correct. When using the generator input the load is always powered by the generator. Additional, the inverter may charge the battery. In no cases does the inverter assist the generator to power the load while the generator is on. If the load on the generator exceeds the gen limit power setting then the charge current will be reduced. But it will not reduce below zero so the generator must always power the loads. When the generator turns off the inverter switches to powering the load. This behavior is not documented well at all in the manual.
When the generator is connected to the grid terminals we have a different scenerio. In this case the generator is treated just like the utility. So modes like limit to home and the charge schedule apply.
RCinFLA
Solar Wizard
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2020
- Messages
- 3,563
LF hybrid inverters are inherently bidirectional and can switch from charging to sourcing on the fly. This makes it very easy for them to do AC input supplementing to AC output load. Great feature when operating from a limited AC power source such as a generator. The LF hybrid must have the AC input current monitoring with power flow direction sensing so it can regulate maximum AC input current load and prevent any back feeding to generator. Most of the cheap Chinese LF hybrid inverter do not have this feature.
HF inverters are trickier. They have to do a mode switching on the battery to HV DC converter to switch between forward HV DC outputting or HV DC to battery charging buck converting. This takes a few milliseconds to make the mode direction switching. Cheap HF inverters don't even try to do this because their HV DC capacitors are not large enough to provide power output to support AC output during the mode switching.
SolArk and Deye HF inverters have a large HV DC capacitor bank to provide power during the few millisecond switchover. It is their intent to provide AC input assist but some of models do not have the firmware yet to support it.
On an inverter that support AC input assist, also called 'Load Shaving' the inverter supplements AC input with battery powered AC power to keep AC input current within user set maximum. It should automatically back down charging from AC input to give AC input power to AC output loads to stay within user set maximum AC input current.
As AC output load approaches AC input user set limit, the inverter switches from charging battery to supplying AC output current from battery to assist AC input, keeping AC input to user set limit. This is the critical mode switchover point that many HF inverters cannot do. The are several potential issues when making the switchover, like a sudden heavy surge load from an AC motor startup that it is very hard for a HF inverter to do because of the required mode switchover time.
A similar issue exists on HF inverters with AIO PV inputs. The PV charge controller is a DC-to-DC boost converter supplying its PV power to HV DC node of HF inverter. Switching between using PV for charging versus using PV for AC output load supplement has similar issues to AC input assist.
HF inverters are trickier. They have to do a mode switching on the battery to HV DC converter to switch between forward HV DC outputting or HV DC to battery charging buck converting. This takes a few milliseconds to make the mode direction switching. Cheap HF inverters don't even try to do this because their HV DC capacitors are not large enough to provide power output to support AC output during the mode switching.
SolArk and Deye HF inverters have a large HV DC capacitor bank to provide power during the few millisecond switchover. It is their intent to provide AC input assist but some of models do not have the firmware yet to support it.
On an inverter that support AC input assist, also called 'Load Shaving' the inverter supplements AC input with battery powered AC power to keep AC input current within user set maximum. It should automatically back down charging from AC input to give AC input power to AC output loads to stay within user set maximum AC input current.
As AC output load approaches AC input user set limit, the inverter switches from charging battery to supplying AC output current from battery to assist AC input, keeping AC input to user set limit. This is the critical mode switchover point that many HF inverters cannot do. The are several potential issues when making the switchover, like a sudden heavy surge load from an AC motor startup that it is very hard for a HF inverter to do because of the required mode switchover time.
A similar issue exists on HF inverters with AIO PV inputs. The PV charge controller is a DC-to-DC boost converter supplying its PV power to HV DC node of HF inverter. Switching between using PV for charging versus using PV for AC output load supplement has similar issues to AC input assist.
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