SUNGOLD 10KW 48V SPLIT PHASE SOLAR INVERTER

[Lighthouse Beacon]

Why 40 amps instead of the 25 amps mentioned in the manual? Wouldn't that impact safety as the breaker will not trip when 25 amps are exceeded?
Why 2 of those? wouldn't just one do the job?
How many solar panels does your system have?
Did you use the 10 AWG wire to connect the PV to the 40 amps breaker?
Thanks for your patience with my questions.

Yes. I need two because I’m

It’s just a disconnect (well the other commenter bought it for the surge protector and I think prefers breakers to disconnect switches). Sounds like you aren’t familiar with the fusing rules for PV DC. If your strings are 2P or less and you size wires to be greater than 1.56* Isc, then you do not need fuses. Note that if you fuse below this there is a real possibility that solar boosting weather conditions will cause the fuse to blow.

So in this case having big OCPD rating doesn’t matter because you don’t need fuses anyway.

You need two pole because this is a transformer less, non grounded solar configuration. This is the most common config today. And ungrounded refers to the current carrying conductors, the solar panel frames are still grounded.

Note even with the best equipment the wiring guide isn’t guaranteed to tell you all the connections to make and switchgear you have to buy. Nor would hiring out for a wiring diagram specific to your setup.

I think you need to go back to first principles and read some general threads about PV sizing and how volts/current works for PV. Trying to figure that out piecemeal from a product thread is kind of backwards and also means only people interested in the product will see your questions.

Whether you connect PV directly or transition to THHN etc depends on implementation details. I think usually people transition from PV to THHN at either combiner box, junction box, or isolator disconnect at array. So pretty early on. PV is hard to pull, costs a little more, and needs bigger conduit.

prob good advice,

You’ve got two solar inputs so you’ve got two parallel inputs, each need a way to be disconnected from your inverter.

Keep reading and stay in spec with manual you’ll be fine. You’ll learn alot too, I am still new to this too but it’s been a lot of fun ao far

 

[zanydroid]

The connection between ungrounded and two pole is that all ungrounded conductors need to be disconnected with a single throw or breaker trip. This applies for all circuit types.

Another factoid about DC solar circuits is that the safety multiplier depends on what is responsible for current limiting. On Bart module itself that is just… how far the earth is from the sun. Once PV goes past a DC DC converter or optimizer it is eligible for 1.25 multiplier against the max output rating of that.

 

[42OhmsPA]

It’s just a disconnect (well the other commenter bought it for the surge protector and I think prefers breakers to disconnect switches). Sounds like you aren’t familiar with the fusing rules for PV DC. If your strings are 2P or less and you size wires to be greater than 1.56* Isc, then you do not need fuses. Note that if you fuse below this there is a real possibility that solar boosting weather conditions will cause the fuse to blow.

So in this case having big OCPD rating doesn’t matter because you don’t need fuses anyway.

You need two pole because this is a transformer less, non grounded solar configuration. This is the most common config today. And ungrounded refers to the current carrying conductors, the solar panel frames are still grounded.

Note even with the best equipment the wiring guide isn’t guaranteed to tell you all the connections to make and switchgear you have to buy. Nor would hiring out for a wiring diagram specific to your setup.

I think you need to go back to first principles and read some general threads about PV sizing and how volts/current works for PV. Trying to figure that out piecemeal from a product thread is kind of backwards and also means only people interested in the product will see your questions.

This is all excellent info and advice.

Whether you connect PV directly or transition to THHN etc depends on implementation details. I think usually people transition from PV to THHN at either combiner box, junction box, or isolator disconnect at array. So pretty early on. PV is hard to pull, costs a little more, and needs bigger conduit.

I can relate to this 110%. My first 2 roof arrays were PV wire in EMT from the roof to the disconnect / combiner ~60' away.
My ground mount went from PV to THHN at the disconnect I installed at the mount, then EMT back to the house. I thought to myself wow this pull is way easier as the THHN slid smoothly through the EMT.

Sorry for the slight diversion, had to point out great advice.

 

[Lighthouse Beacon]

The connection between ungrounded and two pole is that all ungrounded conductors need to be disconnected with a single throw or breaker trip. This applies for all circuit types.

Another factoid about DC solar circuits is that the safety multiplier depends on what is responsible for current limiting. On Bart module itself that is just… how far the earth is from the sun. Once PV goes past a DC DC converter or optimizer it is eligible for 1.25 multiplier against the max output rating of that.

