Structure building w/ LFP is different than building w/ lead acid

[Guda]

I live in a pretty big off grid community in Oregon. All my neighbors places Ive been in that are code permitted properties have a separate structure to house their lead acid & the rest of their solar system. Makes sense with lead acid. Most have their water in yet another structure or just in a tank outside.

I have no idea about code. But after years of researching batteries I feel totally safe having my LFP in my home structure along with the water tanks. I have been in a fire where LFP burned up. They didn't cause the fire but they burned. Them burning was indistinguishable from everything burning around them. LFP wont start a fire unless the operator & or manufacture make a big mistake. So it just makes sense to build the total solar system into the main structure. I think of it as the heart of my structure. Longevity of the equipment will be extended quite a bit being out of the elements.

Building the water tank(s) into the main structure is also a huge benefit. Not only will the tanks last a lifetime longer, the water held in them can help regulate the temperature of the entire structure.

Again I have no idea about code & govs are so slow to react to new tech that who knows what the permitting process looks like for this area to area. But what I can tell you is I feel safe doing it. Its going to save me $. Its going to help equipment last longer. Its going to cut down on heating & cooling requirements. Maybe more.

Good luck!

 

[Weldman]

One mouse chew away from a dangerous fire that the fumes alone if burning will either kill you or be long term health problem if one puts them in their house. Rather put my power station outdoors in its own structure, got enough deadly chemicals in a house or stuff that can burn to kill one.

 

[Guda]

One mouse chew away from a dangerous fire that the fumes alone if burning will either kill you or be long term health problem if one puts them in their house. Rather put my power station outdoors in its own structure, got enough deadly chemicals in a house or stuff that can burn to kill one.

Sorry to hear about your infestation. My system is impossible for a rodent to get at. You might want to get your wire cleaned up off the floor for further safety.

 

[Weldman]

No infestation here and if you ever lived out in the country not in a community actual country land you will find mice are natural rodents of said areas. Pick your wires up all you want but they will climb anywhere, nest anywhere and if they can squeeze their head through the rest will follow.

 

[Guda]

No infestation here and if you ever lived out in the country not in a community actual country land you will find mice are natural rodents of said areas. Pick your wires up all you want but they will climb anywhere, nest anywhere and if they can squeeze their head through the rest will follow.

I live off grid on 10 acres. I think rodents are a problem for low IQ people. I don't have these issues. A lot of people in the country are not too bright at all. They install a 12v system in their RV & think they are a genius.

 

[Weldman]

Lmao 10 acres an off grid, yeah that’s roughing it alright and how close is your nearest neighbor or city…
Lets see about 70 acres off grid on raw land, nearest neighbor 3 miles away, we are living next to 600 acres of BLM land nearest town is 50 miles down a rock road, mail runs 3 days a week at most and system here is 24V in our RV going to 48V and I still don’t consider myself a genius. Power poles are 10 miles away, no water lines, sewage or phone lines run here in fact no cell phone signal without a 65+dB booster after I put it 40’ in the air.
Keep thinking you are all that and then some, I find it funny and appreciate the laugh.

 

[Guda]

This is the problem with this forum. Dunning Kruger runs wild. I outline a building theory & some genius wants to think mice can undo quality intelligent building techniques.....

Dude, you've said nothing valuable here. "Mice" LOL... Okay....

The funny part is, how you keep the mice out of the power house? LOL.... I mean, okay so now the mice chew the battery in the power house & what? If you can't keep mice outta stuff, then let them chew the battery as long as its not in your home structure? Did even think this through?

Put your battery & the rest of your system in your home structure for the following reasons

1. Save $
2. Extend the life of your equipment
3. Make your build easier

 

[400bird]

I think it's funny that you think you can make part of the house rodent proof.
And you say rodent problems are related to IQ ?

Unless you're going to weld the batteries inside a sealed metal enclosure with no openings an interested rodent will find it's way in.

 

[toms]

I have no problems keeping mice out. I find it very hard to believe that building your water tank into your house will save money.

My batteries are in a separate enclosure to my house,

 

[curiouscarbon]

Having a LiFePO4 system in living space, I would need at least:

1) Steel enclosure, if not welded, edges folded and bolted together with some sort of high temperature sealant around the seams.

This to contain the fire and heat if I totally mess up.

2) A robust vent from the steel container to the outside world.

This is to facilitate the weird odours of my potential failure to be outside rather than inside.

---

A temperature monitoring and alert system in combination with a well thought out safety disconnect scheme in combination with a significant cabinet would make me feel safe enough to have it in my house.

With EV/grade-A cells… yeah doable.

With B-grade or dinged cells… I would personally need them to be outside.

