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Use solder paste on terminals-busbar to improve conductivity?

I did find one tinned aluminum screw seized in a 3R disconnect switch. Any grease or corrosion inhibitor should prevent that for your battery terminal screws. But stop and rethink torque and clamping force if so lubricated. Won't be a problem for terminal twisting in plastic housing, but will apply more pull-out force to threads, which could be a problem if near the point of stripping. Comparing torque specs for screws of the same size to those for the battery would give a indication.
 
Totally inexperienced...so forgive me if this idea is totally stupid....
If once the terminals have been cleaned (and busbars also) and you have established good contact at the surface interface, could you completely seal things up with some high temp silicone over the whole connection? That way there is no air getting to the union to compromise things? In a mobile RV situation, it would also help prevent vibration movements working things loose. I'm assuming that any heat generated will still be conducted along the busbar to be dissapated.
It might not improve initial conductivity(but that should be first class right at the start anyways), but it might help prevent degradation of the connection over time?
Any obvious flaws in this idea?
 
Totally inexperienced...so forgive me if this idea is totally stupid....
If once the terminals have been cleaned (and busbars also) and you have established good contact at the surface interface, could you completely seal things up with some high temp silicone over the whole connection? That way there is no air getting to the union to compromise things? In a mobile RV situation, it would also help prevent vibration movements working things loose. I'm assuming that any heat generated will still be conducted along the busbar to be dissapated.
It might not improve initial conductivity(but that should be first class right at the start anyways), but it might help prevent degradation of the connection over time?
Any obvious flaws in this idea?
You touched on one of the disadvantages which is the heat dissipation. The silicone will act as an insulator to retain heat. Depending on how much heat you are generating through current draw, this can become a big issue. It can also delaminate the bond between the metal and the silicone rendering the seal ineffective.
This brings us to the other big factor which is that any moisture that gets past the silicone gets trapped there and exacerbates the problem by not allowing it to evaporate.
 
I agree with @Haugen , not for just those reasons.

We have bus-bar, they might get warm, but copper being excellent heat transporter, the not covered base of the bus-bar will cool the increased temperature.

High quality kit can make quite a good seal over the whole thing..

And that's a problem!
Unless you are able to mount in vacuum, you will trap air inside the seal.

Air with moisture and oxigen.

There will be galvanic corrosion, and no place to go.

By the time your connection give problems... You can probably buy new cells. It will be too late to fix anything.

Inside the seal there is higher heat, more extension and shrinking, more stress on the metals.

It will take 4 years or longer before you get any issues, but you won't make the +15 years many of us hope for.

If you don't seal, yes, there are external influences.

But are they bad?

I don't think so.
If it was bad the design would be totally different.

Tinned or zinc coated copper bus-bar should reduce the galvanic corrosion to minimal and still give optimal contact.

Slightly less optimal is corosion prevention by oxi-guard or vaseline, where both are non conductive di-electric grease.

With contact you squeeze the non conductive layer so thin that it's restriction is minimal.

Where there is full contact, there is "no oxygen", no oxidation.
"No oxigen" between quotes..
Yes.. with heat up and cooling some friction might take place.
Also high and low air pressure might expand airpocket..

Might.
Probably not, or so little that your flat metal to metal with filler (conductive or non conductive) will not oxidate enough to provide connection issues with your terminal for the next + 15 years.
It won't last 300 years.

Flat metal to metal is like 2 sheets of flat glass placed together with a drop of water...
Put some ink in the water to see how much air is still present if the glass is properly prepared (fat free)

Your metal to metal will look like this.

And just like this 2 sheets of glass, the layer between the sheets have almost 0 problems from the environment outside.

Even with a small airpocket you see it expands and contracts, but won't be a problem.

10 years.. water vaporise, even at 20 degree Celcius.
Your di-electric grease will dry out a little on the edges.
Electric conductive paste doesn't.

For safety reasons, animals and children I can suggest sealing to prevent accidental contacts
There are other solutions that are more flexible that give the same/better results like a locked space.

