Supreme Court to take on Vaccine Mandates.

[MurphyGuy]

Looks like its headed to SCOTUS..

U.S. Supreme Court to take up Biden vaccine mandate cases

The U.S. Supreme Court agreed on Wednesday to take up disputes over the Biden administration's nationwide vaccine-or-testing COVID-19 mandate for large businesses and a separate vaccine requirement for healthcare workers.

www.reuters.com

Lots of interesting perspectives on this one and I know what most people are going to say about it..

Left = Mandates are good we need to protect everyone.

Right = Mandates bad, individual choice is more important.

The supreme court justices shouldn't even be called justices, they should be called extrapolation experts. The reason is because their job is basically to extrapolate the effects of laws as they predict their use in society.

Questions for the left:
If we allow the gov to mandate the covid vaccine, it will set a new precedent.. What happens when they want to mandate a vaccine that has a higher rate of severe adverse side effects? While the covid vaccines might only harm 1/1000 or 1/10,000 and end up saving far far more lives, what happens when they want to mandate a vaccine with a 1/100 chance of making you sterile? Or a vaccine with a severe side effect rate of 1/50? Or 1/5 ? At what point do YOU think the line should be drawn where individual rights are more important than public safety and how do you come to see that line as reasonable?

Questions for the right:
If we tell the gov that they can not mandate a vaccine, at what point do you draw the line? Should someone with tuberculosis be allowed to roam free and enter public spaces? What if someone could have "possibly" been exposed to Ebola or some other highly contagious virus for which there is no cure? Conservative attitudes were strongly against quarantines and shutting down businesses. What if Covid was far deadlier and killed 1 in 10 people? Would your attitude change then?
At what point should my individual rights be curtailed to protect your loved ones?
How do YOU draw this line?

 

[svetz]

If we allow the gov to mandate the covid vaccine, it will set a new precedent.

False argument. Some vaccinations are already mandatory. [ref]

What happens when they want to mandate a vaccine that has a higher rate of severe adverse side effects?

False argument. Higher rate? There have only been 3 cases in total out of hundreds of millions, all blood-clotting related from the J&J. ref

What happens when they want to mandate a vaccine with a 1/100 chance of making you sterile? Or a vaccine with a severe side effect rate of 1/50? Or 1/5 ?

Ridiculous argument. We do recall elections in America. Other countries have uprisings.

At what point do YOU think the line should be drawn where individual rights are more important than public safety

Wrong Focus: It's not individual rights against public safety. It's your rights vs. my rights. At what right point do you have the right to kill me because you feel you must socialize even though you don't feel well?

If we tell the gov that they can not mandate a vaccine, at what point do you draw the line?

When there's the proper balance between your rights and my rights. There was a case of an Italian dentist that had to have a vaccination card to attend a soccer game. So, he took a fake arm in with him to get injected. He did this because he didn't want to be vaccinated and yet wanted to attend social events. His personal needs came before everyone else's. Rather than break the law, what he should have done is start a league for the unvaccinated (but who would go? those people might be contagious ; -).

Should someone with tuberculosis be allowed to roam free and enter public spaces?

Sure, if they're not contagious. If treated, they're only contagious for 2 to 3 weeks [ref].

What if someone could have "possibly" been exposed to Ebola or some other highly contagious virus for which there is no cure?

Long accepted doctrine is to quarantine them, that is not let them spread the contagion.

Conservative attitudes were strongly against quarantines and shutting down businesses. What if Covid was far deadlier and killed 1 in 10 people? Would your attitude change then?

Wrong focus. It is already far deadlier than 1 in 10 if you selectively pick your group. In our society, there are many people for whom Covid is practically a death sentence as they are at high risk (e.g. immunosuppressive cancer treatments, chronic lung diseases).

I was for the quarantine and believe the only reason it didn't work was large numbers ignored it (and we still let planes fly internationally and can't control our borders). The problem is people won't believe how bad it is until it's too late and so they will not alter their personal behavior. They have no knowledge or concern for the people that are most likely to die if they do get it; they just don't realize how their personal choices affect others. Most are nice people and wouldn't dream of killing others, they just don't understand they could be typhoid Mary.

 

[BMcL]

Here's what will destroy the government's case in favor of forcing vaccination.
Although the number of covid cases and hospitalizations is trending up ; the death rate has plumetted.

They are pretending we are in an emergency situation.
The truth is we are seeing the end of this pandemic.
They are panicking and doubling-down on the same fear porn that isn't working anymore.
Americans are FED UP.

COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics

Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities. Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.

www.cdc.gov

 

[svetz]

...Americans are FED UP....

Yes, fed up with idiots that don't get vaccinated and perpetuate the pandemic, breed new strains, and hurt the economy.
Fed up with spreading false information on how dangerous vaccination is when there's no reason for it.

There are no reasons to not get vaccinated.

The mandate is political, and that's something different. It is possible to be for the vaccine and against the mandate. The question there is more does the government have the right to protect idiots from doing stupid things? The answer seems to be yes although it usually takes a number of deaths to get there (e.g., seat belts, motorcycle helmets, not drinking while driving, not smoking while pumping gas) and sometimes they get repealed anyway.