 

[Short_Shot]

I think it's funny that you think you can make part of the house rodent proof.
And you say rodent problems are related to IQ ?

Unless you're going to weld the batteries inside a sealed metal enclosure with no openings an interested rodent will find it's way in.

I have an acre surrounded by trees and brush. I tend to let my grass stay a bit long.
I have voles and field mice and all manner of critters.

I've never seen a single shred of evidence of a mouse getting into my home but I have found them in my garage. The garage door not have the same tight door seal I put on my front and back door of the house.

My house is shockingly well sealed up despite having been built in 1955.

It's not that hard to prevent mice from getting into a home if you put actual effort into closing it up properly.

 

[Steve_S]

I'm Rural Remote OFFGrid, Nearest "City" 200km away. I have 1700 Acres protected land behind me, 1200 acres protected (Cliff & Rough) in front of me, neighbour is thumb sized IF I see him from end of my driveway. MICE ! Ohhh Man we GOT EM ! Deer, Moose, Bears, Turkeys and everything else that you can imagine and more, VERY lively out here!

Have they gotten into my Powerhouse ?
YES (Actually made a CAMP ontop of my Lead Acid Batteries ! Bold/Brazen & BRASH !) ejected of course.
Steel Bucket with 3" of water and a rolling wooden dowel with Chunky Peanut butter on the dowel, 4 others caught & eliminated. NEVER POISONS.
Have they been a recurring problem ? NO. They only seek shelter in fall, so never leave door open etc... That's how previous "guests" got in, my leaving door open.
Powerhouse structure is on a Slab Concrete Foundation, semi-standard wood construction (Rough Cut Lumber & Solid Foam Sheet insulation only). My Powerhouse is also my Pumphouse & holds my 50 Gallon Pressure tank, therefore it must be heated in winter which I do with a Recycled RV Direct Vent LPG Furnace (run off 12V, has own battery & solar panel) tp 10C/50F and with the Inverter & everthing in there which also make heat it really does not take much. NB: NOT a Normal Structure, Solid Foam Sheets in-wall, 1" thermal separation from sheathing with foam sheet as well, plus "Rain-Screen Siding" installation which provides an additional 1.5" Thermal separation (air space between siding & structure). This method prevents the building from absorbing exterior heat/cold or transferring the same out to the exterior in winter. It is essential DIY "Structural Insulated Panels".

TIP from Neighbour which DOES WORK.
The Ultra-Sonic Rodent Repellers actually work. I thought it was bunk but she proved it. Her Root-cellar was under constant invasion, it was bad, as most of you can likely imagine how it could get and fast. She tried EVERYTHING ! was going insane... a friend bought her one (he uses them in the milkhouse) and she reluctantly put it in and POOF No Mice, she cleaned everything up, re-Limewashed everything to spotless and has not seen a mouse in 2 years. APPARENTLY not all equal, which I guess is no surprise.

MOUSE ISSUES ASIDE ! What a Distraction eh !
Any form of metal enclosure really won't do much IF the Lithium does catch fire (internal/external source of combustion) because the heat will vapourize the metal. Remember it's gonna be 3500C+ okay.... Now you can BUILD A BOX and line it with Magnesium Oxide (Mag-O) Fireboard which makes cement fireboard look like OSB. It's about 50% the cost for a 4'x8' sheet of cement board too. That will contain a Lithium Fire for a while (it can take 4000C). It's not hard to work with but patience & care + it's heavy like hell. Most Building supply houses carry it.

The BIG issue with Lead, was not the Fire Potential, it's the Hydrogen Offgassing during charge which made folks crazy. (Fire Potential with Lead Acid relates to Bad Maintenance, ie not watering them and allowing the plates to get exposed = Major Oh-Chit Potential !) The irony is most residential systems never really output much hydrogen and which only likely ever cause a handful of issues. Large Battery Rooms on the other hand could get quite dangerous with Hydrogen. LESSONS LEARNED BY SUBMARINERS Way Back When ! Those were Hard & Fast Lessons which shot the Fear Factor far forward into Lead Acid Battery Consciousness. See how it's still sticking around and being applied to "ALL Batteries"... Far more houses blow up from Natural Gas / LPG Leaks but of course they don't want to mention that too much Big Oil/Gas don't like that ! Just like Gas Car Fires that are rarely reported yet happen Daily ! Shhhhh ... ommission is key in 21st century you know.

 

[JoeHam]

I have about 8 kWh of LiFePO4 in my basement working 24/7/365 for over a year now.

No special enclosure used here.

 

[toms]

It’s not the first decade or so where you need to worry.