It's good to see what is happening!
And just being exposed to air isn't a bad thing.

The cells are intended for home use in home environment.
Not outside, not marine.
(Read the specifications sheets aka white paper)

Using outside those specifications like an airplane with huge difference in pressure, moisture and temperature..
You need special precautions.

Inside your home?
Cleaning the terminals (= remove oxidation) and protect with di-electric grease is for 90% of the installation all that is needed
Those who want little better use electric conductive paste, the special silver paste you can buy for this have other chemical components that will reduce galvanic corrosion to minimal.
It's not just silver powder in grease.

For the people who just place the bars on the cells..
They will get problems like uneven voltage readings.

If you have new cells and after installation your voltage goes all the way except being balanced...
Disconnect the battery, remove your Bus-bars and start cleaning!!

Oxidation is easy removed with natural household tools like lemon juice, vinagre or cream of tartar

This works also for copper and tinned/zinc plated Bus-bars

Sandpaper or rough sponge is seldom needed
 
Ok, perhaps stupid suggestion number2 :ROFLMAO:
Would copper grease anti-sieze work, being copper based, improve electrical conductivity, but prevent the higher chance of galvanic corrosion simply through being a grease? spec is -20degC to 1100degC...offers primarily protection from seizure and corrosion and actually says on the tin 'battery terminals'....anyone with experience of this?
I believe my busbars are nickel plated copper and copper lugs on power take off cables, but terminals are aluminium.copper paste.jpg
 
Ok, perhaps stupid suggestion number2 :ROFLMAO:
Would copper grease anti-sieze work, being copper based, improve electrical conductivity, but prevent the higher chance of galvanic corrosion simply through being a grease? spec is -20degC to 1100degC...offers primarily protection from seizure and corrosion and actually says on the tin 'battery terminals'....anyone with experience of this?
I believe my busbars are nickel plated copper and copper lugs on power take off cables, but terminals are aluminium.View attachment 25902
Not totally stupid, I thought about it also.

It's used in automotive for parts that get hot regularly and still need to be able to replace, like breaks.

The special formula makes it possible to go red hot many times and still able to release the bolts and nuts.

But...
It's oxidized copper powder, and oxidation doesn't conduct electricity as good as we like..

Silver oxide doesn't have this limitation. That is why it's used in the special expensive conductive paste.

Solder paste sadly isn't a good idea for the same reason as the copper paste.... Oxidation.

While it should technically be possible to heat up the whole set to the melting point of solder paste, even without damaging the LiFePO4.. I can not advise to try this at home in your oven :)

Silver conductive paste have chemicals added to avoid/reduce galvanic corrosion.

Chemicals that are around for +50 years, probably identical to the base chemicals used in your car cooling system.

Before 1970 it was common practice to use sacrifice metal in water cooling system. (Often copper radiator, aluminium motor)
 
I never heard of Noalox before
Good tip!!

- after search it seems only available via Amazon or eBay...
Price about 75 USD include shipping and tax :-(

You know home made alternative?
Or just work fast after cleaning :)
It's under $6 at my local Home Depot?
Noalox
 
Hi fhorst
I just bought some Ox-Gard at Home Depot here in Canada if that helps. :)
 
Sadly not everything that is available at low cost in USA is global available at that same price.

Even if it's produced in Asia, doesn't mean it's available here.

Like EPDM rubber foil / sheet used for roofing and ponds..
Made in Thailand but you can't buy locally ..
 
The guys from our India office asked me to send them some metal picks for PCB rework (similar to dental tools.) Couldn't get those locally, they said.

I shipped a package from Harbor Freight. "Made in India", it said.

 
The guys from our India office asked me to send them some metal picks for PCB rework (similar to dental tools.) Couldn't get those locally, they said.

I shipped a package from Harbor Freight. "Made in India", it said.

