SolarEdge Daytime Solar Options during power outtage?
- Thread starter DelcoMade
- Start date
darkskies
New Member
LG battery (which is second one, and about 4 months old) shows an error (69) and comm failure. SolarEdge had installer reset inverter to factory settings, but that did not help. Support wants installer to RMA the battery (again). Personally, I think there is some compatibility issue with firmware between inverter and battery, as both my batteries were working fine beforehand.
External relay was bad, and replaced.The external relay was then (temporarily) reconfigured so that grid holds relay open. When grid goes out, the relay closes and that turns on the generator. We were able to test a grid outage and verified generator ran. We also manually started the generator with grid (and PV) working to ensure system continued to operate, sending PV to house and grid. The inverter shows a fault because both the ATS and generator relays in the BUI are activated during the test. Clears, once test is done.
Once battery is replaced, the external relay will be reconfigured so that the inverter, via the BUI will signal the generator to run when the inverter reports that the battery is below the set threshold (20%).
So, will be a month or so, before we get battery and can continue to test this out. I'm going to track inverter and LG battery versions before/after.
External relay was bad, and replaced.The external relay was then (temporarily) reconfigured so that grid holds relay open. When grid goes out, the relay closes and that turns on the generator. We were able to test a grid outage and verified generator ran. We also manually started the generator with grid (and PV) working to ensure system continued to operate, sending PV to house and grid. The inverter shows a fault because both the ATS and generator relays in the BUI are activated during the test. Clears, once test is done.
Once battery is replaced, the external relay will be reconfigured so that the inverter, via the BUI will signal the generator to run when the inverter reports that the battery is below the set threshold (20%).
So, will be a month or so, before we get battery and can continue to test this out. I'm going to track inverter and LG battery versions before/after.
Quattrohead
Emperor Of Solar
Are you the only person in the world running this setup? Sure sounds like your beta testing it for them.
I have found a couple of others. They would never say how the BUI worked with direct connection until the latest application note that released after April. I am about ready to take my Generac ATS out of the loop and go direct after I get a little more info.
darkskies
New Member
No schematic or diagram. It connects to the main panel (tied into a two poll breaker - not sure if to detect if power or not), the BUI (to connect to some signaling outputs?), and the generator (to signal it to turn on/off).
I know that he temporarily moved the one relay sensor wire from the connector in the middle of the BUI, to one of the grid inputs so that, for now, the relay can detect if power loss and run the generator.
If I get a chance (maybe over the weekend) I can take the cover off the junction box that the relay is connected to, and try to figure out the wiring there.
The battery is the 16kWh LG RESU PRIME battery.
Is your Generac a Guardian? What controller is on it? Is it digital or no? Maybe send me a pic of the generator control panel and the old transfer switch and the relay and connections. I can figure out how they did it. My concern was how they keep the battery charger going without the Generac transfer switch in the loop.
darkskies
New Member
It's a guardian, with a digital control panel, Wi-Fi, etc. Model is G0071710. Not ATS now, because...
Original design was to have inverter, battery, and BackUp Interface to provide whole house backup and generator integration. After getting all the needed components in 2021-2022 (pandemic caused delays with generator and battery, we found out that the generator integration had the caveat that it was dependent on "required inverter firmware", which was not available.
As a workaround, my installer put in a 100A sub-panel with ATS to allow the generator to power critical circuits. I've been nagging SolarEdge about the firmware for two years, of which each release seems to add more support. However, in May, when we had our inverter updated to the 14.4 kW unit, and were having an issue with it working with the LG battery (our first RMA), the LG support guy told my installer that the integration does work now.
So, this week, my installer tried the integration, and removed the ATS, moved the circuits back to the main panel, and added this relay to a junction box that is connected to the main panel via double pole breaker, connected to the backup interface, and connected to the generator (I think it is a signalling and power to generator to charge battery). The signalling from the generator (indicating it is running and would have controlled the ATS) is dead-ended and not used.
