I'm not sure why that version isn't listed in the doc listing the different versions and what had changed? https://diysolarforum.com/threads/eg4-18kpv-q-a-general-thread.61636/post-844652
Terrible Signature Solar / EG4 18Kpv Experience - Returning and Replaced with Sol-Ark 15k
- Thread starter Watts Happening
- Start date
cs1234
Solar Wizard
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It's the special influencer revision of the firmware.
jasonojordan
New Member
Not in an attempt to detract from this thread and its value can you clarify how you feel sharing email threads with a company is different then sharing direct messages from a vender to the purchaser of one of their products is any different? I could be incorrect here but I believe earlier in this thread you posted a couple messages saying how you felt it was in poor taste of the OP for sharing screen shots private/direct messages with various members of SS? Are emails and direct messages not the same thing? I message between two parties?
To say that then call for people to follow this format you have laid out goes against what you previously had said. So either I am missing something here or you have no had a change of heart on if the OP was out of line or not with this? Just posing this question so we can get clarity for others when the next thread comes with a issue with a product and the response or lack there of from a vendor occurs.
As others have pointed out it is not the OP job to provide data/proof for you to base a video off of. It sounds like based off your posts in this thread you have enough pull to get ahold of the unit yourself once its back to SS. Are you worried that once it gets back to SS something will happen to it that you either never get the chance to look at it or that it will not be in the state that it was returned in so you can not have a fair chance to recreate the issue? If so that screams of an even bigger issue? I sure hope that is not what you were getting at here.
As a retailer of items or a manufacture of items its a question of when not if a issue arises that puts you between a rock and a hard place. It is how you handle that situation and fix it that determines how harshly your company suffers from the backlash weather warranted or not this is how it works in this world of social media driven mobs (Point and case Budweiser's fiasco).
End of the day its well within the right of the OP to call it quits when he wants to. Being someone who is curious by nature as yourself as to what has caused this issue when I myself can not recreate it with supposedly the same hardware would drive me crazy as well! But that being said I feel you have many avenues available to you if you really wanted to get that hardware in your hands to solve the mystery and blasting a forum member over his methods of proving his point and when he is no longer willing to continue the troubleshooting process because he is happy with the actions of SS granting the refund he was looking for are not it.
This post has gotten alot longer then I intended but its my view that the OP posted all this to share an issue he and ss/lux were stumped on as well as to air his frustrations with the poor handing of the support and the attitudes of the members of SS he delt with. It appears they have fixed his issues with the attitudes portrayed to him in at least some regard and he is happy with returning the unit for a refund. The OP has kept a much more level head then I would say 90% of the people posting in this thread could of held including myself so I commend him for that.
WindWizard
Solar Enthusiast
I found this thread to be rather interesting in a number of ways:
OP had a simple requirement. Use the batteries with the inverter from 3pm-9pm to power around 1500 watts of load.
At 9pm then switch the inverter to pass through. In other words use the grid to power the 1500 watts of load.
At 10pm then charge the batteries while powering the 1500 watts of load.
That sounds simple enough to do. The OP received an inverter from SS that failed to do that.
I was very impressed that SS would spend the amount of time to try to make it work. I am not at all impressed with their methods though. Changing the firmware to try to jury rig a inverter into doing what it should have done out of the box to me is just plain not acceptable. It can lead to multiple problems. It implies that every unit has a different firmware and then when a field engineer upgrades it then it no longer works.
My thought is that if you have a defective unit then it needs to be replaced. I have two thought patterns either the OP had a defective unit or the inverter has a design flaw. He provided plenty of evidence that the unit was defective. From what he described the unit would do whatever it felt like doing. It would start to sell power back to the grid which presents multiple problems. Who wants to get involved with the Power companies and have them threaten to turn off your power because you have a defective inverter? So to me this was a major issue. The fact that the inverter did not have a sense of time was also disturbing. If you program your alarm to go off at 6 am, then is it okay to have your alarm go off at 9:21 am?
The OP received an inverter that did not do what it was suppose to do which we really do not know if it was just a defective unit or not. This is where SS really dropped the ball. They could have setup a unit and then programmed it to do as the OP was trying to do. I can see the frustration from the OP because who wants to remove a 100 lb inverter from the wall and then package it up again?
The only thing that really bothers me is that we have a lot of assumptions without any real facts.
