Solar tax credit? Fair or unfair?

[chill633]

No, I don't get social security back.

People in lower income range get a great return on their contributions. Up to some low income level (maybe $30k/year), the benefits accrued are quite high. Above $30k to the current $168k maximum taxable income, taxes remain the same but much lower additional benefit is earned. That is how the government gets the money to pay for retirement of poor people. (That is also why people say if we just removed the income cap on social security taxes, the program would not be insolvent.)

To keep the math simple, let's assume zero inflation, zero interest on T-bills. So income, prices, benefits don't change due to inflation.

$168,000 income is the maximum that is taxes for social security.
$20,906 tax, 6.2% from each of employer and employee
35 years to earn maximum benefit
$731,274 paid in to social security.

$5108 maximum monthly benefit if you wait to age 70 before collecting.
12 months/year
$61,296 annual benefit.
78.4 years average life expectancy, 8.4 years of benefits collected.
$514,886 collected.

You get back just 70.4% of what you paid in. If you are high California income.
(by the way, $100,000/year is now considered low income in California due to cost of living.)

People earning $30k/year make out like a bandit in terms of return on their Social Security "investment"
Those of us with good incomes pay for that, and get screwed.

And that is if social security can pay out what they have been promising. The plan is to have spent down all their T-bills, run out of savings, the year I reach full retirement age. After that, benefits are to be cut to what comes in, so reduced to maybe 2/3 or 1/2 as much.



Yes, some are phased out. Average amount each of my dollars is taxed is less. But marginal taxes count.

If I earn one more dollar, pay the taxes taken out of my paycheck & in tax returns, and buy something at the local store, 57.1% goes to taxes. I get to spend 42.9 cents of that dollar.

But wait! I can get some of that money back!
If I just do what the government wants me to do, like install solar panels, then I receive 30% credit to reduce taxes?
But the power produced while I'm at work goes to PG&E for $0.02/kWh. That night, I buy power from PG&E for $0.40/kWh.

No, I don't want solar tax credits.
No, I don't want government provided products and services.
No, I don't want to pay the government thousands of dollars to be allowed to build on my land.
I want lower taxes, minimal services, no credits or deductions.
I want the government to only perform the functions it has been granted under the Constitution.

Social security is not an investment, it is insurance. Those are insurance premiums, not investment funds. Thinking of it as an investment is incorrect. You need to compare it to term life insurance premiums.

The official name is Old Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance program. (OASDI)

 

[Hedges]

Hey, no joke that's what the guys who are building are saying and NO one is listening.

AI will Kill us all in it's current structure starting as soon as two years.

Changes are rolling across this planet in exponential ways you and I can't imagine yet.
In other words hang on kiddos and buckle your seatbelts the rides gonna get pretty bumpy soon.
Yi Haaaa!
Let her rip
Tator Chip!

AI can kill you right now.
Through a proxy, your significant other:

MSN

 

[Hedges]

Social security is not an investment, it is insurance. Those are insurance premiums, not investment funds. Thinking of it as an investment is incorrect. You need to compare it to term life insurance premiums.

The official name is Old Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance program. (OASDI)

Insurance, a pretty good analogy. The stakes are in favor of the house.

But no, Social Security is neither investment nor insurance.
It is a tax. A tax on higher income people to pay for the retirement of lower income people.

Similarly "Obama Care" was not about care. It was not even really about insurance (premiums paid against risk of future loss).
Obama Care was a tax. A tax on the healthy to pay for care of those already sick.
It replaced the previous program of government paying hospitals to care for the indigent, instead requiring citizens to pay insurance companies to pay that.
So the government could spend the tax money it already received somewhere else, instead of giving it to hospitals.

 

[chill633]

Insurance, a pretty good analogy. The stakes are in favor of the house.

But no, Social Security is neither investment nor insurance.
It is a tax. A tax on higher income people to pay for the retirement of lower income people.

Similarly "Obama Care" was not about care. It was not even really about insurance (premiums paid against risk of future loss).
Obama Care was a tax. A tax on the healthy to pay for care of those already sick.
It replaced the previous program of government paying hospitals to care for the indigent, instead requiring citizens to pay insurance companies to pay that.
So the government could spend the tax money it already received somewhere else, instead of giving it to hospitals.