Correct. @zanydroid sounds like a straight up electrical engineer! ??

 

[zanydroid]

Correct. @zanydroid sounds like a straight up electrical engineer! ??

I’m not (took only the minimum in my engineering program 20 years ago, which I guess is a lot more than most people) but solar has been a good motivator to face my demons. Both in terms of fear of heights and having trouble with EE.

 

[Dave911]

THHN wire has two insulation layers. The inner layer is PVC, the outer layer is a thin layer of nylon. The nylon is applied right after the PVC on a wire insulation line. They nylon is very abrasion resistant and slippery, which is ideal for pulling through conduit!

I have done a lot of controls work on wire insulation lines that make THHN and similar wire.

 

[zanydroid]

I think the PVC layer is doing the heavy lifting electrically, the nylon is more like sacrificial/ablative lubricant to help with pulling.

PV has some overkill characteristics like >600V operation (not allowed in residential, and no MPPT / inverter good to install at your house able to take advantage as a result), high(er) abrasion resistance (it’s not going to survive sitting on your asphalt shingles), and exposed run/UV resistant when sitting under panels/in an array. Those don’t help in a conduit and actively hurt bc it’s so inflexible and overly thick

 

[cs1234]

This is all excellent info and advice.

I can relate to this 110%. My first 2 roof arrays were PV wire in EMT from the roof to the disconnect / combiner ~60' away.
My ground mount went from PV to THHN at the disconnect I installed at the mount, then EMT back to the house. I thought to myself wow this pull is way easier as the THHN slid smoothly through the EMT.

Sorry for the slight diversion, had to point out great advice.

You mean THWN for all that wire outdoors right? Unless I'm mistaken all outdoor wiring in conduit has to be (W)et marked / rated.

 

[Dave911]

You mean THWN for all that wire outdoors right? Unless I'm mistaken all outdoor wiring in conduit has to be (W)et marked / rated.

I think THHN and THWN is basically the same wire. I know that years ago they were always different wires. I think I have seen some that is also MTW rated.

I can't recall seeing any recently that wasn't dual rated. When a big company wants to make millions of feet of wire for general consumption, why not multi rate it if it facilitates sales. Once a wire line is setup it might not stop running for for more than a few minutes everything 3+ hours for splices, for weeks at a time, while running 2000 feet per minute. Its a 24x7 operation.

 

[Lighthouse Beacon]

Updated ticket with Sungold Today

 

[42OhmsPA]

You mean THWN for all that wire outdoors right? Unless I'm mistaken all outdoor wiring in conduit has to be (W)et marked / rated.

Correct.
To be really specific I used the wire linked below but I would have used wet rated THWN if I didn't have spools of the wire from Greg's.

10 AWG Tinned Marine Primary Wire - Greg's Marine Wire Supply

Product Code: 10 AWG

gregsmarinewiresupply.com

 

[zanydroid]

The main reason I type THHN all the time is b/c it's easier to type, and typing either one (THWN vs THHN) makes me feel like an a-hole in different ways.

I mean we should technically be typing THHN-2/THWN-2.

 

[Kenny_]

View attachment 176443

Updated ticket with Sungold Today

Sure Seems that way!

 

[Dave911]

The main reason I type THHN all the time is b/c it's easier to type, and typing either one (THWN vs THHN) makes me feel like an a-hole in different ways.

I mean we should technically be typing THHN-2/THWN-2.

Yes, and "THHN" much easier to say as well !!! No one says grab a roll of THWN-2 !!!

 

[zanydroid]

Yes, and "THHN" much easier to say as well !!! No one says grab a roll of THWN-2 !!!

Try going to the supply house order desk and say the full name of everything while placing the order. You know, just to be the best kind of correct.

 

[Dave911]

Try going to the supply house order desk and say the full name of everything while placing the order. You know, just to be the best kind of correct.

Yep, because you know those Supply house guys are OCD. Details are everything to them.
Make sure you ask them how many strands are in the wire they stock.
If they knock over their coffee cup so it runs towards you, you are getting on their good side.
If they aren't swearing, they aren't happy!
Just make sure you are ready to duck if they get really happy!

 

[zanydroid]

Make sure you ask them how many strands are in the wire they stock.

