Utility jerking me around.

[Hedges]

My previous net-meter logged "Total" and "Peak".
Off-peak was computed as Total - Peak.
So when a bit flip or something (during a month of solar storms) showed I imported 17 MWh during peak times one month, they calculated that I exported about 16 MWh during off-peak. My PV system was really working overtime, while the sun don't shine.
The bill was a couple $thousand, due to spread in rates.

They said after testing the meter was fine.
I said that 400A continuous through 2/0 or 3/0 would have melted it.

(I now know it is also 2x the KVA rating of utility transformer; each neighbor can load it 100%).

They did adjust my bill appropriately.


OK, how about forget net metering, just install an off-grid system and lots of PowerPro batteries. Add 1 or more ChargeVerter.

 

[TheFlumph]

My previous net-meter logged "Total" and "Peak".
Off-peak was computed as Total - Peak.
So when a bit flip or something (during a month of solar storms) showed I imported 17 MWh during peak times one month, they calculated that I exported about 16 MWh during off-peak. My PV system was really working overtime, while the sun don't shine.
The bill was a couple $thousand, due to spread in rates.

They said after testing the meter was fine.
I said that 400A continuous through 2/0 or 3/0 would have melted it.

(I now know it is also 2x the KVA rating of utility transformer; each neighbor can load it 100%).

They did adjust my bill appropriately.


OK, how about forget net metering, just install an off-grid system and lots of PowerPro batteries. Add 1 or more ChargeVerter.

I’m seriously considering it. 2 more power pro batteries would cost me about $5400 after tax credit. That would bring my batteries to about 43 kWh. (Three total power pro batteries)
In the winter I use about 60 kWh daily because of a heat pump in very cold temps. In the summer I use about 40kwh daily.
So my hope with net metering was to build credit in the summer to offset winter costs.
Net metering here pays .21kwh as mandated by state law. That’s why the utility co hates it so much. They would rather be buying wholesale dirty power. When I’m producing twice what I need in the summer, I just lose it without net metering. That’s at least $1000/year but probably more like $1500 I lose out on.

 

[Mattb4]

...
Net metering here pays .21kwh as mandated by state law. ...

I would than suggest going standard grid tie if they let you. You can always change in the future (especially if you plan now to make it easier) to using a hybrid setup.

 

[green mountain boys]

What utility company? This does not sound like GMP.

 

[TheFlumph]

What utility company? This does not sound like GMP.

Washington electric.i wish I could get GMP here.

 

[TheFlumph]

I would than suggest going standard grid tie if they let you. You can always change in the future (especially if you plan now to make it easier) to using a hybrid setup.

So inverter straight to their export meter and not hooked to my backup at all?
At that point it might be better to just get a sub $2000 grid tie inverter and hook 40 of my 60 panels to it and keep my hybrid and battery separate on the other 20 panels for critical needs backup.
I don’t know. I’ve got Covid brain this week and I’m thoroughly pissed off at them throwing me yet another curveball. Hard to figure out what I want to do.

 

[green mountain boys]

1. The utility cited "VT PUC Rule 5.500". Have you read this? Does this rule say that they are required to measure your solar production? I ask because it sounds like a strange requirement.

https://puc.vermont.gov/sites/psbne...c-generation-interconnection-procedures_0.pdf

2. The state of Vermont has been promoting green energy for a long time. As you pointed out, the requirement to purchase your solar energy at a favorable rate to you. I wonder if you would get any support from the Department of Public Service if the utility is going beyond what is reasonable? Normally I would not recommend seeking help from the state, but in this case maybe you would get some support if the utility is putting undue requirements on the customer?

 

[TheFlumph]

1. The utility cited "VT PUC Rule 5.500". Have you read this? Does this rule say that they are required to measure your solar production? I ask because it sounds like a strange requirement.

https://puc.vermont.gov/sites/psbne...c-generation-interconnection-procedures_0.pdf

2. The state of Vermont has been promoting green energy for a long time. As you pointed out, the requirement to purchase your solar energy at a favorable rate to you. I wonder if you would get any support from the Department of Public Service if the utility is going beyond what is reasonable? Normally I would not recommend seeking help from the state, but in this case maybe you would get some support if the utility is putting undue requirements on the customer?

I had the same thought about 5.500. I read it and didn’t see it. I emailed and asked for the section they are referring to.

If it’s not in 5.500 and they still insist, I’ll absolutely get the state involved.
If it’s a state rule I’ll probably get a basic grid tie inverter and just hook that into their export meter and get interconnected. The rest won’t be their business.

 

[740GLE]

Utilities do have a hard time keeping up with changes in how distributed generation can be interpreted into their system, doubly so for little COOPs. Zero export PV is radical to many. Also seeing COOP are “member owned” they may not fall under PUC regulations.

Their first goal is safety, then it’s compliance. If you can convince them you have zero export there’s no harm or risk to the utility other than reduced revenue.

My only guess as to why they want PV inverter meters to to claim some sort of SREC in your behalf.

IMO at this point it might be best to say you’re taking your system off grid and island you system (with grid back up as needed) and fight them if they start poking around.

 

[green mountain boys]

My only guess as to why they want PV inverter meters to to claim some sort of SREC in your behalf.

I am pretty sure if the OP checks on this you will find the state specifically says SREC belongs to the customer.

 

[NC_hydro]

They’ve probably had dozens of others bend over and take what they give so they think they can keep doing it. That’s how things have gotten the way they are

 

[AntronX]

First, VT PUC Rule 5.500 requires us to record production of your solar array separately.

hmm. Who gave them that idea ?

