Solaredge Optimizers Recommendations

[Magallanes]

Greetings!!

I have an "off-grid" system running two paralleled MPP LV2424 with 3 (16kw) Tesla Model S modules energizing a subpanel, and two arrays with 7 panels each (14 total) installed. I just bought a SolarEdge SE6000H-US HD Wave, looking to install a system for net metering using the in-place arrays, effectively removing them from the off-grid system design. I am leaving the LV2424s/Batteries in place, as they are already "ac coupled" to the main panel.

I am looking into the SOLAREDGE POWER OPTIMIZER P730 with the intention of combining two panels (325w e/a) per optimizer. However my doubts are regarding a comment to the fact that those optimizers are only used on 3ph systems. Can anyone shed some light on this? Is there a specific optimizer that you guys recommend? Thanks!!

 

[Capt Bill]

Greetings!!

I have an "off-grid" system running two paralleled MPP LV2424 with 3 (16kw) Tesla Model S modules energizing a subpanel, and two arrays with 7 panels each (14 total) installed. I just bought a SolarEdge SE6000H-US HD Wave, looking to install a system for net metering using the in-place arrays, effectively removing them from the off-grid system design. I am leaving the LV2424s/Batteries in place, as they are already "ac coupled" to the main panel.

I am looking into the SOLAREDGE POWER OPTIMIZER P730 with the intention of combining two panels (325w e/a) per optimizer. However my doubts are regarding a comment to the fact that those optimizers are only used on 3ph systems. Can anyone shed some light on this? Is there a specific optimizer that you guys recommend? Thanks!!

Just started searching the threads here for SolarEdge info. WOW: ... I currently have 3 MPP LV2424 configured for 240vac Split Phase output ( 40A on one leg/ 20 amp on other, with Grid Backup) hooked up to just over 6000 Watts of PV Input. I notice how my PV panels are just idling in the sun on the small load cycles unless my connected home sub panel needs or applies a fuller load. Definitely been thinking : ... If I was grid tied with the proper meter and permissions, I could be sending my full PV solar capabilities to the grid and get a financial accounting for such. A Savvy Solar Buddy of mine recently recommended I look at the SolarEdge H series. Seeing affordable options; ... I just got Hooked on Intial Research phase, & hope to compare more notes later.

My current wondering questions include: Are those Optimizers Required or optional?; and What does that V2 stand for when I look at these H series inverters over at the altE store? (is there a version 2 of the H series; & if so, what is that about)? : and Why am I seeing the label "Single Phase" on SolarEdge H Series Inverter lables/ when I think their "US" prefix in the label mean USA version plus 240ac usa style- split phase output (without additional equipment); and I think, but have not yet full confirmed, ... that their "Single Phase" term does Not mean an inverter with 240ac single phase output like a European model would have. .. Just Started looking harder yesterday. :+)

 

[Capt Bill]

Are those Optimizers Required or optional?; and What does that V2 stand for when I look at these H series inverters over at the altE store? (is there a version 2 of the H series; & if so, what is that about)? : and Why am I seeing the label "Single Phase" on SolarEdge H Series Inverter lables/ when I think their "US" prefix in the label mean USA version plus 240ac usa style- split phase output (without additional equipment); and I think, but have not yet full confirmed,

I heard back from "one" supplier that Optimizers are required :+( ... still looking for confirming info. . ...Think V2 likely refers to a unit having latest updated firmware ; ... and after looking at an ID lable on a used ($200) SolarEdge ebay gamble option, I am wondering is these SE .... H series units put out usa version of 240vac split phase without an auto-transformer in between (seen some wiring diagrams that support thinking they do). ... I still want to understand fuller specifications picture (an ebay ID picture attached), and confirm the H series 240vac specs do Not mean the European style of single phase 240vac ... (Does "US" in name label mean USA version ??? and 240vac split phase ??? ). Are their similar SE .... H models for the European market? And is this an important question: How do I make sure I am getting a "for usa 240vac split phase version?

I am a newbie on the SolarEdge options; and I want to understand more specifics before I purchase. ... Fishing for Any Comments from those with SolarEdge H series (for Grid-Tie in California) experience :+)

 

[Dsiee]

Optimizers

I think you may be confusing optimisers and microinverters.

 

[Capt Bill]

I think you may be confusing optimisers and microinverters.

From what I have studied, including from SolarEdge tech and install manuals: SolarEdge H series (I think this company is top end, and has long history with many series of equipment) ... uses and requires their "Optimizers" on each solar panel. ... & IN CONTRAST, that term "microinverter" has been made famous by "Enphase" (company name); whose small microinverter units hook up in series at the solar panel location to convert solar dc to ac, & send 120vac or 240vac to your circuit breaker box via smaller wires than requires for dc currrents going to a centralized mppt and inverter unit. I understand other competing companies are also making "microinverters".