1- Is this a design flaw or is it a defective inverter? If the OP would have returned the inverter and then got another one then we would know whether it is a design flaw of a defective inverter. Now I am just left wondering.
2- Would I purchase from SS after reading about this? Probably but I am not really sure because it seems that their support team is overwhelmed and there is not a clear policy on how to handle issues that come up. It is great that they have a USA office and you actually do get support. I just have a problem with changing the firmware for a defective unit. I think a more appropriate response would be for the Engineers at the company to simply program a inverter to run as the OP needed to have which is rather simple in my opinion. Some of the responses from SS were totally inappropriate. I could sense a great deal of frustration from both parties.
What would be nice since @Will Prowse has a similar unit and wants to do a video, If Will could disconnect his Solar coming into the inverter and then program his inverter to run a 1500 watt load from 3pm-9pm on batteries. Then at 9:01pm switch the inverter to pass through and then at 10pm then run the load and also charge the batteries. If Will Prowse does this then we will all know that this inverter operates properly and the OP just got unlucky.
OP had a simple requirement. Use the batteries with the inverter from 3pm-9pm to power around 1500 watts of load.
At 9pm then switch the inverter to pass through. In other words use the grid to power the 1500 watts of load.
At 10pm then charge the batteries while powering the 1500 watts of load.
That sounds simple enough to do. The OP received an inverter from SS that failed to do that.
I was very impressed that SS would spend the amount of time to try to make it work. I am not at all impressed with their methods though. Changing the firmware to try to jury rig a inverter into doing what it should have done out of the box to me is just plain not acceptable. It can lead to multiple problems. It implies that every unit has a different firmware and then when a field engineer upgrades it then it no longer works.
My thought is that if you have a defective unit then it needs to be replaced. I have two thought patterns either the OP had a defective unit or the inverter has a design flaw. He provided plenty of evidence that the unit was defective. From what he described the unit would do whatever it felt like doing. It would start to sell power back to the grid which presents multiple problems. Who wants to get involved with the Power companies and have them threaten to turn off your power because you have a defective inverter? So to me this was a major issue. The fact that the inverter did not have a sense of time was also disturbing. If you program your alarm to go off at 6 am, then is it okay to have your alarm go off at 9:21 am?
The OP received an inverter that did not do what it was suppose to do which we really do not know if it was just a defective unit or not. This is where SS really dropped the ball. They could have setup a unit and then programmed it to do as the OP was trying to do. I can see the frustration from the OP because who wants to remove a 100 lb inverter from the wall and then package it up again?
The only thing that really bothers me is that we have a lot of assumptions without any real facts.
1- Is this a design flaw or is it a defective inverter? If the OP would have returned the inverter and then got another one then we would know whether it is a design flaw of a defective inverter. Now I am just left wondering.
2- Would I purchase from SS after reading about this? Probably but I am not really sure because it seems that their support team is overwhelmed and there is not a clear policy on how to handle issues that come up. It is great that they have a USA office and you actually do get support. I just have a problem with changing the firmware for a defective unit. I think a more appropriate response would be for the Engineers at the company to simply program a inverter to run as the OP needed to have which is rather simple in my opinion. Some of the responses from SS were totally inappropriate. I could sense a great deal of frustration from both parties.
What would be nice since @Will Prowse has a similar unit and wants to do a video, If Will could disconnect his Solar coming into the inverter and then program his inverter to run a 1500 watt load from 3pm-9pm on batteries. Then at 9:01pm switch the inverter to pass through and then at 10pm then run the load and also charge the batteries. If Will Prowse does this then we will all know that this inverter operates properly and the OP just got unlucky.
I think there is a difference between private messages on forum/Facebook/Instagram or text messages versus formal business correspondence. But these distributors are using the forums private messages to contact and support customers, so I suppose it's fair. But I think all of these companies should create a support case with one line of communication, with one employee, so there is less confusion. Having multiple customer support conversations with different solutions being offered is not professional. I think a private message here on the forum should be a link to a email response or support messaging system on their website so that the problem can be assessed and tracked properly. When there is a support issue and they are talking about going camping and having multiple solutions for a single set of problems just doesn't make sense to me. I think there needs to be a professional system in place.
This would help everyone. And when someone posts it on the forum, it would be professional and have direction. Having multiple customer service reps changing settings and trying different firmware to fix the issue just doesn't sit right with me. There should be a single support case with a line of communication for which we can reference. When posting evidence on the forum, I just don't see how private messages in the forum should ever be an option.