 

[TheFlumph]

hmm. Who gave them that idea ?

Ya I couldn’t find that in 5.500. I’m waiting for their response pointing to the section they are referring me to.

 

[rhino]

How critical is it for you to sell back to the grid as opposed to offsetting your own usage when you can?

 

[TheFlumph]

How critical is it for you to sell back to the grid as opposed to offsetting your own usage when you can?

The math works heavily in the favor of net metering. Most of the year I’ll be generating more than I use and they pay a lot per kWh here.
Honestly I would be better off just trying to return my hybrid inverter and battery, getting a much cheaper grid tie inverter and getting a propane generator for random power outages that typically don’t last over a day.

 

[AZ Solar Junkie]

All these discussions make me so glad I stuck with off-grid with grid backup, keeping the electric company out of my business

 

[TheFlumph]

So from what I can tell, the utility really recommends residential net metering clients surrender their renewable energy credits to the utility. If you don’t, they punish you with a .06 less per kwh they pay.

They can then use these credits themselves. That’s probably why they insist on a separate meter.

https://www.revermont.org/wp-content/uploads/REC-Factsheet-REV-4-14-2016.pdf

 

[740GLE]

What I love is this PUC 5.5whatnot rule was last updated in 2017, you know back when people were still using blackberries, lol.

 

[Steve777]

Have not had to deal with the utilities in your neck of the woods, but out here the PoCo needs to approve all systems if they are grid tied. In speaking to several installers, it seems that it almost always takes 2 or 3 rounds with the PoCo to get approved; usually just reminding them of their own rules and how what you submitted meets them.

If you can talks to some knowledgeable installers in your area, they should be able to tell you if your local co is just having "fun" with you or if what they say really is per the rules.

 

[Madcodger]

All these discussions make me so glad I stuck with off-grid with grid backup, keeping the electric company out of my business

This. Amen! I have friends who say, "But it won't cost you anything because you'll make so much extra power in the summer, blah blah, blah." Well, yeah, except it's going to cost me a ton of aggravation, a zillion pages of forms, justifying things to an endless stream of bureaucrats and half-informed corporate droids, and on and on. I had to call a local solar and heat pump installer's tech dept yesterday to help out my local fire dept on a project. It took about 2 minutes before their technical knowledge was insufficient to continue. And those are the "experts" installing these grid-tie systems. No, thank you.

 

[Oldphile]

So from what I can tell, the utility really recommends residential net metering clients surrender their renewable energy credits to the utility. If you don’t, they punish you with a .06 less per kwh they pay.

They can then use these credits themselves. That’s probably why they insist on a separate meter.

https://www.revermont.org/wp-content/uploads/REC-Factsheet-REV-4-14-2016.pdf

I think you uncovered the reason. However, they should allow you to connect your AIO as intended and take the 6 cent hit.

 

[wpns]

Sure, we all love "The Grid Is My Battery" aka Net Metering, but there's enough pushback from the power companies that it's feeling easier to just go completely off-grid, oversize everything (panels, inverters, batteries), and get a small backup generator for the really lean times.

My favorite is: We buy all your generated solar power at the wholesale rate and sell you all your consumption at the retail rate, even when you are generating and consuming simultaneously we charge you the delta for your own power.

Especially annoying when the grid is unreliable!

 

[TheFlumph]

Sure, we all love "The Grid Is My Battery" aka Net Metering, but there's enough pushback from the power companies that it's feeling easier to just go completely off-grid, oversize everything (panels, inverters, batteries), and get a small backup generator for the really lean times.

My favorite is: We buy all your generated solar power at the wholesale rate and sell you all your consumption at the retail rate, even when you are generating and consuming simultaneously we charge you the delta for your own power.

Especially annoying when the grid is unreliable!

If they could get away will dismal wholesale rates here they would. But the state forces them to pay .20+ per kWh. If this were over .04 like some places there no way I would jump through all these hoops. But at .20 it’s worth it in the long run. I would be producing almost $5,000 worth a year.

 

[green mountain boys]

So from what I can tell, the utility really recommends residential net metering clients surrender their renewable energy credits to the utility. If you don’t, they punish you with a .06 less per kwh they pay.

They can then use these credits themselves. That’s probably why they insist on a separate meter.

https://www.revermont.org/wp-content/uploads/REC-Factsheet-REV-4-14-2016.pdf

A wise man once told me the three steps to winning an a disagreement with an organization like government or, in this case, a utility.

1. Take the time to fully understand your opponents position and all of their individual arguments. Anticipate any argument they have not yet stated. Take the time to understand the subject better then they do.

2. Find iron-clad arguments to counter each of their points. Evaluate the strength of your points and refine until you are fully confident.

3. When the day finally comes for the big meeting. I take out my bright red T-shirt with bold lettering that says, " I REFUSE TO HAVE A BATTLE OF WITS WITH AN UNARMED PERSON"

 

[TheFlumph]

Ok. I’ve come up with plan B.
I made a new plan for two growatt min 7600 grid tie inverters.
this plan has me going grid tie only and I’ll just get a propane generator later on for power outages.

I have 60 300w panels. I could go 3 strings of 10 into each of the two inverters and then combine the ac output in an AC combiner (breaker box with two 35a breakers in and a 70a breaker out.) then to my production meter. After the ac disconnect I’ll just land on a 70a backfeed breaker. The two inverters output a max of 32a each.
The 70 backfeed breaker is within the 120% rule for my main panel busbar.

All the learning and researching and experience I have is from my hybrid inverter. I haven’t dealt with these grid tie only inverters. How does this look?

This is all predicated on if signature solar takes my return back. They said probably with a restock fee.