On another note: I was excited to find SolarEdge H series equipment on eBay at very affordable prices; then found out one will likely be spending even more money on the required individual Optimizers (likely still worth it). From studying and conversations with a high end solar tech buddy, I believe the H Series has easy battery power options (maybe extra equipment required?) to their Primary Grid Tie function. ... Something I learned just last week: Some SolarEdge home solar equipment run battery banks at up to 250vdc. Wow, ... That is a match to some of the EV battery banks (now some EV batteries going higher to like 400vdc + ??? ). I formally thought 48vdc was the high end for home solar battery banks. Curious, & Learning More All The Time over here :+)

FYI: I have seen some used inexpensive SolarEdge Optimizers on eBay that look like a they could be a good gamble if the size match was right (think solar panel watts need to match optimizer model). Of course that is a hit and miss option on availability that some DIYers like me might consider. I saw various listings of optimizers pulled from a functioning systems. I wonder if and who is experimenting with used SolarEdge Grid Tie equipment, and tricking such into functioning as off grid home solar ??? SolarEdge seems to me one othe the high ends for efficiency.

 

[Capt Bill]

Re: (my above). ... Something I learned just last week: Some SolarEdge home solar equipment run battery banks at up to 250vdc. Wow, ... That is a match to some of the EV battery banks (now some EV batteries going higher to like 400vdc + ??? ). I formally thought 48vdc was the high end for home solar battery banks.

Update: from lots of stories I am getting from my long time buddy Doug, who use to be Tech Support for Mendocino County Real Goods in the 90s, and is still involved, independently now, with supplying detailed tech support specs and drawings for the utility company paperwork, and building permits; ...which is also the specs for the installers, for medium size to huge projects customers. ... I just got a story about PG&E's first time turn on for a legal grid tie in California where PG&E bused 35 engineer types to witness the first turns of those mechanical grid meters used at that time ... turning backwards. Some funny specifics I might write about elsewhere. ... Re SolarEdge: I most recently learned when SolarEdge is using Batteries, their system tap into 380vdc battery banks (they have a long history with lots of product series, so likely speaking of newer versions. I now think some EV also use that same voltage while noticing the more detailed specs beyond kWh on EV batteries has been hard to for me to find or dig up.

Re: Some inexpensive used SolarEdge equipment on eBay taken out of working system, but mostly not tested; I wonder who is experimenting with such grid tie equipment and tricking them into functioning as an off grid system. One DIY idea floating in my imagination is a hands on learning curve challenge project I might try later: I wonder If a SolarEdge system (I am attracted to their high end efficiency); Wonder If they can be tricked into off grid - island type operation separated from the grid? ... Who is doing that? Also Wonder if a DIYer could integrating a 380vdc battery bank connected to such off grid experiment ... with a plug in to an EV with the same voltage ... Food for Thought on DIY Experiment options. I am also Inviting anyone experimenting with these type of ideas to share their stories :+)

P.S. Sorry if I am hijacking a thread on optimizers, if anyone minds ??? Just going with inspiring thoughts, ... now with after thought of possibly being out of sync w normal forum protocol ???

 

[Keith Moreau]

How is your Solaredge system doing? I'm wondering about the requirement of using an older SolarEdge SE3000A WITHOUT using their optimizers. I understand it wants to 'connect' to them, but if I had, say a string with Tigo Optimizers, would it still take the PV DC and convert it to AC? Or will it just refuse to work without a connection to their brand of optimizers? I don't need their monitoring functionality since my Tigo TS4-A-0s do that already for me. Just wanted an inexpensive Grid Tie option... Thanks for advice!

 

[Ampster]

Check the Solaredge specs to see. My recollection is that the Solaredge optimizers affect the string voltage and the inverter expects that voltage. The TIGOs may not operated the same way. If the Solaredge does not get communication from the optimizers it may error out. I believe it is a system that needs both components.

 

[Keith Moreau]

@Ampster there is very little info about this out there officially, though it seems that this might be the case that it will refuse to work without some SolarEdge optimizers but I saw a video where it had successfully created a monitoring connection to some of the SolarEdge optimizers but not all, but the power from the SolarEdge didn't fluctuate as it continued to find more optimizers, which led me to believe that the inverter operation was independent from it successfully communicating with the optimizers. But maybe if finds 0 Solaredge optimizers it will refuse to work and shut down... Anybody have a definitive answer?

 

[Ampster]

I presume you already have the Tigo optimizers and have or are considering the Solaredge? Is that why you are asking instead of just using another string inverter that is compatable with the Tigos?