No, it isn't an analogy. It is a description of what it actually is. The odds are not in favor of the house with social security. You get back everything you paid in after 5 years. If you die before that, it goes to your surviving spouse or children. If you have neither, that stays in the social security general fund.

Considering social security was enacted when the average lifespan was much lower than it is today, that last bit doesn't really add any benefit to the house here.

Yes, it is paid for by a tax. And no, it isn't paid for by higher income people to cover lower income people. The amount of money you collect from social security is directly related to the amount of money you put in, and you have to have contributed minimally to even collect. Only put in a little, you're only going to get a little out. Don't put anything in, you ain't getting anything out.

Yes, it was designed with a current payer system. Meaning the current workers pay for the retired workers. That worked great when the current worker generation was the large generation paying for the smaller generation. Now that the baby boomers have retired, and genex and millennials are the smaller generations, the fun is being depleted.

That's the whole traditional American politician "we'll deal with that disaster when it happens, long after I've retired and it is someone else's problem" attitude.

 

[J.H.]

some taxpayers are claiming that they are not subject to federal income tax"

“And some people claim they are traveling , not driving…”

I love both of those phrases ……haaa….

I will leave all the legal thinking to yall,..

But….

I will say for sure ( a friend told me) , that if the Fed thinks you owe money…
for whatever reason …and you get called in to explain your logic for not paying them,
they can and will TAKE all your toys….

All of em…..

 

[Mattb4]

I have found the best way to avoid Fed taxes is to not make any income. Not all will choose that route. But it is legal.

 

[BarracudaBob]

The US Federal Government has become the high taxing authority and then redistributes the taxes back to the states, counties, and city's via grants. Also many other institutions and organizations that Doge has brought to light.

What would our forefathers think of this taxation without representation. Makes me want to burn some tea bags..

So working with the current system if I can get back just a little off of the huge amount that they take from me by following their rules I have zero guilt and don't see it as a handout.

Taking my money and sending it to Pakistan to do transgender studies really get my tea pot boiling!

 

[chill633]

I have found the best way to avoid Fed taxes is to not make any income. Not all will choose that route. But it is legal.

Interesting concept. Because you don't want to give them 30% you're willing to lose 100% by not making it at all. There's a reason not all choose that route -- you have to be so philosophically opposed to taxation you're willing to cut your own financial throat to prove a point.

 

[BentleyJ]

Interesting concept. Because you don't want to give them 30% you're willing to lose 100% by not making it at all. There's a reason not all choose that route -- you have to be so philosophically opposed to taxation you're willing to cut your own financial throat to prove a point.

You may be missing the point. I would suggest Mattb4 may be referring to a having a business where on paper expenses are almost equal to gross income so the NET TAXABLE is very low. He is probably not advocating living on the street. Just my 2 cents.

 

[chill633]

You may be missing the point. I would suggest Mattb4 may be referring to a having a business where on paper expenses are almost equal to gross income so the NET TAXABLE is very low. He is probably not advocating living on the street. Just my 2 cents.

"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands." -- Judge Learned Hand.

Amen

 

[Tulex]

You may be missing the point. I would suggest Mattb4 may be referring to a having a business where on paper expenses are almost equal to gross income so the NET TAXABLE is very low. He is probably not advocating living on the street. Just my 2 cents.

Kind of like cash businesses. Amazing how many people find a hole in their money bag on the way to the bank.

 

[Danke]

“And some people claim they are traveling , not driving…”

I love both of those phrases ……haaa….

False equivalency.

 

[J.H.]

False equivalency.

I totally agree … all I was saying ( and I have no first hand knowledge of anything of the sorts) ,is that if the MAN want you , he will plow you under and simply win through size and momentum.

I only see two ways to win ..as Mr Mattb4 accurately stated ..” appear poor as a church mouse “
No body will care about you…no body wants you …or anything you got..

OR ..

Be Godzilla , e.g. Gates, Zuck , Musk, Buffett , Clinton's, Trumps, Bushes …etc..
Then your team of attorneys and connections can make messin with you very difficult and costly.

The third way is to be a middle & upper middle class …Now we’re talking ..a sittin duck..