So, there is no ATS now. I was told that the way it works is that, when the inverter detects that the battery is below selected threshold (20%), it will signal to the BUI, which in turn will cause the relay to trigger the generator to turn on and power the whole house and charge the battery via the BUI. Once the battery is charged (to what level?) the inverter will signal the BUI to turn off the generator (via the relay), and it will run off battery/PV.
They were able to get that working and demonstrate with a loss of grid, the generator would run. Could not test battery depletion, because the PV was generating more power than we needed and battery was fully charged. Of course, there was an fault the next day (coincidentally, when the generator was doing a weekly exercise run), and we ended up with a relay that bad (so generator wouldn't turn off) and then some issue with battery communication and firmware issue. Could not get battery to stay up, even after factory reset of inverter and re-download of firmware.
I'll try to get a picture (which won't help much) and take a look at the relay wiring).
Original design was to have inverter, battery, and BackUp Interface to provide whole house backup and generator integration. After getting all the needed components in 2021-2022 (pandemic caused delays with generator and battery, we found out that the generator integration had the caveat that it was dependent on "required inverter firmware", which was not available.
As a workaround, my installer put in a 100A sub-panel with ATS to allow the generator to power critical circuits. I've been nagging SolarEdge about the firmware for two years, of which each release seems to add more support. However, in May, when we had our inverter updated to the 14.4 kW unit, and were having an issue with it working with the LG battery (our first RMA), the LG support guy told my installer that the integration does work now.
So, this week, my installer tried the integration, and removed the ATS, moved the circuits back to the main panel, and added this relay to a junction box that is connected to the main panel via double pole breaker, connected to the backup interface, and connected to the generator (I think it is a signalling and power to generator to charge battery). The signalling from the generator (indicating it is running and would have controlled the ATS) is dead-ended and not used.
So, there is no ATS now. I was told that the way it works is that, when the inverter detects that the battery is below selected threshold (20%), it will signal to the BUI, which in turn will cause the relay to trigger the generator to turn on and power the whole house and charge the battery via the BUI. Once the battery is charged (to what level?) the inverter will signal the BUI to turn off the generator (via the relay), and it will run off battery/PV.
They were able to get that working and demonstrate with a loss of grid, the generator would run. Could not test battery depletion, because the PV was generating more power than we needed and battery was fully charged. Of course, there was an fault the next day (coincidentally, when the generator was doing a weekly exercise run), and we ended up with a relay that bad (so generator wouldn't turn off) and then some issue with battery communication and firmware issue. Could not get battery to stay up, even after factory reset of inverter and re-download of firmware.
I'll try to get a picture (which won't help much) and take a look at the relay wiring).
darkskies
New Member
SolarEdge official position to customers is that it isn't working yet, but will be in near future (been saying that for a year). The installer is seeing more screens showing info for this, and the LG support guy says it is working now. We are likely doing unofficial beta testing.
What I'm concerned about is that we've had two LG batteries that ran flawlessly, and are all of a sudden bricks, after updating the inverter to larger unit (same family). SolarEdge is quick to just RMA it (instead of root cause things), but I think there is some firmware version issue between the inverter and battery.
When the inverter was updated, the F/W was also updated to 4.17.221. That's when we had a battery issue. With the replacement battery, the battery F/W was 1.2.18 (don't know what it was before). This week, when they did reconfiguration, the inverter version is now 4.18.32, and the battery, now failed, has 1.2.16 and that is what it was trying to install.
I don't know if it is trying to go to 1.2.16 and then step up to 1.2.18 and for some reason 4.17.221 and 1.2.16 don't play well together or what. Just my conjecture.
darkskies
New Member
I looked at the wiring, however it was reconfigured to just run the generator as I do not have a working battery.
Essentially, there is a two pole 15 amp breaker in the main panel, which is connected to the normally open contacts of a pair of relays in the relay unit being used. These are connected to the generators line sensing connections. The coil of the relay is connected to neutral and one of the grid line inputs so that it energizes the relay and allows the generator to sense the AC power from the panel (both legs).