Figures. :rolleyes:
 
View attachment 26260

Yes...
Not for Thailand :)
Sorry about that, I have no idea what shipping costs, but I could easily send you some. Here in the USA, a lot of building inspectors REQUIRE it be used if you are connecting copper and aluminum wire or electrical fixtures. Too many fires otherwise. In the 1970s they started building homes with aluminum wiring, but it was banned in a short time due to fires.
 

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Sorry about that, I have no idea what shipping costs, but I could easily send you some. Here in the USA, a lot of building inspectors REQUIRE it be used if you are connecting copper and aluminum wire or electrical fixtures. Too many fires otherwise. In the 1970s they started building homes with aluminum wiring, but it was banned in a short time due to fires.
Literally had a LOT of problems with fedex so you might want to try someone else.
They basically screwed someone sending a gift of something used.
They wanted a lot of info for a "commercial" product which of course the object wasn't and the person wasn't a business either. Just someone trying to send something to another person.

Hopefully this helps. :)
 
Literally had a LOT of problems with fedex so you might want to try someone else.
They basically screwed someone sending a gift of something used.
They wanted a lot of info for a "commercial" product which of course the object wasn't and the person wasn't a business either. Just someone trying to send something to another person.

Hopefully this helps. :)
Yes, my wife is Ukrainian, so I have lots of experience filling out customs forms for the post office.
 
Planarity of your busbars is a separate issue, ought to be dealt with in some mechanical manner. It might be that annealing to remove stress and filing to flatten the surface would help. I would imagine that a different construction, e.g. many thin sheets of metal, would make it more limber so it could be clamped flat with less pressure. Or a stud with large nut between battery and busbar, so more torque could be applied to busbar connection without over-torquing the weaker thread in the battery.

Hedges .... You make an excellent point here regarding the importance of planarity (flatness for most of us) between lugs and bus bars. I agree completely.

This whole debate regarding Noalox, or other anti-corrosion compounds, between bare copper connections is very contentious, even within the community of professional electricians. I believe that the the truth is that there is no paste or compound that you can put between copper connections that will NOT decrease conductivity, and not INCREASE the electrical resistance of the joint. Noalox was invented in the 1960’s after fires were started subsequent to the shift from copper wiring to aluminum in home wiring. Some electricians started using it on all connections, something that Ideal Company still encourages to sell more of their goop. Surprisingly, the National Electric Code is silent on the matter, not requiring it, and not prohibiting it, saying only that such stuff must be used in compliance with manufacturer recommendations. But modern aluminum wire conductors, intended for building wiring, incorporate an anti-corrosion coating that render it un-necessary to always apply Noalox.

I’ve been working in electricity and electronics for five decades (although that is no guarantee that I know what I’m talking about). Personally, I would never use any coating BETWEEN copper connections, other than tin (or even better - silver, but I’ve never done that). To apply a protective coating AFTER assembly is a different matter, and may be a good practice in a harsh environment, such as a marine application, aviation, or an vehicle engine compartment. But in a dry, salt-free, vibration-free application, I do not do it ... too messy for me ... and the bit of oxidation of that turns the bright copper of the exposed portion of the lug, or bus bar, dull in a few years is harmless because air is excluded from a properly clamped connection.

Follow Hedges advice and assure a pair of good flat surfaces, and air will be excluded from your connection. Screw connections need to be sufficiently tight for the same reason.

Personally, I also “tin” most bare copper prior to connection, and I always do this for high ampere connections.

This is a contentious topic. Make your own conclusion, but always a valuable precaution is to initially, and periodically - perhaps once a year - use an IR temperature “gun” to measure the temperature of each connection while operating at a heavy load for a reasonably extended period. With that precaution you can rest well, knowing that whatever connection scheme you chose is still performing well.
 
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I haven't tested my connections at high C rates yet, just the cheap 150 watt tester from Aliexpress. So far connections are good, I just used a Dremel buffer on the cells connections and the bus bar connections followed by a wipe with Noalox on the contact surfaces. I'm using the supplied bus bars, but I'm having some made substantially better.

