• Have you tried out dark mode?! Scroll to the bottom of any page to find a sun or moon icon to turn dark mode on or off!

diy solar

diy solar

Solar Mini Split or ... Solar and a Mini Split

Solar1

New Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Messages
23
My use case is to keep my barn above freezing. Of course, I will run it in the summer to keep it cooler, but I'm not sure how much cooling it will be able to achieve.

My initial plan was to get a 24k solar mini split and set it in the winter to start at 10am and the highest possible heat setting so it would run as high as possible with whatever solar was available until dark and then shutdown. That should warm the space enough to keep it above freezing.

But I also started looking at a regular mini split with a EG4 3000 inverter. I already have the panels so that's a win. But what I don't know is how an AC mini split will work with the inverter and panels. If for instance there is 500w available from the inverter and the mini split wants to run at 1100w what will happen? Will the mini split adjust to the available wattage or will it shut down or cause the inverter to shut down?

Of course I could hook up a battery or grid to the EG4 3000 but that would sort of defeat the purpose of heating/cooling on solar only.
 
If the main purpose is to keep the barn from freezing at night, getting a solar hybrid heat pump may not be that great of solution. Without batteries you would need it running on utility power at night a lot. -Just thought I would mention that I was watching an interesting youtube video where this guy was using solar PV with water heating elements so he could super heat large drums of water. They would release that heat at night. That might be something you would want to look into since you would not need expensive battery storage, but you would need space for the water storage. I thought it was an interesting idea for places like green houses , etc. Maybe a barn.
 
Thanks for the info. I think if it runs full tilt during the day it will heat the barn (which is insulated) enough that it won't cool below freezing at night....at least that's the plan. If not, then I will have to look at the mini + solar inverter + battery... :(

Although that wouldn't be all bad either as it would open up other possibilities for backup power etc...
 
Ha, I might have to use a wood stove before going there LOL.

Southern Utah. Barn is roughly 50 x 45 with a ceiling height of about 11ft. It is spray foamed with sealed doors, so it should be pretty tight. In all likelihood it will not get below freezing even without supplemental heat. But, a little extra insurance is not bad. I also figure that I can "tarp off" a smaller section of the barn to work in that I can keep a more comfortable temperature in winter and summer.
 
About same latitude as me then?? Doesn't sound excessively cloudy OR cold. I think you'd be fine. Be aware a 24k BTU on heat at full blast is a 2500W draw of course.

What's the el cheapo 24k non solar units go for?? (Pioneer, Senville) or even cheaper mystery brand names??

In this situation...are you "generally wanting " barn to be above freezing, or it MUST not freeze (water system, etc??)
 
Probably about $1-1.5k

Yeah I have 5600 watts of panels but would have to get new ones specific to the mini split due to their voltage/amperage requirements. The old ones would of course be repurposed later into a inverter system...
 
I'm running two 24K EG4 units in my 40 x 60 x 20' tall barn. One inch spray foam. Very loose home made sliding door. This summer it keep the inside 20 degrees below outside temps. We ran the heat a few days to keep our sprayer from freezing before we winterized it. At night we run of grid power. I don't think the heating is going to work as well as the cooling. Heat is going to rise, but that hot air sure feels good when working on something in the winter. In the summer, it may only keep it 20 degrees below outside, but again, that cool air blowing straight on you sure feels better than a porta cool unit that actually cost more than a mini split.
 
If for instance there is 500w available from the inverter and the mini split wants to run at 1100w what will happen? Will the mini split adjust to the available wattage or will it shut down or cause the inverter to shut down?
By the way, as long as the inverter driven std mini split OR hybrid mini meets its minimum operational voltage, it will simply slow down / put out fewer BTUs. As it goes lower, it will eventually shut off in either case w/o a battery...
 
That is actually VERY encouraging. I didn't think the cooling in summer would be that effective.
 
By the way, as long as the inverter driven std mini split OR hybrid mini meets its minimum operational voltage, it will simply slow down / put out fewer BTUs. As it goes lower, it will eventually shut off in either case w/o a battery...

Yes, that is what I was wondering if the non solar units would power down to available wattage or go into a fault mode as they, of course, are designed to run on the grid w/unlimited power.
 
We live in Maine and built a "barnpartment" this past summer, where we now live. Basically a very energy efficient 12-foot high garage with R40 walls and R60+ ceiling, with living quarters above it. Garage doors are R18, which is about the best one can do without going with ugly commercial doors. Sounds somewhat similar to what you have, other than the living quarters. I can confirm that it should be easy to keep it above freezing, but I wouldn't depend on that without some battery backup. If it were me, I'd go with solar AND a mini-split rather than just a solar mini-split.
 