When the grid goes down, the relay is no longer energized, the generator no longer senses power, and runs. Even though the generator is providing power to the panel, meaning the lines from the panel have power, the deenergized coil prevents the generator from sensing power and turning off.
I think with the battery installed, he had the lines from the main panel connected to the normally closed contacts, so that the generator would detect power whether on grid, PV, or battery. When the battery gets to lower limit (20% in my case), the inverter signals the BUI and it uses the dry contact connections to energize the coil and break the connection to the generator, causing it to turn on.
I didn't get to see the wiring with the battery working and I didn't get to ask about how/when the inverter signals to the BUI, when the battery is charged.
Also, I'm not sure how the dry contact works. Is it open, and then closed based on on the signal from the inverter to cause the generator to run? If there is no battery or inverter power, for some reason, would the contact be open, meaning the generator would run (circuit closed but no power sensed)? If so, once the generator turns on, won't it sense its own AC from the main panel and shut back off? Or would the inverter come up enough to close the contact, so that the generator does not sense power?
Maybe the expectation is that this condition would not happen (not have a battery fall so low that the inverter looses power).
Essentially, there is a two pole 15 amp breaker in the main panel, which is connected to the normally open contacts of a pair of relays in the relay unit being used. These are connected to the generators line sensing connections. The coil of the relay is connected to neutral and one of the grid line inputs so that it energizes the relay and allows the generator to sense the AC power from the panel (both legs).
When the grid goes down, the relay is no longer energized, the generator no longer senses power, and runs. Even though the generator is providing power to the panel, meaning the lines from the panel have power, the deenergized coil prevents the generator from sensing power and turning off.
I think with the battery installed, he had the lines from the main panel connected to the normally closed contacts, so that the generator would detect power whether on grid, PV, or battery. When the battery gets to lower limit (20% in my case), the inverter signals the BUI and it uses the dry contact connections to energize the coil and break the connection to the generator, causing it to turn on.
I didn't get to see the wiring with the battery working and I didn't get to ask about how/when the inverter signals to the BUI, when the battery is charged.
Also, I'm not sure how the dry contact works. Is it open, and then closed based on on the signal from the inverter to cause the generator to run? If there is no battery or inverter power, for some reason, would the contact be open, meaning the generator would run (circuit closed but no power sensed)? If so, once the generator turns on, won't it sense its own AC from the main panel and shut back off? Or would the inverter come up enough to close the contact, so that the generator does not sense power?
Maybe the expectation is that this condition would not happen (not have a battery fall so low that the inverter looses power).
darkskies
New Member
Yeah, frustrated again. It's been almost 2 weeks and my installer still hasn't gotten LG to start the RMA process.
Quattrohead
Emperor Of Solar
LG (and Samsung) are a horrible company to deal with, that is the only reason I never buy their appliances.
I really don't understand what could have happened. Did you say you had the LG Prime battery? i have not worked with those yet.Yeah, frustrated again. It's been almost 2 weeks and my installer still hasn't gotten LG to start the RMA process.
darkskies
New Member
Yes, LG Prime RESU 16kWh battery. It worked fine after inverter upgrade, until the generator did it's weekly exercise run the next day after upgrade (coincidence?). The generator did not turn off at the end of the exercise (ran for about 2 hours, until I got home). Turned generator off, and then back to auto, but it came on again. Shut off generator, did a restart of the inverter (DC off, AC off, AC on, DC on), and inverter came back up fine. However, during the start up the battery breaker tripped. Inverter was showing a battery comm error (#?), and a battery (69) error.
Installer on-site had determined that the relay was defective, which is why the generator always came on. They worked with SolarEdge support to try to get things working. They had tried a factory reset of the inverter, to no avail. In the end, SolarEdge told them to do an RMA of the battery with LG.
I had heard, several days later, that the installer submitted the paperwork, but had not heard back from LG yet. More that a week has past, and I'm still waiting to hear from installer about the RMA.
