Upsizing Victron 48V Gear

[WorldwideDave]

Residential structure in USA has grid service to a meter which connects to a 125A Cutler-Hammer load center.
Intention is to leave existing panel, and add an interlock device and a main breaker.

Currently have a single Quattro 48V 5000VA that was using for off-grid project.
Considering using this device to interconnect with the residence.

Thought about running critical loads panel, but instead will label breakers and turn off non-critical loads in emergency and will either connect cord (example: Generator connect at 30A or 50A - TBD) or hard wire inverter to the existing CH panel.

Early design phases here. Have enough panels, not enough battery yet, but racking mostly done.

Question: I really don't know the difference and/or advantages to adding a second 48V/5000VA Quattro to my existing one, OR just adding an autotransformer device.

I can get an auto-transformer (120V/240V/100A) for relatively cheap from a friend who is making changes on his yacht nearby, but a second Quattro costs a lot more.

Of course I know having bigger 48V Quattros or MultiPlus in the 15,000 range would probably be better. I'm sure it would be cheaper to keep the quattro I have for another project and just get an EG4 or something, but I can't just lump down 5,000 right now for batteries and inverter and labor to help with the interconnect on the panel, etc.

Really seeking a way to ease into this.

 

[ricardocello]

Permits and PoCo approvals required?
Is that Quattro UL listed?

A 50A generator inlet connected to a breaker that is interlocked with your main breaker in the panel is a great way to start.
Cheap and effective. Or spend the big $$ for an actual transfer switch.

Because the generator inlet is allowed by code, you can roll in a rack of gear with batteries and quattro and hook it up like a "generator".
Potentially avoiding permitting, but maybe not.

Saving money by using an AT instead of getting a second Quattro is not a great solution if you need true split phase 120/240V.
That 100A isn't what you think it is, you only get 28A of continuous neutral current for imbalances between L1 and L2.

 

[WorldwideDave]

Permits and PoCo approvals required?
Is that Quattro UL listed?

Think Quattro may be - not certain. Pretty sure.
No permits, please.

A 50A generator inlet connected to a breaker that is interlocked with your main breaker in the panel is a great way to start.
Cheap and effective. Or spend the big $$ for an actual transfer switch.

Thanks like the cheap path.
I think using money to do an automatic transfer switch would be nice someday - friend has some big 600A one or something laying around - way overkill for a 125A panel I would think.

Because the generator inlet is allowed by code, you can roll in a rack of gear with batteries and quattro and hook it up like a "generator".
Potentially avoiding permitting, but maybe not.

Like this approach, sure. City probably wants a permit for it, but not going to. 240V / 50A means 5 wires I think - 3 hot, one neutral, one ground? Sorry never done one that big.

Saving money by using an AT instead of getting a second Quattro is not a great solution if you need true split phase 120/240V.

Is this two sentances? Please advise.
Think you are saying to skip quattro number 2 and get the auto transformer.
You said "is not a great solution"...which the autotransformer or 2nd quattro?
What I know is the panel is a 240V panel in a residential environment. 240 loads include a multi-room minisplit, a 240V dryer, and a 240V oven. Two of those I hope to convert to gas soon.

That 100A isn't what you think it is, you only get 28A of continuous neutral current for imbalances between L1 and L2.

You saying that when using the autotransformer or a second quattro?
Never understood why they have a 100A and 30A autotransformer if you never get the 100A - what am I missing there?
If the 100A autotransformer costs less than a 30A smaller one, still get the 100A one?
Thanks amigo.

 

[Brucey]

Is 4000W of 120V output sufficient for your loads?

Adding a second Quattro 5k would double your available power and give you 240V if you need it.

What are the first few digits of the Quattro's serial number that show year and week of manufacture? If its a real vintage one if im not mistaken it may not be compatible with modern units for parallel operation. Talking over 10 years old etc.

 

[Brucey]

What I know is the panel is a 240V panel in a residential environment. 240 loads include a multi-room minisplit, a 240V dryer, and a 240V oven. Two of those I hope to convert to gas soon.

A single Quattro 5k is woefully underpowered for the dryer and oven loads. Is the stove electric or gas?

 

[ricardocello]

Like this approach, sure. City probably wants a permit for it, but not going to. 240V / 50A means 5 wires I think - 3 hot, one neutral, one ground? Sorry never done one that big.

