diy solar

diy solar

The Electrodacus SBMS thread (SBMS0, DSSR50, etc)

Dzl

Unofficial Forum Librarian & Perpetual Newbie
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
5,108
Location
West of the rockies
I am very interested in the Solar BMS (website | kickstarter | youtube | message board). Dacian (the creator), makes some great and very innovative and creative products, and puts a lot of work into making sure to provide documentation (SBMS0 Manual | SMBS40/120 Manual | DSSR20 Manual), and I very much respect and appreciate his commitment to open hardware and open source software!

While he does a very good job documenting the technical spec's and capabilities of the SBMS, his website and user manual lacks a clear conceptual level overview (use-case, context, broad contours, FAQ, and so on). For electrical engineers and seasoned electrical tinkerers, this commentary probably isn't necessary, but for many of us it is.

@FilterGuy recently put together a very useful document outlining the I/O on the new version of the SBMS0 (version v03d)
 
Last edited:
Add me to the list of users. Just got the SBMS0 hooked up about an hour ago. I have not had a chance to do anything interesting with it, but its reading my cells and showing me graphs and it's really gorgeous.

My plan is to have it trigger my Samlex Evo to charge/invert within parameters that I set using the SMBS0's configurable EXT IO pins and the EVO's ability to be controlled in this way. I'll need more hardware (perhaps just a shunt) and time to get that working.

I don't know anything about Dacian's background or life, but the idea of a guy in a little off-grid house in what looks like the middle of nowhere making really interesting little devices to meet his own needs and then selling them is admirable.
 
Last edited:
To kick things off here is the brief product description and a simplified system schematic of the SBMS0

Dacian @ ElectroDacus.com said:
Solar BMS (Solar Battery Management System) is a solar charge controller designed to replace the Lead Acid solar charge controllers most people use today in Offgrid, RV, Boats and multiple other applications with 12V and 24V systems.
Solar BMS can be used with 3 up to 8 Lithium cells in series (any type) or even supercapacitors.
Any number of parallel cells are no different from a single larger capacity cell so it will just count as one.
The new SBMS0 plus DSSR20 is replacing all other models and can handle up to 30kW of solar PV using multiple DSSR20.

Example System Schematic:

Screenshot_20200210_152758.png

It looks quite a bit different from the typical schematics I'm used to seeing with other BMS'

Specifications:

Screenshot_20200210_152605.png
 
Last edited:
I don't know anything about Dacian's background or life, but the idea of a guy in a little off-grid house in what looks like the middle of nowhere making really interesting little devices to meet his own needs and then selling them is admirable.

I feel the same! It is just very inspiring and makes me smile to know these products are being designed by a single guy in a little house he built himself in the Canadian Prairie somewhere, because he had an idea he thought was worth pursuing, and it was something he wanted/needed himself, but also wanted to share with the world and make available to the rest of us. It is very much an example of the beauty of the Open Source, Open Hardware, and DIY/maker mindsets/movements!

Add me to the list of users. Just got the SBMS0 hooked up about an hour ago. I have not had a chance to do anything interesting with it, but its reading my cells and showing me graphs and it's really gorgeous.

Maybe you can clarify something for me than. I read through the SBMS0 manual, but I it seems a lot of the finer points were lost on me. With a BMS I'm used to seeing a current rating listed in the specs (or an explicit mention of max current depending on the current rating of external relays). But afaik the SBMS0 doesn't mention either.

Is it conceptually different from other BMS' in this regard? Are you using relays to disconnect dis/charging? Or as the manual implies communicating directly with the charge and discharge sources and letting them handle physical dis/connection?
 
Last edited:
Is it conceptually different from other BMS' in this regard? Are you using relays to disconnect dis/charging? Or as the manual implies communicating directly with the charge and discharge sources and letting them handle physical dis/connection?

SBMS0 does require the SCC and inverter to have remote control capability to control charging / discharging. Generally an inverter with a toggle switch should work with some solder job even without a remote control functionality. However, some inverters have momentary switches and those won't work natively with SBMS0. I think you can use a relay to disconnect inverter / SCC but I've not tried it.