 

[JoeHam]

After a decade I expect to have batteries that are lighter and cheaper.

Either way, I doubt I will be running the same ones in a decade.

Only time will tell.

 

[Keith Moreau]

@Steve_S "Now you can BUILD A BOX and line it with Magnesium Oxide (Mag-O) Fireboard which makes cement fireboard look like OSB. It's about 50% the cost for a 4'x8' sheet of cement board too. That will contain a Lithium Fire for a while (it can take 4000C). It's not hard to work with but patience & care + it's heavy like hell. Most Building supply houses carry it."

After you mentioned this amazing board, I searched for it. Doesn't seem available in the USA? Where did you see what you mentioned? It seems like a great material for all kinds of things that might burn. Right now I've only seen this material on outdoor fireplace / pits, etc. Thanks for any help.

 

[Steve_S]

DragonBoard USA - Official Site

The Official Home of DragonBoard USA. Dragonboard Magnesium Oxide Board (MgO) is a lightweight alternative to poured concrete. Dragonboard is ideal in floor applications where non combustibility and resistance to abuse, termites, fire, and mold are required.

dragonboard.com

Gee wiz, just looked at Home Depot / Lowes in USA and they don't sell the boards... WTH ?
Hell, we even use it for a Tile Backer which it's absolutely perfect for... geez, THAT sucks.

 

[stuart_]

Lmao 10 acres an off grid, yeah that’s roughing it alright and how close is your nearest neighbor or city…
Lets see about 70 acres off grid on raw land, nearest neighbor 3 miles away, we are living next to 600 acres of BLM land nearest town is 50 miles down a rock road, mail runs 3 days a week at most and system here is 24V in our RV going to 48V and I still don’t consider myself a genius. Power poles are 10 miles away, no water lines, sewage or phone lines run here in fact no cell phone signal without a 65+dB booster after I put it 40’ in the air.
Keep thinking you are all that and then some, I find it funny and appreciate the laugh.

You get mail and a cell signal? Unimaginable luxuries!

 

[Primal1]

I live off grid on 10 acres. I think rodents are a problem for low IQ people. I don't have these issues. A lot of people in the country are not too bright at all. They install a 12v system in their RV & think they are a genius.

Wlell I was going to dispte your statement that rodents were a problem for the low IQ but a quick check of the top 50 most rat infested cities has thinking you may be right. The first 10 sum it up.

1 Chicago	26. Raleigh, N.C. (-2)
2. Los Angeles	27. Hartford, Conn. (-2)
3. New York	28. Columbus, Oh (-7)
4. Washington, D.C.	29. Grand Rapids
5. San Francisco	30. Kansas City (+8)
6. Detroit	31. Charlotte, N.C. (-3)
7. Philadelphia (+3)	32. Phoenix (5)
8. Baltimore (+4)	33. Richmond, Va. (-3)
9. Denver	34. Nashville
10. Minneapolis (-2)	35. Greenville, S.C. (-2)
11. Cleveland, Oh. (-4)	36. Sacramento (+5)
12. Seattle (+1)	37. St. Louis (-6)
13. Boston (+1)	38. Albany, New York (+10)
14. Atlanta (-3)	39. Champaign, Ill. (-3)
15. Indianapolis (+1)	40. Green Bay (+18)
16. Dallas-Fort Worth (-1)	41. Tampa (-1)
17. Houston	42. Flint, Mich. (+3)
18. Pittsburgh	43. Buffalo, New York (-8)
19. San Diego (+13)	44. Syracuse (-5)
20. Miami (-1)	45. Knoxville (+14)
21. New Orleans (+6)	46. Orlando (-3)
22. Cincinnati (+1)	47. Burlington, Vt. (+2)
23. Portland, Or. (-1)	48. Albuquerque (+19)
24. Milwaukee (-4)	49. Dayton (-2)
25. Norfolk, Va. (+1)	50. West Palm Beach (+3)

 

[Weldman]

DragonBoard USA - Official Site

The Official Home of DragonBoard USA. Dragonboard Magnesium Oxide Board (MgO) is a lightweight alternative to poured concrete. Dragonboard is ideal in floor applications where non combustibility and resistance to abuse, termites, fire, and mold are required.

dragonboard.com

Gee wiz, just looked at Home Depot / Lowes in USA and they don't sell the boards... WTH ?
Hell, we even use it for a Tile Backer which it's absolutely perfect for... geez, THAT sucks.

If you want a piece of lumber you can get it from there, if you want something like that good luck. I learned long ago box stores mostly don’t and won’t carry anything more than the basics and that is subjective too on quality. I wouldn’t even trust the bricks at Lowe’s or Home Depot to build a house with.