4 wires {L1 (black), L2 (red), Neutral (white), Ground (green or bare)}
6 or 4 AWG depending

Is this two sentances? Please advise.
Think you are saying to skip quattro number 2 and get the auto transformer.
You said "is not a great solution"...which the autotransformer or 2nd quattro?

I never recommend an Autotransformer. And I own two of them.
It adds complexity, has current limitations, and Neutral/Ground bonding gets more difficult.

If you want split phase 120/240 with Victron, I recommend a second Quattro.

What I know is the panel is a 240V panel in a residential environment. 240 loads include a multi-room minisplit, a 240V dryer, and a 240V oven. Two of those I hope to convert to gas soon.

Almost every residential panel in the US is split-phase 120/240V.
Very few residences have 3-phase.

You saying that when using the autotransformer or a second quattro?
Never understood why they have a 100A and 30A autotransformer if you never get the 100A - what am I missing there?
If the 100A autotransformer costs less than a 30A smaller one, still get the 100A one?
Thanks amigo.

The 100A Autotransformer lets you pass though lots of 240V to loads in a generator or inverter balancing situation.

That isn't how you would be using it. You would be making split-phase from 120V, effectively a step-up transformer.

 

[WorldwideDave]

Is 4000W of 120V output sufficient for your loads?

in an emergency, some better than none. we do 73kWh a day last time I measured, but with pool pump off-grid now 100%, the number is much less. Was 240A 20A pump setup. Now Variable Speed 1 HP 120V doing great off-grid.

Adding a second Quattro 5k would double your available power and give you 240V if you need it.

yes so second quattro would double from 5000VA to 10000VA and do what the autotransformer does by providing 240V?
The 240V provided by autotransformer is limited to 32 A I think...what would it be with two quattros running 240V?

What are the first few digits of the Quattro's serial number that show year and week of manufacture? If its a real vintage one if im not mistaken it may not be compatible with modern units for parallel operation. Talking over 10 years old etc.

No it's 2.5 years old or so.

 

[WorldwideDave]

A single Quattro 5k is woefully underpowered for the dryer and oven loads. Is the stove electric or gas?

yes but dryer not an emergency, and will be converted to gas dryer running 120V soon
Wall oven is 240V and almost never used, but it is on our list to replace with gas oven soon.
The built-in stove is already gas.
The air conditioning is not an emergency, so that will be turned off when running on solar.

 

[740GLE]

If the quatros are to be in parallel or split phase victron is very specific they need to be very close in serial number, so bought at the same time. They do make minor tweaks of design, so something from 5 years ago won’t be a direct match to what you’re buying today.

Now I think you might be able to use one Quattro as the “grid source” of the other, and that’s technically not parallel.

 

[Brucey]

Then if budget is a factor go with the single unit you have now and leave spacing for a second one alongside in the future if you want more power.

 

[Brucey]

If the quatros are to be in parallel or split phase victron is very specific they need to be very close in serial number, so bought at the same time. They do make minor tweaks of design, so something from 5 years ago won’t be a direct match to what you’re buying today.

Now I think you might be able to use one Quattro as the “grid source” of the other, and that’s technically not parallel.

I can't find the document but I thinkg there's a way to check what generation of processor the quattro is using and a chart that shows compatibility.

 

[WorldwideDave]

Then if budget is a factor go with the single unit you have now and leave spacing for a second one alongside in the future if you want more power.

I will have plenty of space, thanks - about 4 feet to the left, 4 feet above it, and 4 feet below it.
I think the quattro 48V/5000VA I have is single phase.
I believe adding a autotransformer OR a 2nd matching victron will provide split-phase...is that correct?
You saying use the single quattro with the autotransformer for now, Bruce?
Will it be limited to 32A as others have said?

 

[Brucey]

I would use it as a 120V source, no auto transformer. Then when funds allow, add 2nd Quattro.

 

[WorldwideDave]

I would use it as a 120V source, no auto transformer. Then when funds allow, add 2nd Quattro.

wouldn't that require me to create a dedicated panel for those 120V loads? Trying to not redo a bunch of wires at this time. Just looking to reduce grid usage on days we don't run laundry or air conditioning or cook in the oven. Interconnect.