My Victron SCC (100/30) does support remote control but I'll lose the ability to have it communicate with Venus via VE Direct. I'm planning on using a Victron Battery Protect to disconnect SCC from battery instead, as BP does support remote control. I'm still waiting for my BP to come in before I can test it out though.
 
SBMS0 does require the SCC and inverter to have remote control capability to control charging / discharging.
Thanks that makes sense. I'm pretty clear on how the SBMS0 communicates with individual components, but I'm less clear on whether the SBMS0 only communicates with individual components or if it has any ability to completely cut charging/discharging to the battery (like most BMS' do-- either as a built in function or via Relays) and if there is a maximum current the BMS is rated for, or if it only depends on what you external components can handle.
 
Last edited:
Thanks that makes sense. I'm somewhat clear on how the SBMS0 communicates with individual components, but I'm less clear on whether the SBMS0 has any ability to completely cut charging/discharging to the battery (like most BMS' do-- either as a built in function or via Relays) and if there is a maximum current the BMS is rated for, or if it only depends on what you external components can handle.

My understanding is that SBMS0 does not cut charging / discharging by itself, unlike the more common BMS used on this site such as Daly. It does rely on external components to handle that instead. I think that's why you don't see the normal designation on how much current it can handle. Batrium Watchmon operates in similar fashion I believe although that costs 5x or more than SBMS0.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dzl
Interesting, I suppose there are pros and cons to this approach, but I'll have to ponder this for a bit. This approach seems pretty flexible and versatile in one way (the BMS will never be the bottleneck, and can work with lots of different devices), and in another sense not that flexible (your choice of components will be limited to those that support remote control.
 
While I've received the SBMS0 and 3 DSSR20's (& yes, they are indeed very nicely designed pieces of kit) and my panels, I'm still waiting on my cells so I've not had the opportunity to assemble everything and put it through its paces, but let me try to explain (as a non-engineer) how it works. I've posted a detailed schematic of my system (see link in my sig) that I'll refer to and that may help you "see" better than Dacian's schematic how it's designed to work.

His SBMS40 and 120 are all-in-one SCC's. In other words, you make battery, panel and load connections directly to the SBMS40 and 120, ergo they're rated ("40" and "120") for how much current that passes through them since the SBMS sits "inside" the charge and load circuit (much like the BMS's that Will reviews). Dacian's SBMS0 sits "outside" that circuit and relies on multiple DSSR20's (or any other charging devices that allow remote on/off switching) to manage charging (more on that in a bit), which has the advantage that the SBMS0 can be used to build or upgrade to any size system simply by adding as many DSSR20's (or other charging devices) you might need to accommodate your needs. You can add up to 30 DSSR20s for a whopping 600A of "incoming" - all w.o. need of a heat sync (as the 40 and 120 and most other BMS's need, again, because they're "inline"). He's also got logic in his SBMS0 to configure/split your array into 2 differently sized sub-arrays the SBMS0 mixes and matches to optimize charging given the amount of sun hitting your panels (more on that in a bit also).

So, how does the SBMS0 manage all this? First and foremost, it manages the health of your battery by monitoring and balancing (during both charging and discharging cycles) your pack's cells just like all the BMS's Will reviews. You can see it do this with the aid of the SBMS's very nicely designed and user friendly graphical UI on the display (and on a PC if you purchased the USB/WiFi option).

Second, it will cutoff loads (via EXTIO3 ... see my schematic) if the battery or a cell reach their respective LVC values. Ditto, charging via EXTIO4 if battery or cell reach their respective HVC values. These values are all automatically configured when you set up your SBMS for the first time after selecting battery chemistry, cell capacity, number of series-connected cells, etc. Dacian's pre-configured profiles for your selections can be tweaked if you want to set specific values but he recommends using his unless you know what you're doing.