The only other thing I noticed was that in all this process, the battery was trying to install firmware 1.2.16. I'm not sure what version was on there before with that battery, but the previous battery, back in May, had 1.2.18, before it was replaced. Also, I think when the new inverter was installed, the firmware was updated to the latest 4.18.32, whereas the older inverter, just before replacement had 4.17.221. My understanding is that they have to manually update the version using setApp (it does not get updated automatically). I'm wondering if there is some incompatibility issue with the firmware on the battery and on the inverter, but that's just a guess.
Installer on-site had determined that the relay was defective, which is why the generator always came on. They worked with SolarEdge support to try to get things working. They had tried a factory reset of the inverter, to no avail. In the end, SolarEdge told them to do an RMA of the battery with LG.
I had heard, several days later, that the installer submitted the paperwork, but had not heard back from LG yet. More that a week has past, and I'm still waiting to hear from installer about the RMA.
The only other thing I noticed was that in all this process, the battery was trying to install firmware 1.2.16. I'm not sure what version was on there before with that battery, but the previous battery, back in May, had 1.2.18, before it was replaced. Also, I think when the new inverter was installed, the firmware was updated to the latest 4.18.32, whereas the older inverter, just before replacement had 4.17.221. My understanding is that they have to manually update the version using setApp (it does not get updated automatically). I'm wondering if there is some incompatibility issue with the firmware on the battery and on the inverter, but that's just a guess.
darkskies
New Member
This is the unit...
Essentially, it is a pair of relays, of which each can operate as N.O. or N.C.
Currently, because the battery is disabled, it is set to be N.O. for each leg of 120V from main panel (and goes to the power sense on the generator). The control for the coil is connected to one of the grid lines. If power from grid is lost, the connection relay opens, and generator runs. When grid is back, it switches back to grid/PV. It is set this way, only because the battery is not operational.
Before, they told me it was set to N.C., but I'm not sure exactly how they had it wired. I think they had it set up so that the dry contact on the BUI would close, if battery went below 20% and no grid?, which would cause the generator to run and power the panel and recharge the battery. I don't know what battery threshold would close the contact and go back to battery/PV/grid.
Nor do I know how it handles the edge case where the battery is dead for some reason and the grid is out. The contact would be closed, but no voltage at the generator sense wires, so generator would run. But, then there would be voltage at the generator sense lines (from the generator, through the main panel) and I would think the generator would stop. Unless the inverter could boot up, determine that battery was low, and have enough power to signal to close the dry contact on the BUI? I'm not sure the inverter could startup that quickly (unless they signal the dry contact first thing?). All conjecture, of course.
I didn't get to talk to the installer about that edge case and how it would be handled - and whether or not my understand of the wiring was correct (other than I know they run it N.C.).
Right now, I'm just trying to get the RMA'ed battery so that they'll come out and connect it back up the way they had previously done. In isntaller is not very responsive (frustrates me to no end). After emailing/calling them about 10 times over two weeks, I finally found out Friday afternoon, that LG is processing the RMA and will be sending tracking info next week (I was told by the installer that LG said they have switched over to a new system and were slow in processing RMAs as a result).
So, two weeks have passed and LG is just starting the process to send a battery. A much slower response than last time, when the battery was delivered in about 2.5 weeks (of course it took the installer a month to come out to install ).
Essentially, it is a pair of relays, of which each can operate as N.O. or N.C.
Currently, because the battery is disabled, it is set to be N.O. for each leg of 120V from main panel (and goes to the power sense on the generator). The control for the coil is connected to one of the grid lines. If power from grid is lost, the connection relay opens, and generator runs. When grid is back, it switches back to grid/PV. It is set this way, only because the battery is not operational.
Before, they told me it was set to N.C., but I'm not sure exactly how they had it wired. I think they had it set up so that the dry contact on the BUI would close, if battery went below 20% and no grid?, which would cause the generator to run and power the panel and recharge the battery. I don't know what battery threshold would close the contact and go back to battery/PV/grid.