Plenty of goodies to extract and doesn’t have the finacial stength to fight back like Godzilla.
He will fold like a bad poker hand …

Since the days of the Roman Empire , the “Golden Rule “ is the plan of the kings and leaders.

( no , not the one we were taught as kids)

This one

He who holds the Gold , makes the rules…$……

 

[Hedges]

And no, it isn't paid for by higher income people to cover lower income people.

Yes it is.

The amount of money you collect from social security is directly related to the amount of money you put in, and you have to have contributed minimally to even collect.

No it isn't.

The money you collect is not directly proportional to the (inflation adjusted) money you put in.
Higher earners pay proportionately higher social security taxes (up to a maximum taxed income).
Higher earners receive progressively smaller social security benefits in proportion to the taxes they paid in.
People who earn up to $14,712 annually receive the highest social security benefit in proportion to their income and taxes. Earning at that (adjusted) rate for 35 years, they receive benefits equal to 90% of annual earnings.
Those who earn more and pay more in tax are the ones funding that lucrative retirement benefit.

How Retirement Benefits Are Calculated By Social Security

Social Security takes your 35 highest-income years and comes up with your average indexed monthly earnings (AIME). That's the basis for your earnings calculation.

www.aarp.org

"Throughout your working life, you accumulate an earnings record (sometimes called a work record). That’s the foundation the Social Security Administration uses to calculate your benefits, using a three-step process.

First, Social Security adjusts your earnings for historical changes in U.S. wages, takes your 35 best-paid years and produces what it calls your average indexed monthly earnings (AIME). Only income up to the maximum taxable earnings — the annually adjusted cap on how much of your earnings are subject to Social Security taxes — is counted. In 2025, that’s work income up to $176,100.

Second, they apply a formula to that monthly average to determine your primary insurance amount (PIA) — the monthly benefit you’re entitled to receive if you claim it at your full retirement age. That's 66 and 8 months for people born in 1958, 66 and 10 months for those born in 1959 and 67 for people born in 1960 or later.

The formula breaks down your average monthly wage into three parts. In 2025, it is:

• 90 percent of the first $1,226 of your AIME;
• plus 32 percent of any amount over $1,226 up to $7,391;
• plus 15 percent of any amount over $7,391.

The sum of those three figures is your PIA, also known as your full or basic retirement benefit. The sliding scale is designed to weight the benefit to help low-wage earners, who need retirement money the most."

 

[Hedges]

The US Federal Government has become the high taxing authority and then redistributes the taxes back to the states, counties, and city's via grants. Also many other institutions and organizations that Doge has brought to light.

What would our forefathers think of this taxation without representation. Makes me want to burn some tea bags..

So working with the current system if I can get back just a little off of the huge amount that they take from me by following their rules I have zero guilt and don't see it as a handout.

Taking my money and sending it to Pakistan to do transgender studies really get my tea pot boiling!

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

But since Congress was granted the power to tax, they have absolute authority to tell the state and the people what to do, under pain of having 100% of money taken away and not doled back out to them.

 

[glandpuck]

Ironic that the same people wailing about the end of life as we know it are always the NIMBYs.

Salton Sea lithium project gets judge's go-ahead, ending advocates' lawsuit

Social and environmental groups claimed the project could cause water and air problems not disclosed in an environmental impact report.

calmatters.org

Irrelevant. The Salton sea is in a desert of eastern Imperial and Riverside Counties, very sparsely populated and the land is being purchased at high prices for lithium mining. But to my knowledge, I don't think there is any production from that site yet. You could dig up the lithium, but then what are you going to do with it?

 

[HighDesertDrifter]

Irrelevant. The Salton sea is in a desert of eastern Imperial and Riverside Counties, very sparsely populated and the land is being purchased at high prices for lithium mining. But to my knowledge, I don't think there is any production from that site yet. You could dig up the lithium, but then what are you going to do with it?

Send it to a Chinese refinery?

 

[Luk88]

How are you managing a completely off grid solar solution for $10k?

You're going to be spending money on diesel for the generator that's how

There is one local youtuber here in Poland that is a big proponent of going 100% off grid (yes in our climate). He is victron installer and his personal project is fully off grid house system with over 150kWp of panels and several hundred kWh all in victron gear and pylontech batteries if I remember correctly. He said it will cost him $250k once he is done with it. He is still keeping a backup generator.