Yeah, for sure either way it will be connected to grid for backup.

The more I look at it I lean toward solar plus a mini. But it sure is tempting to initially just throw a hybrid mini with some solar panels attached to it out there...as it's so easy and less panels for me to mount (temporarily) as I don't have the solar array mount built yet.
 
Last edited:
I think an off grid system makes the most sense if you have a eeason not to be grid tied - e.g. you have a net metering plan grandfathered in.

Once you start talking about adding batteries and different loads it just makes the most sense to tie the solar and batteries to the same load as the house - then all your loads can benefit from those systems.
 
But what I don't know is how an AC mini split will work with the inverter and panels. If for instance there is 500w available from the inverter and the mini split wants to run at 1100w what will happen? Will the mini split adjust to the available wattage or will it shut down or cause the inverter to shut down?
So here is my experience with the EG4 12k BTU Hybrid mini split we installed earlier this summer:

When running direct from solar in cooling mode we set the temperature as low as possible (16C).
It was wired up to two 450W solar panels in series inputing ~80 Volts 11 AMPS. (EG4 unit can handle up to 300V @ 11.5 Amps).
When the sun first came up the unit will try to switch on (sun below horizon-dawn light). Not enough power unit kicks off (internal inverter makes the “beeeeeeep!” of not enough power howl).

Panels get full sun unit comes on and runs with as much power as the panels can provide, all day long. Overcast shade unit throttles back ( you can feel temperature of air discharging get progressively warmer). Cumulus shade conpressor disenages entirely, but unit stays on “searching” for when power becomes available again to throttle compressor back up again.

As long as the panels have some light the unit will try to run to the maximum power capacity available. If the voltage of the panels drops much below 80 volts however compressor will disengage and if solar insolation becomes progressively less available unit will self power down completely.

When running it from generator 120V plug, compressor will pull as much power as it wants to try and maintain thermostatically set temperature.
For example running with a Honda 2000 generator (1600 watts max continuous 100% duty cycle; up to 2000 watts ~30% duty cycle)

Conditions:
-Generator in eco mode (throttle automatically varies based on load demand to save fuel)
-Thermostat set to lowest possible

80F outside air temperature (OAT)
Compresssor demands say 800 watts to maintain thermostatically set temperature.

100F OAT
conpressor demands 1800 watts to maintain thermostatically set temperature.

Since this is above the 100% duty cycle of the generator, generator tries to maintain amperage demand as long as possible until duty cycle “times out” (not certain of mechanism Honda 2000 uses - either an actual internal timer or temperature probe in inverter / generator windings) and throttles back to idle. Compressor kicks off. Unit is still alive so to speak (it’s still on just “searching” for enough power to throttle up compressor again, blowing progressively warmer air out of the indoor unit. After a few minutes in “cool down” mode the compressor tries again to draw current to ramp back up (it does so slowly and progressively over about two minutes). And if power is available compressor throttles up and cool air blows again.

Split unit was only hitting the generator duty cycle limit on the hottest of days this summer. Most of the time we only ran it direct from solar panels and whatever temperature it to could us down to was what we lived with. Funny but kinda hated partly cloudy days in the middle of summer; would constantly kick the compressor off leaving us hotter than if there was a full sun day.

Other notes:
After living with the hybrid 12k unit for a summer where we used it every day I made these observations:
I’m not sure of the exact algorithm the inverter uses to detect the available current when running direct from solar panels but it seems like it doesn’t “check in” very often. For example when a cumulus cloud shades panel string the conpressor powers off (unit still “awake/ alove”), but when the sun comes back out it doesn’t immediately begin to throttle back up for awhile. It waits 2-5 minutes before it “senses” there’s enough power from the panel string before it ramps the compressor back up again.

When running on the generator and plugged into solar string the generator ramps up to provide power when a cloud passes over and the compressor seamlessly transitions between the power sources and runs continuously with no interruptions. Often on partly cloudy days that’s how we ran it. It got sweltering fast if we waited while the inverter “searched” for power after a cloud passed over and panel string was in full sun again.
One short cut to this on mostly sunny days when a few random passing clouds would kick the compressor off, was to power down the Split from the remote, and turn it immediately back on, the it will go immediately to “search”/ “check in” mode and if solar insolation is available immediately throttles up the compressor to life.

Keep in mind this is only applicable to my experience with the hybrid (solar- alternating current) version. No idea how alternating current only version does though I noticed it does offer a high SEER efficiency rating (22.5 vs 28? IIRC?)
 
Thanks for the extensive writeup on on the hybrid A/C! I wonder if the unit takes 2-5 minutes to restart to protect the compressor? IIRC many A/C units will not restart within 2 minutes of shutdown to protect the compressor. I think this is to allow the pressure of the refrigerant in the system to drop so when the compressor starts again it doesn't have to immediately push against a high pressure. Maybe some smart A/C person will advise.

