States/Cities Attempting To Limit You Self Produced Power...

[JeepHammer]

So, locally the city has banned off grid.

Some states are limiting the time/use of batteries to offset peak usage.

This is an attempt to keep everyone paying fees to maintain the grid, and to keep profits coming in during winter when demand is lower.

Generally, I stay as far away from legal/political arguments as possible. Complete and total waste of my time/effort and causes a ton of issues with friends/family...

I just helped with a basically off grid system which will still have a $35 a month fee, and taxes to avoid high rates and rate increases. A new garage with solar generation surfaces made him energy independent. Since he can make everything he uses, he doesn't consume from the grid side at all... We are waiting to see what the city does when they realize his consumption is zero.

There are a couple of law suits locally the guys are watching where the system owners are challenging the rules/laws. It's going to take a while (government) so I have no idea how its going to turn out.

The basic challenge is the right to choose fossil fuel vs. renewable energy that doesn't pollute. The right to NOT participate in producing pollution.

The argument is, like some religions are exempt from military service, pacifists in belief, this should be extended to people that don't want to participate in fossil fuel/pollution.

According to the legal eagle types, this is a new legal argument/angle.

If there is a lawyer versed in the area of law this pertains to, then I'd like an educated, non-binding explanation of how this might work in the legal system.

 

[Tulex]

I will get into the political side. Plain and simple, liberals want to restrict EVERYTHING to electric. NY state, where I live, is banning gas appliances. Feds and states are banning gas cars. And guess who will be controlling the electric. If people don't see what's going on, they are blind. Is it too late to stop this? I don't know. A high number of people still support the liberals in office making these decisions. Even Rod Serling would say all of this is too crazy for the Twilight Zone.

 

[AntronX]

The cost to generate a kWh of electricity is around 3 - 4 cents. To bring it to you it costs on average 10 cents. If 50% of customers go off grid / zero out their usage then it now costs 20 cents to bring that kWh to a customer since operating the grid remains the same. Laws are written to prohibit disconnecting from the grid so the cost remains spread out amongst everyone. It will take undeniable value proposition and large enough mass of people to force a change in this law. For now we can keep building solar until that value proposition takes over.

 

[cs1234]

I got news for you @Tulex . It's whatever party is in control in your state that is limiting solar through regulatory capture. I'm in Texas, it's Republicans here as Democrats have nothing for power. Only reason it's Democrats (liberals) where you are, is because that's the party in power. One of the other guys posting in a thread here is in Arizona, guess who's not in charge of the state government there?

Utilities and other interested parties don't want you to generate your own electricity cheaply on your own, so you don't get to.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I got news for you @Tulex . It's whatever party is in control in your state that is limiting solar through regulatory capture. I'm in Texas, it's Republicans here as Democrats have nothing for power. Only reason it's Democrats (liberals) where you are, is because that's the party in power. One of the other guys posting in a thread here is in Arizona, guess who's not in charge of the state government there?

Utilities and other interested parties don't want you to generate your own electricity cheaply on your own, so you don't get to.

Establishment Republicans or Democrats. Different sides of the same coin.
All trying to maintain power.

The POCOs use whomever or whatever they can to keep their monopoly.

Same with fossil fuel industry.

How is this is going to play out in the long run?
Not sure.

Although I would like to see things go in a direction that was less detrimental to all, I don’t think Solar and wind are going to get us there.

For Most housing and even office buildings of a certain size I believe it will work.

Heavy industries or Farming? Don’t think we are there yet.

I’m all for converting to electric but don’t tell me I can’t make my own.

 

[cs1234]

Rarely do I like your posts @Nobodybusiness , but that was a reasonable reply.

 

[houseofancients]

I will get into the political side. Plain and simple, liberals want to restrict EVERYTHING to electric. NY state, where I live, is banning gas appliances. Feds and states are banning gas cars. And guess who will be controlling the electric. If people don't see what's going on, they are blind. Is it too late to stop this? I don't know. A high number of people still support the liberals in office making these decisions. Even Rod Serling would say all of this is too crazy for the Twilight Zone.

and here i thought it was the republicans try to keep their big corp sponsors happy...

lol yeah let's not go there

 

[DIYrich]

Don't know whether there is a religious right not to pollute. There is an argument that is similar to Obamacare: Can government mandate the purchase of a private product? If you are in the service area of a municipal run utility, then grid connection is a tax. If you are in the service area of an investor owned utility, then there is an argument that government cannot compel you to purchase anything from a private entity.

For arguments relating to automobile insurance: you don't have to buy it if you don't drive. It is your decision to drive that triggers the mandate.

I can't see how the mere act of owning a home can trigger a grid connect mandate. There is not a life-safety issue. Also, if the remedy is to turn off your electric service for non-payment, then go ahead.

 

[houseofancients]

on a serious note though, i though they couldnt prohibt self generation , based on federal law ?

 

[DIYrich]

on a serious note though, i though they couldnt prohibt self generation , based on federal law ?

Like federal restrictions on production of alcohol? Lots of federal laws pre-empt local laws, like satellite dishes for tv. There are state laws that pre-empt HOA restrictions on solar. I can't think of a federal law.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

on a serious note though, i though they couldnt prohibt self generation , based on federal law ?

How?

 

[v_green57]

So, locally the city has banned off grid.

Some states are limiting the time/use of batteries to offset peak usage.

This is an attempt to keep everyone paying fees to maintain the grid, and to keep profits coming in during winter when demand is lower.

Generally, I stay as far away from legal/political arguments as possible. Complete and total waste of my time/effort and causes a ton of issues with friends/family...

