Solar used to be real easy.

[pvgirl]

There are simple solutions out there you can go buy a solar power station bundle that includes everything in a simple to use setup, but your going to pay a premium for that, and it won't be as flexible as something you can put together yourself.

This forum tends to focus on the cheaper, more versatile solar equipment, which are often more complex to integrate, and may not be a fully polished product.

 

[Tulex]

right, of course i dont know everything, nobody does. but its very easy to hop on here and get some advice. point is this isnt difficult by any means.

Proper DIY, especially on the technical side, takes a combination of many factors. It comes much more easily for spatial thinkers with good common sense who are detail oriented. I have met a lot of people who don't have those qualities. People with some form of technical degree for example.

 

[Brucey]

right, of course i dont know everything, nobody does. but its very easy to hop on here and get some advice. point is this isnt difficult by any means.

Its easy to judge but even things like insulating sheets between cells, compression weren't fully understood a few years back. It just wasn't best practice like it is today.

 

[empowered]

Its easy to judge but even things like insulating sheets between cells, compression weren't fully understood a few years back. It just wasn't best practice like it is today.

i agree! youre making my point even stronger, lol. things are much easier now than they were before.

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

That’s because electrons have become woke. Less stable.

I tend to hold to the single electron theory and try to catch it before the rest of you. When your equipment malfunctions it's just me.

 

[Chispas]

For me, its just a question of investing the time to try & understand things. In a previous life, before becoming an arborist, my last job in industry was as a miller in a toolroom, some insanely complicated stuff, to actually execute, not understand. Ive been working through a AIO manual, helping out some friends & its really not that complicated, its just there are more layers involved & more time needed.
In the bad ole days SOC was determined by voltage from the charge controller, might as well have rolled the I ching. Now, there seems to be an obsession with monitoring.

 

[Mattb4]

i agree! youre making my point even stronger, lol. things are much easier now than they were before.

Some only appear easier. If you try to understand the reason and theory of how it all works (or not which is likely why you are even thinking about it) is where it becomes difficult.

 

[wwu123]

Fortunately, some things are still simple enough for me to use.

View attachment 314779
(I only used to design computers, as in full custom ASIC microprocessors. I never said I knew how to use the damn things.)

Well that one's so complicated, it has a turntable that could break, get off its track, etc!

Funny story, but my wife is from Japan, and first time her sister visited us from Tokyo some 20+ years ago, she thought our microwave was broken, because the turntable was "missing". She had just never in her life in Tokyo seen a microwave built without one built in before. But I remember there was a time you could buy a little battery-operated turntable to put in your microwave - you set a plate atop it, the weight would trigger the switch that would start your food rotating - ah, going down that road of complexity again!

 

[Tulex]

Some only appear easier. If you try to understand the reason and theory of how it all works (or not which is likely why you are even thinking about it) is where it becomes difficult.

Exactly. It's no different than computers. When I got into computers in the 80's, anyone you talked to who was also into computers all understood the components. You had to fine tune drivers and settings. Now, you just plug a pc in and it does everything for you. Most people don't have a clue what's going on with a pc. That's today's AIO. I didn't have to know a thing. Mount it to the wall, follow the wiring diagrams, use the online panel calculator. Yes, I did follow this site for more details of what would be ideal for me, but it's mostly plug and play.

 

[SunDave]

It as got to the point (for me) it is hard to keep up anymore. Just when I think I have something figured out they change the thing, obsolete it or bring in a new replacement that has different operating modes.

Hard to believe the amount of change.

Good points, and true of many industries.

People that say that have less of a problem keeping up (I would include myself in that for now) have some general tech skills. I would agree that the out of the box experience is worse than it used to be.

Some examples:

• Engineers used to design in switches, or at least an interface, but now that is getting cut for cost savings in favor of bluetooth or web access. It can be very useful to view stats and make changes, but it was not added in addition to basic functionality. It was added instead of basic function on the front panel.
• Documentation is difficult since the product does 10 different things. There are sub modes to modes. This is a general trend in a lot of industries as well. We just signed for a new timeclock program at work, but they also want to be the HR program, and payroll, among other things. No one wants to provide their service well. They want to provide every service, but in a half-baked fashion.

Other reasons I see:

• The products will change whether they need it or not. Again, common in other industries. TVs were flat for a while because that was cool, then they were curved again, then flat because curved is out. None of that was a fix to a huge issue, but rather a way to signify which products were old and which were new. We will likely see similar things in solar over time. From component, to AIO, back to component or mids for example. New is cool and old is not is what marketing would like you to believe.

I know people rag on your post for not keeping up with the times or whatever, but just because general progress has happened in some areas does not mean it continues in a good direction. Cars, planes, the grid, and other examples have taken general quality dives over time. They usually recover, but there are people stuck with the lemons in between.

What is easy for some is difficult for others. Some feel the need for the newest, some like ol' reliable (or not so reliable) without all the new features. Neither is wrong. To each their own.