But that's my opinion. I think it's a more professional approach and allows for better accumulation of data for historical purposes to fix issues with these units.
Yeah good points you're making. I agree. And if I want to make videos with criticisms against these companies, I need to have hard evidence and verification of data. It could still be a hardware issue and the data logs could be incorrect. Imagine if a bad ct is causing this entire issue and no one has spent five seconds just to check. This remote management of software implies there are no hardware faults and I am trying to figure out what is wrong with the system.
I always feel obligation to share any issues I seen here on the forum with my YouTube audience because I want to expose whateher issues these products have. And I can't do that without hard evidence and decent testing.
And to assert a claim for which there is no evidence makes my job tough. And I still do not understand why people are contacting eg4 for support instead of luxpower. If I have an issue with sol ark I'm calling Sol ark. I wish we could see what luxpower has to say here.
Yeah I agree 100%. Absolutely.
jasonojordan
New Member
Get your stance on this just curious on where anyone here has ever asked you to blast any company over the issue in a video you produce as I think it was made pretty clear at least by the OP anyway that was the opposite of his intentions? He has stated quite to the contrary in all the interactions that I have seen here anyways, always wishing the product would of worked and that the customer support service would of been more seamless and painless.
Watts Happening
I call it like I see it.
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I think I speak for everyone when I say this: support is implied when the company puts their name on it and sells it to you.
Another point, at no point did anyone suggest I speak to anyone at Luxpower. Gilbert seemingly did his part out of his own free will.
Because that's my job here and I'm trying to figure out if my recent product recommendation is wrong. I just said that I like the 18K because I've had absolutely no issues with it. Whenever I make a position about a product I have to defend it with evidence. If someone's having an issue I need to get to the bottom of it so I can change my recommendation. I can only do that with evidence. The whole firmware thing is just such a disaster though. I cannot draw conclusions because the software is not consistent. And I cannot verify if it is a hardware issue because there's no way for us to measure it when it's boxed up. So I'm really at a loss of what to do. Once signature solar gets it I'm hoping they can figure out if it's defective.
Watts Happening
I call it like I see it.
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I understand that, but at this point I’d be lying if I said I was confident in their ability to test this thing as well as remain completely above board on the results in any meaningful way.
Just last night Markus was posting in this thread that the “engineers” had looked at the data and verified it in fact had “not backfed the grid”. The evidence he posted in support of this appeared to clearly suggest that claim was not true.
This is not intended to fan the flames, I’m simply pointing out the apparent fact that there may be a fair bit less understanding of the product over there than we are led to believe. This could indeed be a core cause of the haphazard support approach where nobody seems to have a similar approach, nor continuity of service.
Quattrohead
Emperor Of Solar
This was due to one firmware version that should never have been made available anyway. Someone somewhere leaked it.
Whoever you bought your unit from is the place you should be asking for support. When your Chrysler has a problem you don't go crying to Fiat about it even though they made it.
Believe me there are some people at signature solar that are working there nads off trying to get these issues sorted for everyone, remember we're talking about an entirely different time zone and language so they experience delays just like we experience delays when trying to get resolution from Aly ripoff sites for example.
Yes absolutely, but when I'm trouble shooting a product, I go to the manufacturer. I think of SS and CC and everyone else as distributors. If there is a defective product, they should return it quickly and pain free, and have a system in place for verifying when a product is defective. And that's it. If I buy a computer from a distributor, I am not contacting them for firmware updates. I'm contacting Microsoft or whoever coded it.
The biggest issue I see with this thread is that signature solar should have verified that you have an issue and returned it instantly without a restocking fee. That is the biggest takeaway in this whole thread for me personally. They need to have a method of collecting evidence in a single line of communication so that they can effectively differentiate a software issue from a defective hardware issue. If that evidence does not exist, then it could be user error. But having private messages and multiple firmwares makes everyone job difficult. I would have contacted luxpower immediately because I just don't believe that a customer support person would be able to figure out what's wrong.