Next up, SOC monitoring and the wonderful world of Shunts. Probably the biggest thing I think most people (well, non-engineers like me at least) get confused about. He's got two and they MUST be connected the way they are in my schematic. Why? In my diagram, the 100A shunt only has current passing through it in one direction (panels to battery &/or loads), hence it will measure my Charge Current. The 200A shunt, however (because of how and where it's connected to the 100A shunt and loads) sees that Charge Current on its way to the battery, but also sees Load Current on it's way OUT of the battery. The measured current at this shunt is the sum of Load Current - Charge Current (notice the polarity of of the PV and ADC1 wires from the SBMS0 that accomplish this). The SBMS simply adds the measurements at both shunts to get the Load Current [Charge Current + (Load Current - Charge Current) = Load Current]. So now you have a way of measuring capacity and SOC. Because, of course, LFP batteries charge curve is so flat, SBMS won't know where you sit on this curve until you've charged your pack to HVC the first time. It'll set that as 100% and be able to report accurate SOC once that's achieved (pretty sure I've got that right). I've got breakers on each of my DSSRs so I can, conceivably, observe the Charge Current coming in from each individual source.

Back to managing charging and loads. My schematic relies on his DSSRs to connect/disconnect my panels to manage charging but you can insert any other kind of charger so long as it can take the EXTIO4 to turn it on/off (e.g. an MPPT or any other charger w a remote on/off switch). Ditto on the load side via EXTIO3 (FYI, I've even inserted a Sonoff switch in this circuit to be able to disconnect my inverter/AC loads remotely or on a timer in addition to having the SBMS0 automatically disconnect them when it detects LVC).

But WAIT, THERE'S MORE! (ha), There's an additional EXTIO5 that can be used in conjunction w EXTIO4 to build 2 differently-sized arrays if you've got room for a lot of panels. Dacian's user guide section "Dual PV array functionality and SOC charge limiting" does a nice job of explaining how his SBMS0 will select and combine these differently-sized arrays to optimize your battery's charge current as the amount of sun hitting your panels changes. I don't need this 'cuz my system is vehicle-mounted so my panel real estate is limited, but if you've got the space for lots of panels, this is a really nice feature!

Some final notes: Why am I relying on his DSSRs instead of going w an MPPT charge controller? This is why. [5/10 EDIT: Confirmed here by some RW side-by-side testing.] Also, I think he's discontinuing SBMS40 and 120 because of this.

Hope that helps and I've not gotten anything wrong. As I mentioned, this is all still "theoretical" for me 'cuz I haven't been able to set it up yet and see it in action, except vicariously through others who already have. Well, at least all his other SBMSs, which have been out a while. There are some good YT resources for reviews and seeing them in action. Haven't actually seen any SBMS0 installs yet, but pretty confident it will work as well. Dacian's reputation is unparalleled and he provides excellent support.
 
Last edited:
Hope that helps and I've not gotten anything wrong. As I mentioned, this is all still "theoretical" for me 'cuz I haven't been able to set it up yet and see it in action, except vicariously through others who already have. Well, at least all his other SBMSs, which have been out a while. There are some good YT resources for reviews and seeing them in action. Haven't actually seen any SBMS0 installs yet, but pretty confident it will work as well. Dacian's reputation is unparalleled and he provides excellent support.

Thank you SOO much for taking the time to break all this down, and share what you have learned. I really really appreciate it and it has clarified a lot of things for me. This is exactly the type of high level conceptual/logical overview I was looking for. This is basically how I thought (and hoped) it operated, but was based on a lot of shaky assumptions and half understandings that I wasn't confident in, and TBH I had no clue what the purpose of the dual shunts was but I'm starting to grasp it I think.

Thanks again! I think that I won't be the only person that finds your overview useful. I look forward to following your build!
 
I have not played with electrodacus but it is certainly an interesting design concept. In a typical system you have a charge controller and a BMS. They both do their job but are running independently of each other. Both are have processors to watch voltages and current and then act on those readings for managing its piece of the system. The electrodacus challenges that architecture. Instead it puts all of the decision making in one place and then sends signals out to control 'mindless' devices (Distributed vs Central control).

An interesting aspect is the scalability. Since the main processor is not trying to handle the current dirrectly, you can keep adding low cost modules to scale up the solar array.

This architecture may not be as flexible as the more traditional architecture, but if it fits the needs of the install, who cares?

Now.... if it could just do MPPT for places where solar panel space is limited....
 
Now.... if it could just do MPPT for places where solar panel space is limited....

I'm not sure of the trade-offs (beyond price) or if/how it changes the design model, but it can do MPPT. The SBMS0 Manual explicity states compatibility with Victron Bluesolar and Smartsolar MPPT controllers, along with some others. Dacian seems pretty pretty on using PWM for his builds and the products he designs (and he makes a good argument for why that makes sense if you have space for a large array), but for those where square footage is the bottleneck, I think MPPT still makes sense.