I did my system very cheaply. I don't remember the exact amount, but it's somewhere in the region of $13k. This includes 65kWh LFP, 27kW of inverters, 14kWp of ground mounted bifacial panels and a diesel backup generator.

However, I did do DIY batteries, I chose pretty cheap Chinese inverters and we have no tarrifs from China here.

I haven't gotten an euro cent if subsidy, because of the DIY route.

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

Irrelevant. The Salton sea is in a desert of eastern Imperial and Riverside Counties, very sparsely populated and the land is being purchased at high prices for lithium mining. But to my knowledge, I don't think there is any production from that site yet. You could dig up the lithium, but then what are you going to do with it?

I'm glad you googled Salton Sea. At least you know where it is now. Of course there is no production, environmental groups have had initial construction shut down. Berkshire Hathaway, the biggest player involved, pulled out last year because of the beaurocratic red tape and lawsuits.
There is no digging involved in this lithium extraction process.
Nevada's Silver Peak mine has been extracting lithium since 1960. 5000 tons per year, scheduled to double this year. I have no idea who they sell it to.

Silver Peak Mine the only source of lithium in U.S.

The Silver Peak Mine in Nevada (about halfway between Las Vegas and Carson City) is the only U.S. source of lithium.

www.mesabitribune.com

 

[justgary]

it is even lower if you don't include the portion of Medicare and Social Security that your employer pays. (No, if they weren't paying it to the gov't they wouldn't be giving it to you.)

So the employer share of Medicare and Social Security isn't a direct cost of employing you? Your paid time off is also a cost of employing you. People only look at their take-home pay and ignore the other benefits they get. Add all of those up and you get your true cost of employment.

As a self-employed individual, I pay both sides of the Medicare and Social Security taxes. If I didn't have to pay so much, I would lower my rates. The point is that all costs have to get baked into product prices. Costs that aren't there don't get baked in.

 

[45North]

There's an even bigger source of lithium in a volcano in N. Nevada.

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

There's an even bigger source of lithium in a volcano in N. Nevada.

Undoubtedly a hot topic.

 

[Tulex]

Undoubtedly a hot topic.

I erupted with laughter......

 

[glandpuck]

So the employer share of Medicare and Social Security isn't a direct cost of employing you? Your paid time off is also a cost of employing you. People only look at their take-home pay and ignore the other benefits they get. Add all of those up and you get your true cost of employment.

As a self-employed individual, I pay both sides of the Medicare and Social Security taxes. If I didn't have to pay so much, I would lower my rates. The point is that all costs have to get baked into product prices. Costs that aren't there don't get baked in.

Your comments are pretty good with the exception that you left out the benefits of being self employed. You know, like when you use postage from your business for your personal mail. Or you use the business copier for personal stuff. But you get it. Now a good accountant always helps to keep social security and Medicare taxes as low as possible. But for the person on a salary or hourly wages, you are basically screwed in the USA. Your body will break down long before you reach age 67-68 to collect the social security benefit and the Federal government continues to print so much money to auction it off to cover the debt that the purchasing power gets diminished much more than the rate of inflation that is published would lead you to believe. And now we are being lead into the fiscal darkness for anyone who is not worth a few hundred million.

 

[Zwy]

Your comments are pretty good with the exception that you left out the benefits of being self employed. You know, like when you use postage from your business for your personal mail. Or you use the business copier for personal stuff. But you get it.

I've been self employed for 38 years and it isn't as rosy as you make it sound. If I had to do it over again, I'd go work for someone else in a dick job getting bennies, paid vacation and a 401K with employer matching contributions.

I'm semi retired now and working over 60 hours per week. I cut back my hours from full time.

A few things about self employment. You actually get to see your children more when they are growing up. You don't "leave" for work at the start of the day and can take your children to work with you. You do get some tax benefits. My internet, phone and other things like vehicles are business expenses.

If I need to take a day off, I can schedule it in as I no longer have employees who require management or nothing gets done. Back then I was working 7 days a week.

People don't realize that the true cost of an employee is double their hourly pay on their paycheck.