I just had an issue with a internal lock mechanism on a safe that I own. I called up the safe shop that distributed it and they told me to call the manufacturer instantly. I called up the manufacturer and they had steps to figure out what was wrong, and what parts to send out.
jasonojordan
New Member
I hope they do as well. But unfortunately this is a you issue and not an OP issue. I get you wanting to defend your credibility on a product you gave a glowing review about and rightfully so based on your own experience with product. However, this is your job to make sure your review is correct and not the OP. As I said in my previous post to me it sounds like you have many avenues to get this device to you for the further testing and amending of your video if you decide its needed based off your finding. Having the OP do the work for you in a way you want it does is not the right way to go about it. This is my opinion and I am sure it will vary from others but that's just my take that the way you went about it with the OP was a bit off the mark.
Another Youtube content creator I follow in addition to your work is Linus. He has several videos in his long storied library of reviews that he has had to go back and either make a new video all together or simply amend with a short clip changing his stance on a product better or worse. A prime example of something he reviewed well and I myself purchased based off his reviews among others is the Sony HT A9. Turned out to have a very hard to look past flaw that Sony still to this day have not addressed.
I appreicate your videos and your work and your drive to give accurate and informed information. Just possibly be a bit more gentle in the future.
Cheers
Jason
Watts Happening
I call it like I see it.
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I don’t disagree with that, and think talking to Luxpower may indeed be a valid solution.
But again, this was never discussed, nor even hinted at. My (probably incorrect) assumption was that SS was providing the support, the product had been modified to their liking, whether that be the larger wire box or any special software changes and they were the people supporting it.
I never even looked up the contact information for Luxpower. Maybe someone from the company (I know there are at least one or two on the forums) can speak up and let us know what end users should be doing. Is Luxpower supporting this unit, or is that support segregated vs the units they sell directly etc.
Having that information available to everyone could be a helpful step.
Sorry about my responses earlier. Didn't mean to be mean or unfair. I just want to figure out what's going on and report it to others. But watts happening shouldn't be responsible for that. Sorry about that.
Quattrohead
Emperor Of Solar
No that is not the right way to think about it, I paid a USA distributor X amount more to get service and support from people that speak my language in my time zone. If I wanted to fuss with a manufacturer in a foreign land in a different time zone, I would have just bought it directly from them and saved myself some wedge.
I think signature solar should not try to diagnose issues here with threads or private messages, and instead link them to a customer support system so that they can accumulate data on the issue and provide one solution at a time. And if a refund is warranted, they can make it happen quickly.
Furthermore, if the dsitributor can't fix it, suggest going to the manufacturer to create a warranty claim with their customer support system.
Eco flow probably has the most impressive customer service support system in the DIY solar community. When was the last time you heard a complaint about their support? And their volume is absolutely massive. But again, they have a system in place that works. If you complain about EcoFlow in their Facebook group, they will refer you to their customer support system. They will not use private messages or figure out what your problem is in the thread. They will refer you to a single line of contact so that they can figure out what's wrong.
Furthermore, if the dsitributor can't fix it, suggest going to the manufacturer to create a warranty claim with their customer support system.
Eco flow probably has the most impressive customer service support system in the DIY solar community. When was the last time you heard a complaint about their support? And their volume is absolutely massive. But again, they have a system in place that works. If you complain about EcoFlow in their Facebook group, they will refer you to their customer support system. They will not use private messages or figure out what your problem is in the thread. They will refer you to a single line of contact so that they can figure out what's wrong.
Tulex
Solar Wizard
So I guess one thing we've learned here is that if you have an issue with your 15K or 18K, the approach to resolving that issue is different?
I can buy a Sol-Ark anywhere, but there isn't any expectation that I contact anyone but Sol-Ark if I have an issue.
I can buy an EG4 at 2 different places, which kind of makes it seem like their product, but should contact a totally different place if there is an issue. Well maybe. First I should call the place that sold it to me and see if they can resolve the issue? And it's on me to decide when they can't?
I purchased the 15K right before the 18K came out. I was a little bummed because I could have save a lot of money. But as I learn more, I'm not so bummed.
I can buy a Sol-Ark anywhere, but there isn't any expectation that I contact anyone but Sol-Ark if I have an issue.
I can buy an EG4 at 2 different places, which kind of makes it seem like their product, but should contact a totally different place if there is an issue. Well maybe. First I should call the place that sold it to me and see if they can resolve the issue? And it's on me to decide when they can't?
I purchased the 15K right before the 18K came out. I was a little bummed because I could have save a lot of money. But as I learn more, I'm not so bummed.
Watts Happening
I call it like I see it.