Nor do I know how it handles the edge case where the battery is dead for some reason and the grid is out. The contact would be closed, but no voltage at the generator sense wires, so generator would run. But, then there would be voltage at the generator sense lines (from the generator, through the main panel) and I would think the generator would stop. Unless the inverter could boot up, determine that battery was low, and have enough power to signal to close the dry contact on the BUI? I'm not sure the inverter could startup that quickly (unless they signal the dry contact first thing?). All conjecture, of course.
I didn't get to talk to the installer about that edge case and how it would be handled - and whether or not my understand of the wiring was correct (other than I know they run it N.C.).
Right now, I'm just trying to get the RMA'ed battery so that they'll come out and connect it back up the way they had previously done. In isntaller is not very responsive (frustrates me to no end). After emailing/calling them about 10 times over two weeks, I finally found out Friday afternoon, that LG is processing the RMA and will be sending tracking info next week (I was told by the installer that LG said they have switched over to a new system and were slow in processing RMAs as a result).
So, two weeks have passed and LG is just starting the process to send a battery. A much slower response than last time, when the battery was delivered in about 2.5 weeks (of course it took the installer a month to come out to install
).
Quattrohead
Emperor Of Solar
DPDT relay with a 24/120v coil. 10A 240v contacts.
So how would you wire this so that a two wire start caontact closure from the Backup Interface would start an older whole home Generac 16kw?
darkskies
New Member
This is the wiring I currently have (note: It starts generator, when there is loss of grid power - not based on battery)...
I'm GUESSING that for battery use, they have the relays set for N.C. and white/black connected to one of the main panel hot wires, and the white/yellow connected to one of the dry contact connections, where the other side of the dry connection is connected to neutral (as shown currently).
Normally, the coil has power from the main panel, when battery hits 20%, the inverter signals the BUI to open the contact, causing the generator sense lines to lose power and turn the generator on. I'm not sure how they had the dry contact wired, though the white (neutral) connection was not changed, when they set up the current configuration.
I'm GUESSING that for battery use, they have the relays set for N.C. and white/black connected to one of the main panel hot wires, and the white/yellow connected to one of the dry contact connections, where the other side of the dry connection is connected to neutral (as shown currently).
Normally, the coil has power from the main panel, when battery hits 20%, the inverter signals the BUI to open the contact, causing the generator sense lines to lose power and turn the generator on. I'm not sure how they had the dry contact wired, though the white (neutral) connection was not changed, when they set up the current configuration.
darkskies
New Member
Well, LG is sending the replacement battery. Should be here 12/5, and hopefully, I won't have to wait too long for my installer to get out here and install it. I'll be able to get to see the actual wiring used on the relay until at that time. I want to ask the installer about how that will work for the edge case of the battery going dead (low enough not to power the inverter to signal the dry contacts).
Fingers crossed that this will work. I'm still not convinced that there isn't some incompatibility between the battery and inverter firmware.
Fingers crossed that this will work. I'm still not convinced that there isn't some incompatibility between the battery and inverter firmware.
darkskies
New Member
Battery arrived Wednesday, and installer came yesterday to install the battery. They opened the box and LG had sent a 10kwh and not the 16 kwh battery! So, my installer is now working on contacting LG about the SNAFU.
One good thing is that I didn't talk to the installer about the relay. I guess it all depends on the generator used, and in my case, with a Generac, which has a 3-wire sensing circuit, a relay is needed so that the dry contact on the BUI can open the relay to tell the generator to come on, when the inverter detects that the battery has fallen below the desired limit (20% charge in my case). I guess with other generators, this relay is not needed.
I imagine it will be several weeks, before we get the right replacement battery.
One good thing is that I didn't talk to the installer about the relay. I guess it all depends on the generator used, and in my case, with a Generac, which has a 3-wire sensing circuit, a relay is needed so that the dry contact on the BUI can open the relay to tell the generator to come on, when the inverter detects that the battery has fallen below the desired limit (20% charge in my case). I guess with other generators, this relay is not needed.