Now this is actually relevant though. There's minimum strand count requirements in PV cable for the common use cases. Dunno if they would stock wire that is non compliant though.

 

[Dave911]

I'm shopping for inverters and so far this SRNE 10KW is at the top of my list.

What is the best way to obtain this unit?
Via Sungold, PowMR or direct? I really don't care about the color or cosmetics.

Its crazy that this unit is 10KW for about $1500 while the Lux Power unit is going for about 4x the price.
I don't believe these units can be paralleled, right? Is there any talk of that? Or has anyone noticed anything in the connections or software that indicate that might be possible in the future?

If they can't be paralleled, then I will likely obtain one of these, and power it from a breaker off my existing 200 amp main panel and power a subpanel with the inverter. Then move circuits from my main panel to the subpanel as my installation progresses.
Then at some point, probably add a second inverter and a second subpanel and continue to do the same thing. The loads I want to keep on the grid, like the shop air compressor, machines and welder would stay on the grid. I don't want to have my welder trip out an inverter and shutdown my house power. (The wife would be annoyed!)
Does anyone see a problem with this concept?

 

[Kenny_]

I got the Sungold version on sale, free shipping a few weeks ago. Loving it....

The minor problems I've had are that the WIfi Totally Sucks and Sungold support are worthless....
I got Solar Assistant set up and loving it.

Only thing I'm still having a minor issue with is seeing the individual battery stats/info. Solar Assistant support has apparently not worked with the Sungold batteries... I haven't given up...one more possibility in a cable arriving today.

 

[zanydroid]

LuxPower 6K can be paralleled and has UL1741 (well, the SS version does, I don't know about in general). It is not weather proof. It costs about the same as SRNE10K.

The LuxPower 12K (SS version) has UL9540, can be paralleled, and is weather proof. It also has the 200A transfer capability built in, which is a couple hundred bucks of discrete components. So add a couple $100s here and there for the additional features and it starts to look better. The UL9540 with non-proprietary batteries is probably worth $2K value wise given where the market is.

I think 42Ohms's thread talks about potentially using two parallel SRNE10Ks, on separate parts of electrical system, to go above 10kW.

 

[Dave911]

Both are UL1741. But for roughly $150 more, the SRNE delivers 10KW vs the 6KW of the Luxpower. That's a big difference!
The SRNE can deliver 66% more continuous power than the Luxpower 6K, so it is an apples vs oranges comparison?

Its probably better to compare the Luxpower 12K to the SRNE 10K. I can install 2 - SRNE 10K units for about $1600 x 2 = $3200 whereas 2 - Luxpower 12K units would be $5200 x 2 = $10,400.
That is a crazy price difference. I could buy 6 - SRNE units for less than the price of 2 Luxpower 12K / EG4 18KPV units.

I'm not totally sold on the idea of paralleling units to get more capacity. From a reliability standpoint, if I do something dumb and destroy something and the inverters are in parallel, its possible I am going to destroy two inverters at the same time. If they are separate, that's a lot harder to do. I've been involved in controls and drive technology for a long time. I have seen situations that have destroyed hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of high end controls and drives. Lightning, contaminates, wiring mistakes, etc. Stuff happens.

Mistakes happen. I'd much rather pop a $1600 unit rather than a $5200 unit.

 

[cs1234]

Both are UL1741. But for roughly $150 more, the SRNE delivers 10KW vs the 6KW of the Luxpower. That's a big difference!
The SRNE can deliver 66% more continuous power than the Luxpower 6K, so it is an apples vs oranges comparison?

Its probably better to compare the Luxpower 12K to the SRNE 10K. I can install 2 - SRNE 10K units for about $1600 x 2 = $3200 whereas 2 - Luxpower 12K units would be $5200 x 2 = $10,400.
That is a crazy price difference. I could buy 6 - SRNE units for less than the price of 2 Luxpower 12K / EG4 18KPV units.

I'm not totally sold on the idea of paralleling units to get more capacity. From a reliability standpoint, if I do something dumb and destroy something and the inverters are in parallel, its possible I am going to destroy two inverters at the same time. If they are separate, that's a lot harder to do. I've been involved in controls and drive technology for a long time. I have seen situations that have destroyed hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of high end controls and drives. Lightning, contaminates, wiring mistakes, etc. Stuff happens.

Mistakes happen. I'd much rather pop a $1600 unit rather than a $5200 unit.