From the manual (pg 9):
Connect the EXT IO4 set as type 1 to your charger and that can be the DSSR20 (multiple of them up to 20 no problem and up to 30 if using two EXT IOx ports) an MPPT solar charger that has remote ON/OFF support as some Victron Smart solar or Blue Solar with the adittion of a $20 remote ON/OFF cable or a grid charger that has remote ON/OFF like the RSP-750-15 for 12V battery or RSP-750-27 for 24V battery. A few battery to battery charger also have remote ON/OFF and can be used but charging from vehicle alternator is 50x more expensive than form PV so it should be avoided if cost is important to you.

Bellow is just a short list of chargers compatible with SBMS0 but way more than this presented here will work.

Electrodacus DSSR20
This is sure the most cost effective option
for PV solar charging and allows PV arrays
from 100W up to 18kW
PV needs to match battery voltage so 32
or 36 cells for 12V battery and 60 or 72 cell
PV for 24V battery.
DSSR20 (~$27)

Victron MPPT Solar chargers with remote
BlueSolar 100/20 + remote (~$160 + $20)
SmartSolar 150/85-TR (~$680)

Other type of chargers
Ronegy 40A battery to battery (~$200)
(alternator >$1/kWh not recommended).
RSP-750-15 grid charger
(grid ~$0.2/kWh)
(~$180)
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure of the trade-offs (beyond price) or if/how it changes the design model, but it can do MPPT. The SBMS0 Manual explicity states compatibility with Victron Bluesolar and Smartsolar MPPT controllers, along with some others.
My knee-jerk reaction to using victron charge controllers with the electrodacus system is "why bother?" Once you start mixing the architectures, it is not as clear to me what the advantage is.

Dacian seems pretty pretty on using PWN for his builds and the products he designs (and he makes a good argument for why that makes sense if you have space for a large array), but for those where square footage is the bottleneck, I think MPPT still makes sense.

Yup. That is why I qualified my statement with "for places where solar panel space is limited". A while back someone posted a link to something from him that argues that panels are so cheap that MPPT does not make sense if you have space for more panels. It is a valid argument... as long as MPPT remains expensive. In fact, even if the costs were a wash, you could argue the simplicity (reliability) of PWM is still better than MPPT.
 
Yup. That is why I qualified my statement with "for places where solar panel space is limited". A while back someone posted a link to something from him that argues that panels are so cheap that MPPT does not make sense if you have space for more panels. It is a valid argument... as long as MPPT remains expensive. In fact, even if the costs were a wash, you could argue the simplicity (reliability) of PWM is still better than MPPT.

I believe that was me who posted that (maybe others elsewhere too). I was quite impressed and surprised by his line of reasoning. It was the first time I had heard anyone knowledgeable make a well reasoned argument in favor of PWM. Dacian has a way of thinking outside the box, without thinking outside the box. One of the things I like about his products is that they are quite innovative/revolutionary, but in such a logical straightforward way that once you learn about them you come away thinking "well yeah, that seems obvious, I can't believe nobody else is building this."


My knee-jerk reaction to using victron charge controllers with the electrodacus system is "why bother?" Once you start mixing the architectures, it is not as clear to me what the advantage is.

I certainly see the value in a more integrated approach, and all other things being equal (which they are not), this would be the logical choice. But I suspect if you think on it for a while your impression might change. The SBMS0 has a great featureset simply as a BMS regardless of whether you use his charge controller or not (and one way or another you will be mixing architectures as the loads side (inverter, battery protect, etc) and any non-solar charge sources (shore power, generator, alternator charging) will be 3rd party components anyways.