 

[BMcL]

Yes, fed up with idiots that don't get vaccinated and perpetuate the pandemic, breed new strains, and hurt the economy.
Fed up with spreading false information on how dangerous vaccination is when there's no reason for it.

There are no reasons to not get vaccinated.

The mandate is political, and that's something different. It is possible to be for the vaccine and against the mandate. The question there is more does the government have the right to protect idiots from doing stupid things?

You seem to not be informed about side effects and that young people have no need to fear this virus ? But young men should fear heart problems from the vax.

Making blanket rules for everyone when only those 70+ and older are in danger ?

Last time I checked , this is America and forcing people to do anything takes PROOF of some king of danger or emergency,
which you DON'T HAVE.
I imagine even after the SCOTUS rules against your totalitarian opinion, you'll still tell us how stupid we are for not trusting the
endless booster shots which are inevitable.

 

[svetz]

You seem to not be informed ...

Funny how the misinformed always think that... not sure why I'm bothering to respond since you're just going to ignore facts because they differ from your opinions. But for others....

about side effects and that young people have no need to fear this virus ? But young men should fear heart problems from the vax.

Because a lot of viruses cause myocarditis too? Or because studies have shown that even those it's rare to get it from the vaccine those that do recover quickly? [ref] That the benefits far outweigh the risks? [ref]

Oh guess what, getting COVID causes it too, it's not an either/or situation. [ref]
And you know... the other post-COVID conditions are more frequent, more problematic, and not as well understood. [ref]

Making blanket rules for everyone when only those 70+ and older are in danger ?

Because only 70 years get cancer, have chronic lung disease, or any of a myriad of issues? What a load of rubish. 12 year olds get cancer.
And, why shouldn't you care about 70 year olds and do what you can to help them live longer?
Who gave anyone a license to be more important than anyone else? That you don't care about others says a lot about you, and it's not nice stuff.

Last time I checked , this is America and forcing people to do anything takes PROOF of some king of danger or emergency,

There is proof people die from COVID.
What you're arguing is you'd be okay with ebola being mandated because the numbers would be higher. So you have no moral objection to the principle of mandates, you just want to couch numbers around it to make your fears sound reasonable to yourself. No skin off your nose how many people die.

I imagine even after the SCOTUS rules against your totalitarian opinion

Pity you couldn't take the time to actually read my post. I said the mandate was a different issue from the vaccine.
Of course, if so many people weren't idiots and responsibly got vaccinated the government wouldn't have to consider mandating it.

The reason for repealing the motorcycle helmets in some cases is the person who dies is the guy not wearing the helmet. If only you were at risk of dying I'd be all for you not getting vaccinated. The problem is you're not, you'll not only spread it to others but could create a new variant. Even worse, if you're social (e.g., go to church, talk to people, visit the grocery store, go shopping, go to a bar, go to a movie/restaurant) you could be a "superspreader". Each person you spread it to spreads it to more. And now Omicron is about twice as contagious as delta so one person can spread it to even more people.

People don't even have to die from COVID to be affected... just crowded hospitals and overworked staff can kill anybody in or that needs a hospital.

Not getting vaccinated is just a foolish selfish fear. Being against the mandate is about limiting the government's power over people (which they wouldn't need to consider if people were responsible). So, if you want to look at who to blame for the mandate, go find the unvaccinated.

 

[Bob B]

Yes, fed up with idiots that don't get vaccinated and perpetuate the pandemic, breed new strains, and hurt the economy.
Fed up with spreading false information on how dangerous vaccination is when there's no reason for it.

There are no reasons to not get vaccinated.

The mandate is political, and that's something different. It is possible to be for the vaccine and against the mandate. The question there is more does the government have the right to protect idiots from doing stupid things? The answer seems to be yes although it usually takes a number of deaths to get there (e.g., seat belts, motorcycle helmets, not drinking while driving, not smoking while pumping gas) and sometimes they get repealed anyway.

Sorry .... I know it is comforting to think it is that simple ..... but, it is not. There ARE reasons to not get vaccinated.
Would you want your wife to get vaccinated if pregnant in the first trimester? Studies have shown a VERY high miscarriage rate for women in their first trimester.
There are other individual reasons .... including the need to go off immunosuppressant medicines before getting the vaccine if you want it to actually work.
I won't try to go into ALL the possible reasons .... but there ARE legitimate reasons. Please don't get trapped into vilifying those who have chosen not to get vaccinated.

Saying there is no reason in a loud way doesn't make it true.

 

[Cdkipp]

Would you want your wife to get vaccinated if pregnant in the first trimester? Studies have shown a VERY high miscarriage rate for women in their first trimester.

"Our study found no evidence of an increased risk for early pregnancy loss after Covid-19 vaccination and adds to the findings from other reports supporting Covid-19 vaccination during pregnancy." https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2114466

 

[Bob B]

"Our study found no evidence of an increased risk for early pregnancy loss after Covid-19 vaccination and adds to the findings from other reports supporting Covid-19 vaccination during pregnancy." https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2114466

I'm not going to get into another argument about the minutia in a single study .... A while back, I saw an analyzation of a study that seemed to show a low rate in the first trimester ..... but they were skewing the numbers by measuring all pregnant women. When adjusted to only those in the first trimester is was about a 75% miscarriage rate.

