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Solar tax credit? Fair or unfair?

What do you think is best?

  • We need the solar tax credit and it is fair

    Votes: 64 41.0%
  • No need for solar tax credit, but make exceptions for companies

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • No subsidies for anyone!

    Votes: 80 51.3%
  • I do not care or do not live in America

    Votes: 10 6.4%

  • Total voters
    156
Self-inflicted 1st world problem.

Just operate them cryptominers as variable dump loads.
Can you vary clock speed or otherwise make continuously variable?
If not, just enable/disable in steps. If not identical in power consumption, even better.
Yes. The noise threshold is 400W with 0 hashes. Currently only running one at 2500W because of the heat. Max is around 3300, 300W steps. Playing around with ventillation to get a little better control. of the physical aspects. SOC is currently ~ 50% at 0500, and 100% at 1200. This will not hold thru July/Aug, current nitetime temps ~ 85F. When it's 95-100 overnight it will be somewhat different. I'll know more once I get the cooling situation sane.
 
In general I'm against subsidizing anything, so that's what I voted.

I can play devil's advocate and say that subsidizing energy companies can be a matter of national security. I can at least understand the rationale behind subsidizing food production, mass energy production/distribution, etc.

Frankly I feel the solar tax credit for the most part only benefits wealthy Americans that probably would have bought solar anyways without the tax credit. I say that as someone who probably falls into that category.
Agreed! Anyone able to install solar meets my definition of wealthy, including me. There are very, very few residents of the USA who I would not consider wealthy - it’s just a matter of how wealthy.
 
Wealth is subjective. You can have very little retained earnings and be a very rich man.
Well, you can pick nits, but . . . The reference was to people in the US being generally wealthy. Most people do not really grok the difference between wealth and income. Wealth is what you have, income is what you earn. What one considers to be wealth is subjective. If you p*ss away everything you earn on frivolities showing off how 'wealthy' you are, you are not actually very wealthy.
 
there is an old story from the 50s and 60s

the USSR got pictures of the slums in the US, New York area and used those films to show their own people how poor people were in the US

then......the questions started by the Russian and other people: Who owned all the cars in the "poor" areas shown of America?
 
Well, you can pick nits, but . . . The reference was to people in the US being generally wealthy. Most people do not really grok the difference between wealth and income. Wealth is what you have, income is what you earn. What one considers to be wealth is subjective. If you p*ss away everything you earn on frivolities showing off how 'wealthy' you are, you are not actually very wealthy.
And that's the thing. I know people who make more than I did who can't afford to install solar. They CAN afford their daily Starbucks, eating out nearly every day, a new phone when it comes out each year, travel packages, etc.... After I sold my business, I worked for a similar business for 7 years. I watched the younger workers walk in with their caffeine drink of choice from either a coffee place or minimart, go out to eat lunch every day, pump money through the vending machines, and smoke or vape. A small group of us were older. We all brought our lunch, coffee from home if they drank it, didn't use the vending machine, and none of us smoked or vaped. We all had old or no phones. None of us were flying to islands or Europe.

It's about priorities. If someone wants solar, make it happen. But don't come crying to me that you can't afford it without incentives, but can afford all the luxuries in life.
 
Reading the sig. . .
"Using less energy is almost always cheaper than finding ways to make more of it"

Y'know, not so much these days if you are using solar . If you are building new, spending a few extra bucks on more energy efficient stuff makes sense, but retro-fitting energy efficient stuff can be very expensive, and if you are already spending the money on the solar spending a few extra bucks on a bit more more solar might make more sense than ripping out and retro-fitting more efficient stuff. Solar energy is such an interesting paradigm, because your generation once purchased does not require the purchase/use of continuous fuel sources. The purchase cost of the generation has been steadily declining, and the investment in it thus far appears to be amortizable over a very long term. Batteries/storage are the only major issue, and even that seems to be falling in cost, and with a few breakthru's could get very inexpensive relative to getting happy trying to use less.

YMMV.
 
Eliminating the tax credit and lowering everyone’s taxes is now being debated in the senate in what is being called a “big beautiful bill”

Meanwhile tariffs are being levied, removed and re-levied. Sometime new tariffs are added indiscriminately without mention of previous tariffs.
No one bothers to determine what they are on any one day because they could be different the next day.

The entire purpose seems to be to encourage people to buy American made products and to have a little extra money to do so.

The same thing could be accomplished by making the credits only apply to American made products.

No subsidies needed and the credits can be set to make American made products competitive.
 
Commercial airline travel has 1/10th the death rate per passenger mile as private automobiles.