As a BMS the SBMS0:
  1. Does the core things a BMS does LV disconnect + HV disconnect + individual cell monitoring/balancing
  2. Low and high temperature disconnect and monitoring
  3. No current limit for the BMS itself (but I think it still allows configurable max charge current--not positive though)
  4. Ability to cutoff charging and discharging separately
  5. Communicate/control devices remotely via remote on/off
  6. SOC monitoring via external shunt (I don't fully understand the advantages of the 2 shunt setup yet, but Dhowman explains it above)
  7. Remote monitoring (and management maybe(???)) via Wifi or USB
  8. Great connectivity (USB, UART, I2C, Wifi), so those inclined could connect a Raspberry Pi or any number of things. (as an aside Victron's Venus OS (used in its expensive monitoring products) is open source and linux based, and there are several projects (1, 2) adapting it to a raspberry Pi, including one encouraged by Victron)
  9. Open Hardware, Open Software (its worth noting Victron seems to have a fairly positive outlook towards open source software and open standards as well)
  10. Good technical documentation (Victron has good docs as well)
  11. Responsive, smart, committted, honest, english speaking developer
  12. Very low power consumption (0.3 to 0.8 watts)
  13. Stores a years worth of data @ 2 minute intervals.
  14. LCD display
  15. Granular customizable config
I'm sure there are pros that I am overlooking or forgetting about, and there are surely tradeoffs/cons as well (and I would definitely like to explore/brainstorm about these as well). But even on its own as a standalone unit, the SBMS0 holds its own.
 
Last edited:
3S to 8S (8V to 32V) so 12V or 24V systems. I'm hoping he'll come up with 48V configurations some day as the main battery pack I'm building will be 48V (16S LiFePO4)

Good news and bad news. Good news is its technically possible to do now, bad news is it sounds unlikely that he will be designing anything specifically for 48v as he feels it doesn't offer substantial advantages over 24v for his design model (large PV array, modest battery bank, efficient appliances (with as many as possible on DC)). If you want to understand his broader design model and the bit picture/concept that makes his design so cool watch this video its long but worth the watch. If you don't have the attention or time for the whole video start at about ~7:30 and watch 10 minutes or so. But I digress...

Back on track, here is an exchange with Dacian on the topic of 48v from the comments section of the video linked above:

questioner said:
Can you add 2 of them in series to make 48V? How easy/difficult it would be to modify the charger for higher voltage?

Dacian said:
With the new SBMS0 two can be used in series for 48V but is not something I recommend. There is just no reason to go from 24V to 48V as even with 24V you can have loads as large as 12kW with 500A external current shunt option supported by all SBMS models. A 48V BMS will need to be completely different from the current design and nothing can be reused for that. Since SBMS0 will have no power electronics and just opto isolated remote ON/OFF outputs two of them can be used each handling a 24V battery for 48V after being connected in series but each will need to have is own current shunt to measure the battery current and no signals that are not optically isolated can be shared between the two SBMS0.

questioner said:
That might be easy when you build your house from scratch and you do not have heavy loads. I do not think there is a 24V inverter on the market to handle 12 kW. My AC uses 4.5kW, Electric stove 2.2kW, Electric Oven 2.4KW, Dryer 3kW. If only this 4 loads run in the same time you have 12.2kW. I changed my heat element in my water heater from 4.5kW to 1.5kW. To that you have to add 2 fridges and a freezer, TV, lights, 4 computers, cameras, switch, modem, Espresso machine that runs couple of minutes but when it runs takes1800W, etc. 99.9% of homes in US are like mine. So, in a regular home you cannot do what you have done with your house.
I have seen 48V inverters that can handle up to 12kW. I really like that idea of AC coupling because grid tie inverters are very efficient (97% efficient) but if you drain the batteries your inverter will not start. For this reason I would like to also DC couple a small inverter/charger like yours with about 1Kw of panels positioned towards East, so if the batteries are drained fore some reason, your charger can start charging the batteries in the morning, which will bring the inverter up. The grid tie inverter does not come up unless the 48V inverter comes up first and simulates the GRID. Now, If I could find a hybrid device that can be used as inverter and charger in the same time it would be ideal. You could put few of them in parallel to have more power and you would also have redundancy in case one of them goes down.