I just helped with a basically off grid system which will still have a $35 a month fee, and taxes to avoid high rates and rate increases. A new garage with solar generation surfaces made him energy independent. Since he can make everything he uses, he doesn't consume from the grid side at all... We are waiting to see what the city does when they realize his consumption is zero.

There are a couple of law suits locally the guys are watching where the system owners are challenging the rules/laws. It's going to take a while (government) so I have no idea how its going to turn out.

The basic challenge is the right to choose fossil fuel vs. renewable energy that doesn't pollute. The right to NOT participate in producing pollution.

The argument is, like some religions are exempt from military service, pacifists in belief, this should be extended to people that don't want to participate in fossil fuel/pollution.

According to the legal eagle types, this is a new legal argument/angle.

If there is a lawyer versed in the area of law this pertains to, then I'd like an educated, non-binding explanation of how this might work in the legal system.

Huh.

I wonder if this perverted logic can be extended to those of us who harvest and store rainwater and use it for non-potable stuff (flushing toilets, etc.) because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Not because of the $$ saved (which is not that large).

Can't have us doing our part to offset the 20+ year SW drought if it impacts somebody's bottom line or is labeled as "unfair" because not everybody is able to do it...

Can you share the state/city where you are? I would like to look and read the regulatory language for myself.

 

[houseofancients]

i would think : https://www.congress.gov/bill/111th-congress/house-bill/2454 applies here ?

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Like federal restrictions on production of alcohol?

Yea that didn’t work out very well.

It’s like anything else.
If people want it and can get it then they will.
It just goes underground.

I wish they would just legalize Drugs.

It would be a “Hold on to your butts” for a couple of years but it would eliminate more problems than it caused In my opinion.

 

[cs1234]

I can't see how the mere act of owning a home can trigger a grid connect mandate. There is not a life-safety issue. Also, if the remedy is to turn off your electric service for non-payment, then go ahead.

Unfortunately they probably have it coded into law that your house would then be condemned as unlivable or unsafe or some such.

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

As Home Power Magazine used to say,

Gorilla Solar. Don't ask don't tell... Just press SELL !!

That was in the 1990s

 

[Nobodybusiness]

i would think : https://www.congress.gov/bill/111th-congress/house-bill/2454 applies here ?

Not a law yet is it? Only place I see it passed the house in 2009.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

As Home Power Magazine used to say,

Gorilla Solar. Don't ask don't tell... Just press SELL !!

That was in the 1990s

Yup. Love Richard Perez..

 

[Mattb4]

The Great Solar prohibition era was a fascinating one in the history of our country. Illegal "Sunshine" setups popped up everywhere and the G-men were busy with raids. The more well off people would go to Speakeasy solar bars and lounges where the power was served up by scantily clad waitresses.

A whole new form of racing was born when back wood solar "shiners" would soup up their electric cars in order to help avoid the law on the way to distribute their product.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

Rarely do I like your posts @Nobodybusiness , but that was a reasonable reply.

Well thank you. I try.. ?

 

[Tulex]

I got news for you @Tulex . It's whatever party is in control in your state that is limiting solar through regulatory capture. I'm in Texas, it's Republicans here as Democrats have nothing for power. Only reason it's Democrats (liberals) where you are, is because that's the party in power. One of the other guys posting in a thread here is in Arizona, guess who's not in charge of the state government there?

Utilities and other interested parties don't want you to generate your own electricity cheaply on your own, so you don't get to.

The fact that greedy republicans are ignorant to/simply don't care how their greed plays right into the liberals hands doesn't change my opinion one bit. Loss of freedom is the goal. You only have to look at where the control factors will be. Greed and control are two different things. One takes from you at the time, the other forever.

 

[OzSolar]

As Home Power Magazine used to say,

Gorilla Solar. Don't ask don't tell... Just press SELL !!

That was in the 1990s

I remember that. I was both stunned and sad to see that they'd closed. I thought...."How could such an important source of information be no more!?!?!" Then I realized I hadn't renewed my subscription for at least 5 years. Oops..

 

[OzSolar]

So, locally the city has banned off grid.

May I ask where you are? I get the pleasure of being asked to testify at PSC hearings a few times a year. What I think I've learned is that some of the commissioners are great people who are really interested in helping the ratepayers out but some really seem to be on the IOU's (Investor Owned Utility) payroll along with ALL of the state district reps regardless of political affiliation. It's pretty clear after their terms end what side they were on, some move onto to gigs as consultants with the the utilities' they are regulating while others don't.

 

[Ampster]

So, locally the city has banned off grid.

I alway like to question statements like that because there are some subleties that some people do not understand.
What my experience has informed me about that is that there are building code issues that prevent people from disconnecting from sewer, water, or electricity if those services are provided to the site. Even though you have to have a connection to the electric service provider, there is nothing in those statutes that say you have to use that service. If you are going to self generate, you need to have a building permit for the solar or the generator. I would be very surprised to hear of a city that would not give you a building permit for and solar powered inverter with a battery backup. The only exceptions are cities which also run their own public utilities and in some of those cases they have adopted ordinances that do prevent you or limit you on how much power you can produce.

 

[Ampster]

I can't see how the mere act of owning a home can trigger a grid connect mandate. There is not a life-safety issue.

The argument for building codes to require a grid connection is safety. Their titles are often building and safety codes.
I understand that, but I also believe they cannot force you to use that power. I think we have a right to generate our own power as long as we do it safely. What that means to me is that we need to obtain a building permit and comply with the buidling code.