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

If one is lucky, you:
1. pull a device out of a box
2. install it intuitively ... plug things in, turn it on, and go.

If there is a problem at your end (you didn't rtfm, you didn't turn it on, etc.), you call tech support, and they walk you through it, and you can understand them. Remember, you didn't rtfm, so you go to their website, and the tech support info is right there (not buried at the bottom of a page, not forbidden in T&C's, etc.)

If the problem is on their end (unit was first off the line on Monday morning), you call tech support, and they help you repair it or they rush another unit out to you. They don't say "wrap it back up, send it to us, and we'll determine if you broke it ... if we think you broke it, we'll charge you for the entire process". Wait a few days while we work thru all of that ...

This is "1.0", or, as close to perfection as you can get.

Nowadays, you:
1. pull it out of the box, but you can't install it, because it needs a "vendor code", an internet connection, and it knows it isn't being installed by an electrician.
2. there is no manual, because they are trying to save trees, even though they send scads of junk paper mail to you. That's OK, because you can't read the manual, or it doesn't really help you get the thing going, or ...
3. you finally get it turned on, but it needs a firmware update; you finally get the firmware update done, and that bricks it ... you want to send it back at this point, but that requires the exact same packaging it came in, which you ripped apart and threw away just trying to get it open.
4. once you've removed it from the packaging, it's "installed", meaning you can't return it, or we charge you a restocking fee. And a fee to ship it, and ....

Most of this you don't figure out until you finally get around to reading the fine print, at which point you realize you've financed sending their kids through college by buying this thing, but you have about zero rights in resolving these issues, all because you signed their shrink-wrap T&C's by opening, clicking through, etc.

We've moved from 1.0 to 0.25 for most everything ...

Yeah ... things have gotten easier ...

 

[Zwy]

I take it you have not read some of the recent AIO manuals?

I sure have. The settings are pretty self explanatory for the most important settings with an occasional clear as mud translation for minor settings. Those occasional settings can be quickly determined by contacting support or trying the different settings.

Heck just trying to figure out what the various connections and cables to wire to the box,

2 battery cables, AC output and an EGC. AC input is optional.

which protocol to select,

No need, run open loop and you don't need a protocol.

should you select wifi,

No wifi, use SA with the needed cable. Just plug it in.

bluetooth

Again, no need, use SA with the needed cable. Just plug it in.

do you need CT's

No need for CT's when running system as off grid.

SPD's,

SPD's were always part of safety

RSD's

We don't need no stinking RSD's

with a ground mount.

and whatabout STD's?

You must really love your whore inverter.

Never heard of STD's on an inverter and have no need for any. My wife might have something to say about it.

It all starts to blur as my mind reaches overload state.

That is why you keep it simple. Ground mounts with SPD's, proper grounding, run charging as open loop and don't backfeed to grid. Batteries with proper fusing in place.

Quit getting caught up in the latest and greatest. Learn to make and store PV energy.

There are those that want all the automations, new gadgets, latest equipment. I just want to generate power and use it. I keep my thoughts focused on simplification, not complexity.

It isn't the popular view in this thread, I'm not here for a popularity contest. I noticed those who want all the techno crap are the same ones pulling out fully capable equipment and install the latest and greatest.

They probably have been married 3 times too, have moved into different houses multiple times. The never happy with what I have mindset. And usually broke or run on a large negative balance sheet. If you take offense to these few lines, can't help ya. I tell it like it is sometimes.

 

[Mattb4]

I sure have. The settings are pretty self explanatory for the most important settings with an occasional clear as mud translation for minor settings. Those occasional settings can be quickly determined by contacting support or trying the different settings.



...

Ah yes. Contacting support. Where I am told to make a video of an already cleared fault code. Make a video? I am from the era that Kodak Instamatics and Polaroid cameras was the latest and greatest thing. Not to forget to mention that China support is from a 1/2 day different timezone. Not quick by any means to have support respond and totally ignore what I asked about or for.

But if it bothers you that I am/was making a light hearted Thread about the changing solar progress of things please realize I was not doing so to attack you in any way.

 

[Zwy]

Ah yes. Contacting support. Where I am told to make a video of an already cleared fault code. Make a video? I am from the era that Kodak Instamatics and Polaroid cameras was the latest and greatest thing. Not to forget to mention that China support is from a 1/2 day different timezone. Not quick by any means to have support respond and totally ignore what I asked about or for.

I've only contacted support a few times since becoming a member here and building my first system. Signature Solar with the disastrous 6500EX inverters, the problem with the EG4 MPPT's burning up the connector (see a pattern?) and SRNE about the setting for #68 N-G bonding because the early manuals were not clear in the translation.

SRNE returned a response within 12 hours. Sig Solar, well it sometimes took 3 weeks.

But if it bothers you that I am/was making a light hearted Thread about the changing solar progress of things please realize I was not doing so to attack you in any way.