Dacian said:
If you are grid connected why will you want to have battery storage ? Battery storage is still way more expensive than grid so it makes no economic sense to use a grid connected battery. I only have a 2.4kW inverter and plenty of loads that are around 1800 to 2000W the limit for a single phase AC in north america but I do not use them all at once. Most of the house is on DC (computers, lights, small fridge, ...) so I only use the inverter mostly during the day for electric cooking. There are plenty of 24V inverters in the 3 to 4kW range and a few of them support parallel connection and 2 phase systems + parallel for 12kW I know an SBMS120 user that has 900Ah 24V battery and 3x 3000W Victron inverters in parallel for 9000W max. They (Victron multiplus) are both inverters and chargers and suported by the SBMS both as inverters and chargers but that guy is fully offgrid so he has no use for the charger part. If you think you can have more than 12kW at any one time then you can split the house in to two separate circuits each for up to 12kW Of course if you want to go offgrid (else it makes no sense to use a battery) then you will need sufficient space for all that PV array to handle your energy consumption in worst month.

questioner said:
In the winter sometimes trees go down and we lose power. This year we lost power for 2 days. Also, the electric company charges me 26$ just to be connected + everything I send to them they pay me half price and when I buy it back I buy at full price. I is not big deal, but I think this is a rip off. In the future I want to move out and be off grid, the reason I keep looking for the best solution and keep experimenting. I could go with a smaller inverter if we do all the washing and cooking during the day when the grid tie inverter is up. That is the reason I like the Grid tie inverter. I can use like 6kW battery inverter and during the day the Grid tie inverter sends in another 3-4 kW (depends on how many panels you have ) which adds to 9-10 kW total (Regular inverter + the Grid Tie inverter.)

Dacian said:
It is normal for them to pay you less for energy exported as when there is a lot of solar PV installed they will need to find a way to store that or a way to dump unused coal or nuclear power as those can not react fast and they need to be able to dump energy somewhere if grid can not take what they produce. Best case scenario LiFePO4 battery cost amortization is around 20 cent/kWh (that is just battery nothing else) and so even if you do not get anything for the exported energy grid is still a better deal. If you use the PV array to directly charge the battery as I do then when you use energy during the day fist all the power available from PV is used and if that is not enough the difference only will be from battery so there are no advantages to grid tie inverters. for grid connected batteries it is necessary that grid tie inverters are able to communicate with the battery inverter so in case grid is down grid tie inverters will charge the battery but then when battery is full the battery inverter will usually increase frequency signaling the grid connected inverters that they need to shut down not to overcharge the battery. So typical offgrid inverters can not work in parallel with grid tie inverters. The offgrid hybrid inveter chargers can only work as inveter or in reverse as charger not both at the same time so what you try to do will not work.

On another note (unrelated to the merits of 24v vs 48v), it makes me smile that this guy is sizing his inverter based on the scenario of using his 4500W air conditioner, 2200W stove, 2400W oven, and 3000W clothes dryer AT THE SAME TIME.
 
Last edited:
Dacian seems pretty pretty on using PWN for his builds and the products he designs (and he makes a good argument for why that makes sense if you have space for a large array), but for those where square footage is the bottleneck, I think MPPT still makes sense.
Not sure it does if you have 60-cell panels and LFP cells. This screen grab from his MPPT vs SBMS assessment convinced me that it just wasn't worth it for the minimal efficiency gain (8% if your panels are at 5C or 41 deg F- ... 1.5% if they're at 25C or 77 deg F ... warmer than that, there's no diff). He makes many other points in the vid beyond this one, but that observation alone was enough to convince me.

1581528512824.png
 
Last edited:
Hmm... there's a problem with these numbers: 239 + (239 * (25.6 / 100)) = 300.2. Well, obviously 300.2 is not 321 so that's not a 25.6 % gain... it's actually a 34.3 % gain (100 * (321 - 239) / 239). I didn't run the numbers for the other ones but I bet they are off too.
 
Last edited:
it just wasn't worth it for the minimal efficiency gain

A few comments
* I have to laugh at myself when I catch myself worrying about a small efficiency gain and not really looking at the bigger picture. I suspect that there are a lot of places where people went with the added cost of MPPT because it was 'better' but really did not need to.
* For some people that 6% gain may be important.... for others it is not. Every body has different circumstances. I have installs where I would gladly give up the 6% for simplicity and cost and I have installs where I am trying to get every watt-second I can.
* If I was trying to make the choice I would run the numbers for the specific equipment and costs I was choosing between. I have not gone through the chart, but since I know he was trying to prove a point, my natural skepticism doesn't allow me to take it at face value.
 
Back
Top