Commercial air travel has the same death rate per passenger hour as private automobiles.

Difference is, you aren't in control of your own fate. Except for your decision to know where exits are, and not to try to save your personal items. But still at mercy of others pulling out their luggage or recording to get eyeball/click revenue.
I'd rather die from old age than from miles traveled.

Obit: John Doe passed away. He was 30 years old but lived a long traveled life, having logged over 2 million miles of air travel.
 
Eliminating the tax credit and lowering everyone’s taxes is now being debated in the senate in what is being called a “big beautiful bill”

Meanwhile tariffs are being levied, removed and re-levied. Sometime new tariffs are added indiscriminately without mention of previous tariffs.
No one bothers to determine what they are on any one day because they could be different the next day.

The entire purpose seems to be to encourage people to buy American made products and to have a little extra money to do so.

The same thing could be accomplished by making the credits only apply to American made products.

No subsidies needed and the credits can be set to make American made products competitive.
You cannot subsidize or give out credits on products that do not exist. There is no incentive to make the stuff here yet. People are so short-sighted it's stunning. The Asian mindset is often much more long term, which is why they have managed to wiggle their way underneath the covers so far. I can be patient for a year or two to see how it plays out. I refuse to sweat the day-to-day rhetoric and disruption, we did not gain all the weight overnight, and it's unhealthy to take it off that way.
 
And that's the thing. I know people who make more than I did who can't afford to install solar. They CAN afford their daily Starbucks, eating out nearly every day, a new phone when it comes out each year, travel packages, etc.... After I sold my business, I worked for a similar business for 7 years. I watched the younger workers walk in with their caffeine drink of choice from either a coffee place or minimart, go out to eat lunch every day, pump money through the vending machines, and smoke or vape. A small group of us were older. We all brought our lunch, coffee from home if they drank it, didn't use the vending machine, and none of us smoked or vaped. We all had old or no phones. None of us were flying to islands or Europe.

It's about priorities. If someone wants solar, make it happen. But don't come crying to me that you can't afford it without incentives, but can afford all the luxuries in life.
is this the avocado toast argument?

I'm in my 20s, and only know a few people around my age who can afford to eat out more than once a week. I make 6 figures and can't afford it. over 1/3 of my income goes just to housing (which I rent). My parents, however, eat out 2x a day, drink expensive alcohol, do various things to avoid paying taxes, but I've also heard them say similar things about younger people.

Maybe if I save up for 5 years, living like a monk as I do, I'll possibly be able to afford a home. Too bad my employer doesn't believe in periodic raises, and the cost of a new home is increasing at about the rate I can save for one. At a certain point, the "goal" of "home ownership" becomes a fantasy, so I can se why many people in my age group don't even bother saving, and try to live some instead. If I were getting paid "more average" rates for people in my age group, I'd be looking at 10-20 years of saving just to afford a down payment. I guess you should expect everyone under 40 do nothing but save, so they can one day afford a home and stop giving all of their money to their landlord.


A basic solar setup may cost a few thousand dollars. How much do you think younger people have saved given how much everything costs? I drink energy drinks daily, those cost about $2 a piece and are equivalent to about 2 coffees. I could save $1 a day or so by making my own coffee. It would take me approximately 10 years of "cutting costs" to afford solar panels by changing that habit.

If you ask me, it makes far more sense to drink something I like the taste of more, and is easier to drink/less effort than to spend 5 extra minutes a day to save a dollar, especially when those savings don't amount to anything substantial.

You also mention vaping, which is far, far less expensive than smoking.

Also about the phones, don't a lot of carriers have like "iphone forever" plans where you can get the new model each year for a reduced price? When you need a phone for work, and most things are done through it, doesn't it make a bit of sense to prioritize that over other things? I mean granted you're making a lot of generalizations. I'm in the age group you're complaining about and my phone was $200 new and has lasted me about 3 years. I'm super into tech too, I just know what I need.

Making generalizations about whole groups of people, and painting them as people "without financial sense" doesn't really make sense.
I'd bet those people you're complaining about are heavily supported by their parents, so they just do whatever they want with their money without a care. Were these people being paid way more than you? I certainly can't afford to fly to Europe.


I'll make a generalization though, you can blame the generations of people who got things into this state, not the children forced to grow up in it.
 
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is this the avocado toast argument?

I'm in my 20s, and only know a few people around my age who can afford to eat out more than once a week. I make 6 figures and can't afford it. over 1/3 of my income goes just to housing (which I rent). My parents, however, eat out 2x a day, drink expensive alcohol, do various things to avoid paying taxes, but I've also heard them say similar things about younger people.