No offense taken on my point of view. I have to work with complex systems on a daily basis and also learn how those systems operate and function. I see the failures due to the complexity of the system and the troubleshooting involved. I realized long ago this is not sustainable long term as new systems have to be constantly learned. Specialization is a requirement long term.

I certainly don't have time to deal with complexity when it comes to generating my own power. I want it as simple as possible, not only for less failure points but also for troubleshooting. I have found what I have built has been very reliable and doesn't require my ongoing attention. Build it, use it and occasionally perform some maintenance such as checking connections. I haven't been in the basement of my house for several months. That is where my house system is located. I don't have a need to go there. It just works.

 

[SunDave]

I like most of what you say Zwy, but just plug in solar assistant is a bit of a stretch for non-techie people. I believe that is part of what Matt was getting at. For some of us it's just plug in solar assistant, but in the real world that means:

• Research solar assistant, and if it is compatible with your devices
• Determine if you want to get software to put on a device, or purchase it pre-installed
• Get a login for the solar assistant site
• Determine the cables, and device you need, along with ethernet cables, etc. from amazon, and get both shopping carts loaded up and purchased.
• Wait for delivery
• Once it is delivered, refresh your mind as to how all this goes together
• Mess around with it until you get it, figuring out the little nuances like having to disconnect every time you add a device
• Verify the data is correct
• Document the logins for the Solar Assistant Website, and the Interface itself.

Likely more steps, and that is just one "step". I'm sure these can be picked apart to some extent, but this is just to illustrate the learning curve for those new to solar, vs. us old-hats.

Not looking to pick your view apart, but rather looking to see it from both sides.

 

[efficientPV]

But that doesn't take you away from being able to, say, restore a 1969 McCormick 434 tractor and having fun doing it. You can still hook up a panel to a lead acid battery and call it a day. Just because others don't, doesn't mean you can't.

I never said it wasn't still fun. Just lament the days when solar was the domain of real men before it became so pedestrian.

It's like when the trucks showed up with 14 yards of concrete. One of the drivers looked at me and my wife with no other help in sight. He then asked. Do you know what you are doing or did you just watch a program on TV.

 

[timselectric]

If you want to live on the bleeding edge of technology, you will bleed.
K.I.S.S. is my preferred choice.

 

[SunDave]

This forum is awesome, and it is hard not to get sidetracked into other people's comments. I'll restrain myself from going 3 different directions, just this once...

 

[ScottyWI]

I like the tech we have now. I first wanted to install solar ~13 yrs ago, but there wasn't a great spot to put panels at the time. Minus 3 trees and a few grand later, and I finally had a spot to put them.

I'm glad I "had to" wait until now. I never wanted to run a bunch of 12V lead acid batteries. Now we have 48V LiFePO4 at what I consider a good price as well.

Solar panels seem much better now too. I don't even remember seeing bifacial back then. From what I remember I would have been getting 200-300W panels back then. Now my panels are 400W and up to 500 w/bifacial gain. I believe you can go even bigger, but physically I don't want giant 100x50" panels or whatever.

Only thing I can think of that was better in the past is higher pay rate for back-feeding

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

It is a certainty that nothing is certain. ~Ancient Paradox

 

[ScottyWI]

I think its still easy, there are just ways that could be difficult now, but only if you Choose those ways

 

[NC_hydro]

Solar has gotten easier and cheaper. End of story

 

[Mattb4]

Solar has gotten easier and cheaper. End of story

A cliff hanger ending?

Will our intrepid hero rescue the fair inverter from a horrible fate at the hands of the evil user? Will the sun rise tomorrow and recharge the batteries? Will TOU be usable? All this and more on our next Thread here at the same Forum.

 

[Hedges]

I love Hedges microwave above with the knobs, as an example of a device that internally is rather complicated and dangerous, but on the outside presents the simplest interface possible.

For example, that microwave might have an RS-485 MODbus port on the back to override the knobs on the front and a fully-defined ICD for communication. Or maybe a Bluetooth app. Just don’t force people to use the complexity. There are now devices you must setup with Bluetooth or WiFi and a janky app from China, and they won’t function until you do. Bad mojo.

These (I just bought a couple more) actually have mechanical timers.
The microwave cavity oscillator itself I don't really understand, but has been around decades.

Another one I got for tenants does have a clock that has to be set before it will function. Spin a knob and push. That one has quartz lamps as well to brown. Bakes a whole 3 1/2 lb. chicken crispy in 20 minutes. But at least it has one pushbutton "+ 30 seconds"

I did put in a Moen faucet with motion sensor. Thought that was just a convenience feature in addition to mechanical/hydraulic hand valve, but turns out it is fly by wire. And I have to read the manual each time I change batteries to disable the front sensor aim where may hands are over the sink.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Moen-Delaney-with-MotionSense-Spot-Resist-Stainless-1-handle-Pull-down-Kitchen-Faucet/999930542

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

"My new toilet is so bleeding edge I can wipe my ass from a Chinese server while I'm in Bermuda."

"Isn't your ass with you in Bermuda?"

"Yeah, but it's the latest tech".