What you say makes sense, but the battery certs are something to consider. It's insane that we've let our politicians be lobbied to the point where this is the price difference. I'm pretty sure they are both close to the same safety in regards to batteries if using comms, the UL9540a / UL9540 certificate is not worth 3 times the price for the added testing / assurances, it's asinine.

Hopefully that new UL9540 (DC powered) cert comes in and gets into all the AHJ's and puts an end to this nonsense.

 

[Dave911]

What you say makes sense, but the battery certs are something to consider. It's insane that we've let our politicians be lobbied to the point where this is the price difference. I'm pretty sure they are both close to the same safety in regards to batteries if using comms, the UL9540a / UL9540 certificate is not worth 3 times the price for the added testing / assurances, it's asinine.

Hopefully that new UL9540 (DC powered) cert comes in and gets into all the AHJ's and puts an end to this nonsense.

Apparently I don't understand the UL9540 standard.

I read this:

UL 9540A Test Method for Battery Energy Storage Systems (BESS)

Learn how UL Solutions’ innovative testing under the UL 9540A test method can help accelerate compliance and enhance safety.

www.ul.com

And it sounds like that is to limit the capacity to 50KWHR unless some additional fire safety dividers are put into place, blah blah blah ??

How does that relate to an inverter?

 

[zanydroid]

I'm not totally sold on the idea of paralleling units to get more capacity. From a reliability standpoint, if I do something dumb and destroy something and the inverters are in parallel, its possible I am going to destroy two inverters at the same time. If they are separate, that's a lot harder to do. I've been involved in controls and drive technology for a long time. I have seen situations that have destroyed hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of high end controls and drives. Lightning, contaminates, wiring mistakes, etc. Stuff happens.

Sure, it depends on how much you want to air-gap things.

Apparently I don't understand the UL9540 standard.

There's a lot to it. And it's not necessarily aligned perfectly with building code. Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. For instance default limit of one battery stack in residential code is 20kWh, but that doesn't round properly with 14.3kWh and 5.2kWh form factor

The painful part of UL9540 right now is that the vast majority of systems require the inverter and battery to be tested as a unit (AC ESS effectively). If you look at the UL9540 cert from EG4 it lists a huge number of SKUs, covering all the combinations.

The UL9540 DC ESS is a clause that lets you certify just the battery, along with instructions on how to safely access it via a DC interface (it's permissive rather than prescriptive, gives some suggestions). With this variant you only need to pair it with a UL1741 inverter to have a code compliant ESS. The problem is nobody has one yet AFAIK, and apparently nobody on reddit cares enough to tell me what's in the pipeline or even ask what it is.

18kpv is UL9540 and also UL1741 grid tie (the off grid ones that are UL1741 are most likely not grid tie. Unfotunately I'm not sure how to decipher the cert to figure out which subset is covered).

 

[42OhmsPA]

I'm shopping for inverters and so far this SRNE 10KW is at the top of my list.

What is the best way to obtain this unit?
Via Sungold, PowMR or direct? I really don't care about the color or cosmetics.

Its crazy that this unit is 10KW for about $1500 while the Lux Power unit is going for about 4x the price.
I don't believe these units can be paralleled, right? Is there any talk of that? Or has anyone noticed anything in the connections or software that indicate that might be possible in the future?

If they can't be paralleled, then I will likely obtain one of these, and power it from a breaker off my existing 200 amp main panel and power a subpanel with the inverter. Then move circuits from my main panel to the subpanel as my installation progresses.
Then at some point, probably add a second inverter and a second subpanel and continue to do the same thing. The loads I want to keep on the grid, like the shop air compressor, machines and welder would stay on the grid. I don't want to have my welder trip out an inverter and shutdown my house power. (The wife would be annoyed!)
Does anyone see a problem with this concept?

I went direct because SGP didn't have it available, I didn't care for the powmr color or higher price and the SRNE rep on alibaba seemed to be very helpful and did not hesitate to say they didn't know something but would ask someone else (the surge capacity for example).
They are apparently going to be releasing a split phase version that is able to be paralleled but no word on a specific date. There are markings on the current case for parallel but I doubt the hardware supports it.

Your other option would be to order the 5kw 120v units that can be run in parallel, up to 6, and get split phase.
I see no issues feeding separate panels from each split phase version, this would also give you redundancy if one were to have issues.