Maybe if I save up for 5 years, living like a monk as I do, I'll possibly be able to afford a home. Too bad my employer doesn't believe in periodic raises, and the cost of a new home is increasing at about the rate I can save for one. At a certain point, the "goal" of "home ownership" becomes a fantasy, so I can se why many people in my age group don't even bother saving, and try to live some instead. If I were getting paid "more average" rates for people in my age group, I'd be looking at 10-20 years of saving just to afford a down payment. I guess you should expect everyone under 40 do nothing but save, so they can one day afford a home and stop giving all of their money to their landlord.
Only if you want to one day afford a home. If you make 6 figures and cannot save any money, you are either irresponsible or stupid or both. There is no other way to frame it. I find your comments beyond insulting and so arrogant as to make me think its a troll. The entitlement of the current crop of children is stunning. My son is in his 20's, and he is paying a mortgage on a smallish 3 bedroom home, he saved the money to get the down payment for. He just got married, about a year ago, and they have a new baby. He has *NEVER* made 6 figures and his wife just finished school, and will start working soon, bringing their income up to just over your 6 figure level moving forward.

I lost *everything* at one point. My housing costs were 70% of my income, although at the time I was already upside down in a mortgage. I got my sh-t together. Dumped the car payments, two sh-tty jobs, this very same son and I managed to eat out once a week, I was making around $30K a year, my house payment was $1800, utilities around $250/mo. No more netflix/cable/etc/etc/etc. I drove junk and kept it rolling working on it myself.

If you ain't makin' it on 100K/year it is 100% on you, quit blaming it on everything else and grow the f up. I'd start by getting rid of the car payment, and cutting up the credit card.
 
is this the avocado toast argument?

I'm in my 20s, and only know a few people around my age who can afford to eat out more than once a week. I make 6 figures and can't afford it. over 1/3 of my income goes just to housing (which I rent). My parents, however, eat out 2x a day, drink expensive alcohol, do various things to avoid paying taxes, but I've also heard them say similar things about younger people.

Maybe if I save up for 5 years, living like a monk as I do, I'll possibly be able to afford a home. Too bad my employer doesn't believe in periodic raises, and the cost of a new home is increasing at about the rate I can save for one. At a certain point, the "goal" of "home ownership" becomes a fantasy, so I can se why many people in my age group don't even bother saving, and try to live some instead. If I were getting paid "more average" rates for people in my age group, I'd be looking at 10-20 years of saving just to afford a down payment. I guess you should expect everyone under 40 do nothing but save, so they can one day afford a home and stop giving all of their money to their landlord.


A basic solar setup may cost a few thousand dollars. How much do you think younger people have saved given how much everything costs? I drink energy drinks daily, those cost about $2 a piece and are equivalent to about 2 coffees. I could save $1 a day or so by making my own coffee. It would take me approximately 10 years of "cutting costs" to afford solar panels by changing that habit.

If you ask me, it makes far more sense to drink something I like the taste of more, and is easier to drink/less effort than to spend 5 extra minutes a day to save a dollar, especially when those savings don't amount to anything substantial.

You also mention vaping, which is far, far less expensive than smoking.

Also about the phones, don't a lot of carriers have like "iphone forever" plans where you can get the new model each year for a reduced price? When you need a phone for work, and most things are done through it, doesn't it make a bit of sense to prioritize that over other things? I mean granted you're making a lot of generalizations. I'm in the age group you're complaining about and my phone was $200 new and has lasted me about 3 years. I'm super into tech too, I just know what I need.

Making generalizations about whole groups of people, and painting them as people "without financial sense" doesn't really make sense.
I'd bet those people you're complaining about are heavily supported by their parents, so they just do whatever they want with their money without a care. Were these people being paid way more than you? I certainly can't afford to fly to Europe.


I'll make a generalization though, you can blame the generations of people who got things into this state, not the children forced to grow up in it.
The fact that you chose to pick apart my examples just goes to show how over your head this is. You are so missing the point.
I watched my generation make it work. I watch your generation not make it work. Enough said.
 
Only if you want to one day afford a home. If you make 6 figures and cannot save any money, you are either irresponsible or stupid or both. There is no other way to frame it. I find your comments beyond insulting and so arrogant as to make me think its a troll. The entitlement of the current crop of children is stunning. My son is in his 20's, and he is paying a mortgage on a smallish 3 bedroom home, he saved the money to get the down payment for. He just got married, about a year ago, and they have a new baby. He has *NEVER* made 6 figures and his wife just finished school, and will start working soon, bringing their income up to just over your 6 figure level moving forward.