Reminder, although corrosion can be caused by many things. this connection and Noalox are great examples of galvanic corrosion.
This is not just copper tarnishing when exposed to air, it's actually the same chemical reaction that makes batteries work.

I can't speak for additives they've made to aluminum to help prevent that, but I will point out that Noalox is designed for EXACTLY this application.

Galvanic corrosion is a WELL known thing and widely studied. It's best known in marine design (both for ships and structures).

WHAT IS GALVANIC CORROSION AND HOW CAN IT BE PREVENTED?
 
Hello Just John,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. But we may just have to disagree about Noalox.

Galvanic corrosion requires the presence of an electrolyte between dissimilar metals. Even dust can serve as a poor electrolyte, Dry air - not so much. You may be in a humid marine environment. I’m fortunate to be in the dry desert.

In spite of what the Ideal Company would have us believe (and marketing people have been known to bend the truth), I still contend that Noalox offers no galvanic protection between copper and aluminum surfaces, unless it keeps those dissimilar metals separated, which I contend is not a good thing. Noalox is merely a thin paste of powdered zinc in a light grease, and it is designed to be used between aluminum connections. The zinc particles will pierce the aluminum oxide layer and allow a better aluminum to aluminum connection. Zinc is used because of its hardness compared to copper, and the fact that it is closer to aluminum in the galvanic series.

Otherwise, Noalox is a poor conductor, and if it is present as a barrier that prevents intimate contact between the copper and the aluminum, it WILL increase the ohmic resistance of the joint. If the application environment is dry, I stand by my belief that it serves no benefit, and may interfere. In a marine application, I will admit to not knowing for sure.

There are places where I will use Noalox. Specifically, between aluminum sections of an antenna. But an outdoor, RF application is a much different than an indoor, high current DC connection.

As I noted above, this is a contentious issue, even with the the community of journeymen electricians with decades of experience, so I don’t would not expect universal agreement. But readers deserve to hear both sides of the debate.

There is usually more than one effective way to get any job done. Choose what works for you. It very well might not make much real-world difference, at least in a dry and clean application, and if used in only the very thin layer you describe.

But do consider taking the extra step, and measure the temperature of high amperage connections periodically to be sure that all continues to work well. If you find a connection that is warm/hot, take it apart, refresh the surfaces, and retighten. That’s the best way to know for sure.

May we both continue to get excellent results!
 
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Noalox is merely a thin paste of powdered zinc in a light grease, and it is designed to be used between aluminum connections. The zinc particles will pierce the aluminum oxide layer and allow a better aluminum to aluminum connection. Zinc is used because of its hardness compared to copper, and the fact that it is closer to aluminum in the galvanic series.

Otherwise, Noalox is a poor conductor, and if it is present as a barrier that prevents intimate contact between the copper and the aluminum, it WILL increase the ohmic resistance of the joint. If the application environment is dry, I stand by my belief that it serves no benefit, and may interfere. In a marine application, I will admit to not knowing for sure.
I presumed that the zinc was chosen as sacrificial anode to try to protect the aluminum.

Yes, grease is a poor conductor, but the reason for it is to provide a protective oxygen barrier. Connections should always have a large enough cross section for the current intended. Saying that the grease is somehow going to add resistance is something I can't agree with.

I never recommend Noalox because I don't support adding more metals to the mix to exacerbate the galvanic reaction.
As @JustJohn indicated, it is the interruption of the corrosion triangle that prevents the galvanic reaction. A connector lubricant keeps moisture and oxygen away from the metal. Ask any Gun enthusiast why they oil their gun.

Living in Florida, this is a constant battle we fight. We watch as people fail to protect their metal and the consequences are significant. From cars and boats, to power lines and electronics, corrosion is on display everywhere, so it's easy to discover what works and what doesn't.

Sure, your dry desert makes this a non-issue. I'm happy for you. That is a very small portion of the planet, and you'll never get me to stay there for any length of time.

I've got plenty of skin in the game and my money is on not using dissimilar metals for electrical connections and connector lubricant to break the triangle.
 
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