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I don’t disagree with that. One thing I would add that I believe is critical and ties it all together is this:
A company like ecoflow clearly has strong financial backing and evidently has a solid understanding of where investing their money benefits them most. I have owned businesses that have a similar structure to that of Signature Solar over the years and I found that it was very enticing to import a product at a rock bottom price from a manufacturer overseas. It also made it realistic, while I respect that SS has engineers, I don’t think they’re anywhere near creating an inverter from scratch and the importation of an existing product with some relatively minor changes eliminates a huge barrier to entry.
The flip side of that coin is that you’re relying on your supplier. You’re relying on their hardware, their software, their functionality claims etc. If any of that isn’t as it should be, and you hurried through any of your own internal testing, you QUICKLY find out just how inundated with support tickets you can be. Most of which you’ll struggle to fix because at the end of the day you are simply retailing a product you put your name on.
It’s a vicious cycle, you saved money and time up front, but you slapped a 10 year warranty on a product you have to support and RMA. You also have to help people get it working as advertised. So your up front savings end up costing you dearly on the back end. You find yourself scrambling to support customers, you’re trying to rapidly hire support staff, then you have to develop proper in house training of a product you didn’t even make, it becomes a nightmare. Each of those staff members has a perpetual salary, needs an office seat, a computer, sick time, a manager, the list goes on.
In my business ventures I learned this lesson early on and have since invested up front to eliminate as much as I can on the back end.
My best guess would be that either Ecoflow figured this process out a while back, or started with an experienced team that had previously seen it happen.
It’s not easy either way, both have their risks, it’s just a tough place to be in when you’ve got tons of units shipping and you’re “in it”. If business was easy, everyone would be doing it.
The idea sounds good in theory.
The problem that I have seen reading threads on here is people are only able to get support by begging for help from SS on HERE. According to their posts they were unable to get SS's attention or get thru to them until asking for help here.
Again that's my take on what I'm reading on here. Ive never bought anything from them so all I have to go on is what I'm reading here.
Example :
My EG4 6500EX Exploded on restart!!!!!
Don't wait keep trying. email is not working, I assume you mean by calling them? Anyway to get support in this Forum?
diysolarforum.com
Thanks to this forum, this issue got attention with signature solar and I now have an appointment with a support person. Hopefully it will be roses? and rainbows ? from here. Yes, there are some issues with support, but I have to believe they do have people that are trying and perhaps just over loaded...(benefit of the doubt). I will give an honest assessment on how this goes.
This is just one of the many threads like it. So I agree getting help directly is "ideal" I believe having the forum here does force vendors to put some effort forth the help some when they might of otherwise fallen thru the cracks.
Also since SS and anyone reading this stuff now knows what they say will come back to haunt them if they say something they might later regret I think anything said from this point forward should be expected to be shown if it helps someone prove they are not lying when they claim they were told "such and such" if a vendor claims otherwise.
Tulex
Solar Wizard
When you can get a unit shipped to you faster than support replies, that's an issue.The idea sounds good in theory.
The problem that I have seen reading threads on here is people are only able to get support by begging for help from SS on HERE. According to their posts they were unable to get SS's attention or get thru to them until asking for help here.
Again that's my take on what I'm reading on here. Ive never bought anything from them so all I have to go on is what I'm reading here.
Example :
My EG4 6500EX Exploded on restart!!!!!
Don't wait keep trying. email is not working, I assume you mean by calling them? Anyway to get support in this Forum?
This is just one of the many threads like it. So I agree getting help directly is "ideal" I believe having the forum here does force vendors to put some effort forth the help some when they might of otherwise fallen thru the cracks.
Also since SS and anyone reading this stuff now knows what they say will come back to haunt them if they say something they might later regret I think anything said from this point forward should be expected to be shown if it helps someone prove they are not lying when they claim they were told "such and such" if a vendor claims otherwise.
We live in a world of instant gratification. Very often, people can resolve issues faster through the forum than through support. If companies don't like issues aired online, they need to attend to them more quickly.
jasonojordan
New Member
I have run into this exact issue with the battery I have paired with my Solark and I got more help from this forum and its members then I did the person who sold it to me. Still to this day does not work the way it should with my Solark despite the help of this form and Solark I might add.
Good to knowAs a counterpoint, Victron specifically says not to contact them the manufacturer (although there is a Victron hosted community forum where Victron employees do frequent). You are supposed to work through your distributor
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