I lost *everything* at one point. My housing costs were 70% of my income, although at the time I was already upside down in a mortgage. I got my sh-t together. Dumped the car payments, two sh-tty jobs, this very same son and I managed to eat out once a week, I was making around $30K a year, my house payment was $1800, utilities around $250/mo. No more netflix/cable/etc/etc/etc. I drove junk and kept it rolling working on it myself.

If you ain't makin' it on 100K/year it is 100% on you, quit blaming it on everything else and grow the f up. I'd start by getting rid of the car payment, and cutting up the credit card.
lol, I barely spend money on anything. pretty much all of my money goes to housing, and the next largest expense is internet service (which I use for work). In my area, the average home price is around 500k. I can let you do the math, but for a down payment I'd need 75k saved. I've saved >90% of my income except for money spend on housing and absolute necessities, and an occasional project, such as solar stuff or hardware projects. I would need to save basically every dollar except for what is spent on survival for 4 years to afford a house, mostly because rent is so damn high.

I don't have any debt, and I'm not making any monthly payments but my rent/electricity/car insurance/health insurance/internet service. I don't subscribe to any streaming services. all of that adds up, and I can't stop paying for any of that unless I want to not be able to drive or worry about bankrupting myself over an illness or injury. In fact I'm saving for a down payment but the goal posts keep moving. I'm also telling you that the only people in my age group I know of who are even close to affording a house a) have a partner who also has relatively high income b) work multiple MAANG jobs.

6 figures sounds like a lot if you're in the woods, that's not very much if you're living alone in a major city.
 
The fact that you chose to pick apart my examples just goes to show how over your head this is. You are so missing the point.
I watched my generation make it work. I watch your generation not make it work. Enough said.
your generation took our future, enough said.
 
If you ain't makin' it on 100K/year it is 100% on you, quit blaming it on everything else and grow the f up. I'd start by getting rid of the car payment, and cutting up the credit card.
Agreed. Priorities definitely aren't in order or something is being seriously done wrong.
Money spent on rent long term is money wasted.
(Coming from a 36 yr old).
 
Agreed. Priorities definitely aren't in order or something is being seriously done wrong.
Money spent on rent long term is money wasted.
(Coming from a 36 yr old).
do you know a nice bench i can work from while I save some?

and as I explained, I'm saving nearly all of my money (which is not taxed or spent on survival). Maybe in a few more years I'll be able to afford a home. Until then, the majority of money I'm spending, not saving, is being "wasted" on just having a place to live, and eating <2000 calories of very cheap food daily. I can't do any better than this, and it kinda sucks to live like this for 5 or so years before I can even _start_ to really use the money I earn.

If the argument is that I should forego "luxuries" like a $2 energy drink a day, or I'm irresponsible, then lol.

I actually did the math (because I track my spending) and I've spent a total of 5% of my income before taxes on "non-essential" things, using the upper estimate of what I've spent on:
- I've spent on all hardware, parts, odds and ends of solar stuff ~$4000
- my workstation which I use for work
- The cost of all "random" modules/sensors/single board computers/network devices I've bought to do research on the tech

Almost everything listed there falls into the category of "personal investment" in my opinion, as it's almost entirely spent on tools/components I need to learn and engage in projects I enjoy. I also use those skills to make myself more valuable so I can potentially get paid more in the future.
 
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do you know a nice bench i can work from while I save some?
Look for a fixer upper, fix it up while living in it and flip it.
and as I explained, I'm saving nearly all of my money (which is not taxed or spent on survival). Maybe in a few more years I'll be able to afford a home. Until then, the majority of money I'm spending, not saving, is being "wasted" on just having a place to live, and eating <2000 calories of very cheap food daily. I can't do any better than this, and it kinda sucks to live like this for 5 or so years before I can even _start_ to really use the money I earn.
I feel like you can do better you're just comfortable living how you are.
If the argument is that I should forego "luxuries" like a $2 energy drink a day, or I'm irresponsible, then lol.
Nope; but you could buy it by the case and save money everyday, you could drink coffee black (it's better for you anyway), heck I used 200mg caffeine tablets for years; they are dirt cheap.