I imagine it will be several weeks, before we get the right replacement battery.
darkskies
New Member
Update: 16kWh battery arrived last Friday, and install came today to swap out the "failed" battery, and switch the relay to N.C. The firmware in the inverter and battery were updated to the latest (there was a Nov 2023 release).
For now, everything is working, battery is charging (even though it was very cloudy and rainy today), no errors showing from inverter, everything is talking to one another and to SolarEdge monitoring, and they were able to simulate a grid outage, by using the disconnect on the BackUp Interface. Not identical to grid outage, but at least showed that it would switch to battery, and then generator and the battery was being charged.
I'll have to see what happens when there is a long outage (we had a 6 hour outage last week due to a storm, but everything wasn't set up) and see it run on battery/solar, until the battery hits 20%, and then see if the generator comes on and recharges the battery. Hopefully that won't be anytime soon!
I also want to see what happens Tuesday, when the generator comes on for a weekly exercise. Maybe a coincidence, but the last time, the system failure happened right when the generator was exercising.
Fingers crossed, hoping that everything is operational now.
For now, everything is working, battery is charging (even though it was very cloudy and rainy today), no errors showing from inverter, everything is talking to one another and to SolarEdge monitoring, and they were able to simulate a grid outage, by using the disconnect on the BackUp Interface. Not identical to grid outage, but at least showed that it would switch to battery, and then generator and the battery was being charged.
I'll have to see what happens when there is a long outage (we had a 6 hour outage last week due to a storm, but everything wasn't set up) and see it run on battery/solar, until the battery hits 20%, and then see if the generator comes on and recharges the battery. Hopefully that won't be anytime soon!
I also want to see what happens Tuesday, when the generator comes on for a weekly exercise. Maybe a coincidence, but the last time, the system failure happened right when the generator was exercising.
Fingers crossed, hoping that everything is operational now.
darkskies
New Member
So far battery is working, no breaker tripping on battery module, and no problems when the generator ran on its weekly test run (apparently was a coincidence last time and a faulty relay).
It is the same configuration, and the relay is still in place, but he modified the wiring that I showed in my diagram previously, so that the relay is normally closed, and instead of being de-energized by the loss of grid power, it is energized by the dry contact on the BackUp Interface.
The expected operation is... power failure... runs on solar and battery. When battery hits 20%, the inverter signals the BUI to energize the relay, which will break the connection to the A.C. sense of the generator. Generator will turn on, power the house and recharge the battery. I'm not sure what level the battery will get to, such that the inverter will tell the BUI to turn off the dry contact, causing the generator to stop and power to resume from solar/battery.
We haven't had a power outage (yet) to test the system running on battery and switching to generator. It's early in the season, so I may get that chance to see. There isn't really a way to simulate an outage with this setup.
I'm just happy that the inverter and battery are up and working, firmware is up to date, and we're getting some use of the battery (been pretty cloudy for a while). I'll post, if I get an outage and I get to see the full operation.
It is the same configuration, and the relay is still in place, but he modified the wiring that I showed in my diagram previously, so that the relay is normally closed, and instead of being de-energized by the loss of grid power, it is energized by the dry contact on the BackUp Interface.
The expected operation is... power failure... runs on solar and battery. When battery hits 20%, the inverter signals the BUI to energize the relay, which will break the connection to the A.C. sense of the generator. Generator will turn on, power the house and recharge the battery. I'm not sure what level the battery will get to, such that the inverter will tell the BUI to turn off the dry contact, causing the generator to stop and power to resume from solar/battery.
We haven't had a power outage (yet) to test the system running on battery and switching to generator. It's early in the season, so I may get that chance to see. There isn't really a way to simulate an outage with this setup.
I'm just happy that the inverter and battery are up and working, firmware is up to date, and we're getting some use of the battery (been pretty cloudy for a while). I'll post, if I get an outage and I get to see the full operation.
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