My point is more general .... If my wife was pregnant in her first trimester ... there is no way we would have her get the vaccine at that time .... Would you?

 

[Cdkipp]

Making blanket rules for everyone when only those 70+ and older are in danger ?

 

[Cdkipp]

That is complete BS. A lie. And this is a first-trimester study.

 

[Bob B]

That is complete BS. A lie. And this is a first-trimester study.

I'm not going to go back and find that again .... but you didn't answer my question

 

[Cdkipp]

I'm not going to get into another argument about the minutia in a single study .... A while back, I saw an analyzation of a study that seemed to show a low rate in the first trimester ..... but they were skewing the numbers by measuring all pregnant women. When adjusted to only those in the first trimester is was about a 75% miscarriage rate.

My point is more general .... If my wife was pregnant in her first trimester ... there is no way we would have her get the vaccine at that time .... Would you?

"The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, or ACOG, recommends that all eligible persons 12 years and older—including pregnant and lactating individuals—receive a COVID-19 vaccine series,” https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering...ts-knew-about-covid-19-vaccines-and-pregnancy

 

[Cdkipp]

I'm not going to get into another argument about the minutia in a single study .... A while back, I saw an analyzation of a study that seemed to show a low rate in the first trimester ..... but they were skewing the numbers by measuring all pregnant women. When adjusted to only those in the first trimester is was about a 75% miscarriage rate.

My point is more general .... If my wife was pregnant in her first trimester ... there is no way we would have her get the vaccine at that time .... Would you?

Of course!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[Cdkipp]

You seem to not be informed about side effects and that young people have no need to fear this virus ? But young men should fear heart problems from the vax.

Making blanket rules for everyone when only those 70+ and older are in danger ?

Last time I checked , this is America and forcing people to do anything takes PROOF of some king of danger or emergency,
which you DON'T HAVE.
I imagine even after the SCOTUS rules against your totalitarian opinion, you'll still tell us how stupid we are for not trusting the
endless booster shots which are inevitable.

BMcl Florida had 26,811 cases today. I believe YOU were the one saying De Santis solved Covid while I was saying Covid comes in waves. OOPS>

 

[Bob B]

This isn't the site I found the information before ... but somewhat explains the numbers.

Do Vaccinated Pregnant Women in Their First or Second Trimester have an 81.8% Chance of Miscarriage?

Guest Post by Martin Armstrong You have to wonder why universities are suddenly investigating if the vaccines are causing abortions. The government appears to have been playing around with the numb…

www.theburningplatform.com

I don't know anything about that site ... it was just a quick search. Where I found the information before had a more detailed analysis of the study .... but I'm not interested in spending time finding it again .... I've got a brisket I have to prep to cook.

But ... You've already diverted the thread away from the general point ... there are people who have good reason for not wanting to get vaccinated.

 

[Cdkipp]

This isn't the site I found the information before ... but somewhat explains the numbers.

Do Vaccinated Pregnant Women in Their First or Second Trimester have an 81.8% Chance of Miscarriage?

Guest Post by Martin Armstrong You have to wonder why universities are suddenly investigating if the vaccines are causing abortions. The government appears to have been playing around with the numb…

www.theburningplatform.com

I don't know anything about that site ... it was just a quick search. Where I found the information before had a more detailed analysis of the study .... but I'm not interested in spending time finding it again .... I've got a brisket I have to prep to cook.

But ... You've already diverted the thread away from the general point ... there are people who have good reason for not wanting to get vaccinated.

You should just be deeply ashamed of yourself. The study they cite says "A total of 712 pregnancies (86.1%) resulted in a live birth". That is well within the normal range as confirmed by subsequent studies. READ.

 

[Cdkipp]

This isn't the site I found the information before ... but somewhat explains the numbers.

Do Vaccinated Pregnant Women in Their First or Second Trimester have an 81.8% Chance of Miscarriage?

Guest Post by Martin Armstrong You have to wonder why universities are suddenly investigating if the vaccines are causing abortions. The government appears to have been playing around with the numb…

www.theburningplatform.com

I don't know anything about that site ... it was just a quick search. Where I found the information before had a more detailed analysis of the study .... but I'm not interested in spending time finding it again .... I've got a brisket I have to prep to cook.

But ... You've already diverted the thread away from the general point ... there are people who have good reason for not wanting to get vaccinated.

And yes it is a right-wing blog.

 

[Cdkipp]

But ... You've already diverted the thread away from the general point ... there are people who have good reason for not wanting to get vaccinated.

No, I am diverting from your misinformation. https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-per...es-dont-raise-miscarriage-risk-3-studies-show

 

[Bob B]

You should just be deeply ashamed of yourself. The study they cite says "A total of 712 pregnancies (86.1%) resulted in a live birth". That is well within the normal range as confirmed by subsequent studies. READ.

As usual ... YOU are the one misrepresenting information. I already know you don't have any shame.
I am copying a snippet of information from that article that you misrepresented.