 

[Keith Moreau]

I'm asking because I can get a used Solaredge, I already have a Sol-Ark 12K fully loaded with PV and have some extra panels with Tigo Optimizers already on them driving an inexpensive MPP Solar hybrid inverter to parallel charge some batteries but it has limits, especially when the batteries are full, it is idle. I know the Sol-Ark can take AC-Coupled grid tie inverters to it's GEN input to augment it's grid tie production as well as charging batteries and seems like a more efficient solution to my extra panels. However, further research has shown that the SolarEdge seems to need it's own optimizers, and even though I don't have a definitive conclusion that it just won't work, it seems to be borrowing trouble to try to work around this at this point. It seems that the SolarEdge has built-in MPPTs in its own optimizers to get the most out of each panel, and therefore it really doesn't have MPPTs inside of it so probably if I could fool it into working it wouldn't be efficient without the MPPT functionality of adjusting voltage and current like an MPPT does. So I've learned a bit at this point. I'll probably try to get a used SMA inverter for a good deal. This is really just having fun and experimenting for my own knowledge gain.

 

[Ampster]

I already have a Sol-Ark 12K fully loaded with PV and have some extra panels with Tigo Optimizers already on them driving an inexpensive MPP Solar hybrid inverter to parallel charge some batteries but it has limits, especially when the batteries are full, it is idle. I know the Sol-Ark can take AC-Coupled grid tie inverters to it's GEN input to augment it's grid tie production as well as charging batteries and seems like a more efficient solution to my extra panels.

I don't know how many panels you have but if it is less than ten it might be worth hooking those panels up with micro inverters that can AC couple. You can get used Enphase inverters for less than $100 each. My only caveat would be make sure they are CA Rule 21 or UL 1741 SA compliant because with that spec you can get them to modulate. The older Enphase inverters with just the UL 1741 (no SA suffix) are only capable of on or off in response to frequency shift signals in an AC coupling situation. @Hedges has experience with SMA and can give you insight into good deals and configuration issues.

 

[Keith Moreau]

I agree AC coupling microinverters would work well. However, I have 12 extra panels so we're looking at $1200 extra, different monitoring and optimization, when I have 12 perfectly good Tigo-TS4-A-O with the monitoring, Rapid Shutdown, etc. It seems most of the used SMAs are the older 1741 rather than the 1741SA so they are just on or off. I'm wondering if modulation is necessary. I have a call into Sol-Ark to see if the just 1741 will work, I suspect not, I suppose this is so they can gently shift the grid tie power output and not have it full blast of completely off.

 

[Hedges]

$1200? - a used or new-old-stock Sunny Boy could be had for less (except maybe a 10kW unit). I've paid about $0.10/watt.

You want frequency-watts modulation, although perhaps with DC coupled PV the SolArk can frequency shift until UL-1741 inverters kick offline then stay there and make up the difference with its own inverter. How it would behave is another question.

I've thought about a mix of GT PV inverters having some with modulation and some without, and I've convinced myself that at some loading the ones without modulation will get repeatedly kicked off rather than system operating at a steady frequency.

Almost all the older SMA Sunny Boys (and TriPower) will modulate output. SMA probably invented frequency-watts, long before there was UL-1741-SA. That is how they interact with Sunny Island. They will have three mode: UL-1741, backup, off-grid. With "backup = on all phases" or similar setting, they are notified via RS-485 from Sunny Island when to follow UL-1741 specs and when to operate with wider limits. When grid goes down they initially drop offline, but them come back in backup mode.

I don't think "backup" mode would work with battery inverters other than Sunny Island because they wouldn't provide the RS-485 communication.
"Offgrid" mode should work fine in an offgrid situation.

I would have some concern about using "offgrid" for grid-tied behind a battery inverter. SMA support did give me that as a workaround for 10000TLUS which turned out to not support "backup" correctly, saying that Sunny Island would take care of anti-islanding, etc. However, that was not the originally documented configuration from their design group. In the event relay in Sunny Island welded closed, it would not be able to disconnect Sunny Boy from the grid, so I envision a problem with Sunny Boy not following UL-1741 requirements.

https://files.sma.de/downloads/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-22.pdf

I know the Sol-Ark can take AC-Coupled grid tie inverters to it's GEN input to augment it's grid tie production as well as charging batteries and seems like a more efficient solution to my extra panels.

Gen input? I vaguely recall from manual it having a separate GEN input, but I would expect that to never connect to Grid input.
I would expect AC coupled PV inverters to be on the load output, managed by frequency shift when off-grid and backfeeding grid when on-grid.

I'll probably try to get a used SMA inverter for a good deal. This is really just having fun and experimenting for my own knowledge gain.

I would. But then I've been referred to here as an "SMA Slut"

 

[Keith Moreau]

@Hedges The Sol-Ark's GEN input is multi-purpose. Normally it's used for generator, but you can configure it to take the output of an AC-Coupled 1741SA grid tie inverter (micro or otherwise). It's to accommodate folks who have some type of grid-tie system involved but want to add the Sol-Ark's feature set such as storage, PV strings. It will charge the batteries until full then pass through to the grid. With this you can have more power than just the DC strings alone since it's just passing through AC onto the grid output. The Sol-Ark regulates this with the 1741SA frequency watt protocol, particularly if off grid an the battery gets full. On grid it should just pass through as much as is coming into that input.