Who would have thought we need full sunny days to stay cool? LOL

PS the Hondas are great! The reason I bought one is precisely what you found they can run above rated output for a while. When I used it to charge batteries it would run at about 1800w for sometime and never shut off, but it was in the morning and cool outside. I think they must monitor the temp of the boards inside. I couldn't find another genny that would do that....
 
Thanks for the extensive writeup on on the hybrid A/C! I wonder if the unit takes 2-5 minutes to restart to protect the compressor? IIRC many A/C units will not restart within 2 minutes of shutdown to protect the compressor. I think this is to allow the pressure of the refrigerant in the system to drop so when the compressor starts again it doesn't have to immediately push against a high pressure. Maybe some smart A/C person will advise.

Who would have thought we need full sunny days to stay cool? LOL

PS the Hondas are great! The reason I bought one is precisely what you found they can run above rated output for a while. When I used it to charge batteries it would run at about 1800w for sometime and never shut off, but it was in the morning and cool outside. I think they must monitor the temp of the boards inside. I couldn't find another genny that would do that....
Install and operation instructions are in the manual posted on their web site.

 
Yes, instructions are there but his writeup is great real world experience and the wattages noted are great reference material!

The initial question though remains ... how will a NON hybrid a/c mini split react if it is supplied with insufficient wattage from a 120v source (being supplied by solar).
For example I set up a 6000XP with solar panels and no battery.
The A/C variable speed compressor mini split turns on and needs 1200 watts for cooling but the solar panels are only providing 800watts.
Will the 6000XP shut down? Will the 6000XP go into bypass and provide grid current only (if connected to grid)? Will the mini split adjust it's usage down to 800watts? Will the mini split shut down? How many licks does it take to get the the center of a tootsie roll lollypop?
 
A couple points to consider. If youre running a direct solar heat pump in the daytime to keep the barn above freezing at night then you are doing thermal energy storage. If you store the energy in a battery in the daytime then you're doing electrical energy storage. Either way your going to be storing energy so the question is which is more efficient and cost effective.

Thermal storage is going to be more lossy because it is linear with temperature. Meaning that you have to heat your thermal storage medium (the whole garage) higher than needed in the daytime in order to allow it to release heat at night by becoming cooler. That is somewhat true for battery electrical storage too (where it's voltage not temperature that goes up and down). But battery voltage doesn't change nearly as much at storage medium temperature does. So you will probably use less electrical energy overall if you store it in the battery rather than the building as heat.

Second consideration is cost. On a per btu or per kwh basis thermal storage is much cheaper than batteries, especially if it works out that there is enough thermal mass just in the building that you don't need to add any additional storage.

Id be sure that's true though. As a test you can run a fossil fuel heater in the garage during the day, then shut it off overnight.
Record how long you ran the heater and what temperature you reached and dropped to overnight. Repeat till you get the end point temp where you want it. Be sure to also record outside ambient conditions so youre comparing apples to apples.

If the temp drops too much then you may need to add thermal storage. Water is great for that and you're only paying for storage containers for the water. Those can be gallon bottles or something cheap, if you have the space.

Once you know how many BTUs you need to get through the night without freezing you can then size the solar system and heat pump to do the heating. And you can compare that to running the heat pump at night from batteries. That will tell you which way to go.

One other consideration. I don't think the EG4 heat pump is of the hyper heat type which can operate efficiently at low ambient temps. If it's not then it's not optimized for winter use at sub freezing conditions which is that you're trying to do. You don't want to look at the SEER rating, thats for cooling only. You want to look at the HPSF2 rating for your climate zone.

Edit: You could also store the solar energy in thermal form directly, without having to convert it to electricity first and then back to heat. Make it a passive solar garage. Put in some south facing glass. Let the sun directly heat the floor slab. Just sayin'...
 
Last edited:
Very good points and you are correct. I actually have 4 small south facing windows, sadly I could only buy low e windows now so they don't let in as much heat (how crazy!!). At any rate from what the neighbors tell me it won't likely get below freezing even w/o heating in the day. I just want an extra bit of insurance, and of course, it's nicer to work in a warm barn (garage). :)
 
If the temp drops too much then you may need to add thermal storage. Water is great for that and you're only paying for storage containers for the water. Those can be gallon bottles or something cheap, if you have the space.

I had not thought about that. My routine should be opposite of what I used to do which was blow all the water out of the motorhome water lines (since it sat outside). I should now make sure that the water tank is full, that's 150 gallons of heat sink right in the mh where I want it!!!
 

diy solar

diy solar
Back
Top