What I'm saying is something isn't adding up if your making 6 figures and can't afford to have nice things that you want.
... Rant
I'm paying extra on my mortgage every month, extra into retirement every 2 weeks, xxx amount into an untouched account every 2 weeks, my truck (19 Silverado) is paid off, my quad is paid off, my tractor is paid off, my enduro is paid off, my project car (money pit) is paid off, I'm making double payments on the EV (2017 Bolt, no I didn't qualify for the tax credit due to income) because fuck interest, I have 0 credit card debt because I pay it off every month and enjoy the rewards points. I spend a couple to few hundred on average on 2A stuff every month, I'm rocking a OnePlus 12T (finally upgraded from the 6T last year... You get the point.

I have a decently sized ESS (14.5kW PV, 20kW AIO's, 53kWh battery bank with another 28kWh I need to build.
I would have still invested heavily into solar because I want independence from the grid, regardless of incentives.


... End rant, damn it's nice outside.
 
Look for a fixer upper, fix it up while living in it and flip it.

I feel like you can do better you're just comfortable living how you are.

Nope; but you could buy it by the case and save money everyday, you could drink coffee black (it's better for you anyway), heck I used 200mg caffeine tablets for years; they are dirt cheap.

What I'm saying is something isn't adding up if your making 6 figures and can't afford to have nice things that you want.
... Rant
I'm paying extra on my mortgage every month, extra into retirement every 2 weeks, xxx amount into an untouched account every 2 weeks, my truck (19 Silverado) is paid off, my quad is paid off, my tractor is paid off, my enduro is paid off, my project car (money pit) is paid off, I'm making double payments on the EV (2017 Bolt, no I didn't qualify for the tax credit due to income) because fuck interest, I have 0 credit card debt because I pay it off every month and enjoy the rewards points. I spend a couple to few hundred on average on 2A stuff every month, I'm rocking a OnePlus 12T (finally upgraded from the 6T last year... You get the point.

I have a decently sized ESS (14.5kW PV, 20kW AIO's, 53kWh battery bank with another 28kWh I need to build.
I would have still invested heavily into solar because I want independence from the grid, regardless of incentives.


... End rant, damn it's nice outside.
I am paying "above average" rates for rent in the area, but not by much. I was renting at "very slightly above average" places for 3 years and kept moving or getting out of my lease (i complained a lot so they let me do it for free) because every place was unsuitable for working from home. I do not regret paying a bit more for now, because what I lose in dollars, I gain in sanity. Those places also had paper thin walls/ceilings, bad parking, nasty hallways (urine/vomit/dog poop), etc. There were also frequent network outages at 2/3 of the locations. I now have dual ISPs which is worth it for what I do, and is nice for learning/testing (I'm a network engineer).

The last place I lived at, and I'm not exaggerating, had the building fire alarms go off at least 2x a month. Most of the time it was late in the evening. Management claims it was either faulty wiring, or someone pulling it at a prank (they don't know). When the fire alarm was not going off, I was measuring 80+ decibel stomping/running noises from the the children who lived above me, at all hours.

I do buy my energy drinks by the case, I also occasionally substitute them with caffeine powder mixes which are basically nothing cost wise.

I'm very, very careful with my purchases and track my spending very closely. I don't spend money on anything unless I think it's actually worth it (long term). I even cut energy drinks for a few months at a point and figured it wasn't worth it. At a certain point, you are only destroying yourself if you deprive yourself of even "minor joys". Yes, I could save a few more pennies here or there, but I think I'm pretty close to the bare minimum.


If i wanted to just go at it, I have enough money saved that I could probably buy anything and everything I can think I want. I just don't want that much, which is why I'm saving so I can hopefully get a house or something which will give me more "safety". I'm simply making the point that even someone who "makes good money" and "doesn't spend frivolously" has to put a fair bit of time/effort into something as "basic" as owning a home.
 
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yeah, the problem starts to be that younger people especially do not make good money, maybe some of them also aren't great at spending it well.

given the anecdote above, I'm pretty convinced any "young workers" using vending machines nonstop and taking vacations to Europe gets a _lot_ of help from their parents. Either that or they are racking up debt and will pay later. I agree we shouldn't be giving children credit cards, but we do, and that's how the credit companies make their money. Maybe the same way alcohol/tobacco are 21+, so should things like credit cards, and student loans.

Back to my comment on "your generation took our future", how many of these traps existed when you were young? could you open lines of credit like that? were you essentially required (at least socially and for access to "the world") to keep a device in your pocket that spies on you, and makes fine tuned ads based on your behavior? Who made all of that stuff? It wasn't people "caring for the children".

Want to talk to your friends after school? Well the news says it's not safe to let your children outside, so you can stay home and use Facebook, where your mind is polluted beyond belief. Want a better future? yeah take out 80k in loans because it'll totally pay off.
 
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