V2H status?

[fafrd]

I ran a search for ‘V2H’ on the forum and everything I found was at least a year old if not two.

So I figured this was as good of a place as any to start a new thread on the status of V2H.

Specifically, while we’ve seen several new EVs announced including the Ford F150-Lightening and the Hyundai Ioniq5 which will support ‘V2L’ it’s unclear to me whether either of these new EVs will also support ‘V2H’ or not and which other EVs out there either already support V2H or have plans to.

My simple understanding is as follows:

V2L: 120VAC and/or 240VAC output on an EV powered directly from the EV battery using an integrated inverter. This is not synced to grid and so can only be used to power appliances through an extension cord (or potentially modest loads of a whole house when off grid). The two EVs mentioned will be the first with integrated support for this capability. Simple (basically similar to the 120VAC outlets integrated into many hybrids, but powered off of the EV’s main battery rather than the 12V LA battery) and emerging quickest.

V2G: this is grid-interactive capability managed through the EV charger and allowing the grid to get power from the EV’s stored energy. Complicated protocol, complicated equipment, and moving very slowly (I have no interest in V2G, personally).

V2H: this is the acronym being given to the bi-directional charging capability of delivering grid-tied power from the EVs battery to offset consumption (so no export). Off-grid backup capability is another animal and may or may not be part of the bundle, but I’m specifically interested in the ability to charge an EV with excess solar production during the day (to avoid export) coupled with the ability to invert enough battery power to offset loads in the evening (to avoid import).

I’ve seen several EV chargers out there claiming to support V2H but can’t find any information on EVs existing or planned to support the capability.

V2H is more complicated than V2H (but much simpler than V2G) because it requires being synced to grid (grid-tied) and needs to communicate with an energy monitor to know how much power to output. It essentially means integrating the hybrid inverter capability of a Solark or a Schneider Conext CW+ into an EV charger (assuming the EV supports DC charging - grid-tied inverter could be integrated into the EV in the case of an AC charger).

It seems as though the latest Nissan Leaf may support V2H but only through the specific charger standard it supports.

So any insight into which EVs support V2H (or are planned to) and where things are as far as this emerging V2H charger standards and this load-offset capability being ready for Prime Time would be greatly appreciated.

 

[fafrd]

Found this: https://insideevs.com/news/558708/wallbox-quasar2-charger-introduced-ces/amp/

‘Just because an EV uses the CCS standard and can be charged with the Quasar 2, doesn't mean it is capable of bidirectional power delivery.’

‘In fact, outside of the Lucid Air, the Hyundai Ioniq 5, and Kia EV6, we don't believe any EV available today is ready for CCS bidirectional power flow. The Ford F-150 Lightning will soon be able to, but there's also the question of whether or not these vehicles will communicate properly with the Quasar to perform the task.’

Also, reading this, they seem to suggest ‘V2H’ is nothing more than ‘V2L’ powered in DC through the charge port rather than inverted to AC and powered through an AC output on the EV.

So seems as like the use of V2H for grid-tied load offset is on the bleeding-edge (but inevitable, in my view).

The quasar2 bidirectional charger appears to still be in development and no idea what it’s cost will be: https://wallbox.com/en_us/quasar-dc-charger

 

[fafrd]

And found this (from last September): https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=30018&start=10#p610107

‘1) Hoping Solaredge latest HD Wave inverter/hub will support bi-directional charging with a firmware update in the near future. This is not for sure but something to find out more about through my solar panel installer. Cost: $2K to $3K range
2) dcbel r16 solar inverted/bi-directional charger combo. This would be my ideal choice but not available in my area yet and no timeline to my knowledge. Cost: $5K
3) Wallbox Quasar bidirectional home DC charger. Available now but the priciest of all so far at $4K just for the charger!
4) Nuvve upcoming residential bi-directional EV charger. Cost: ?. I have sent them an email to find out more.
5) Fermata Energy’s V2X systems. Cost: ?. I have sent them an email to find out more.’

So looks like this V2H stuff is coming but pretty much beyond the bleeding edge today.

Give it another year or two to bake…

 

[fafrd]

According to this, the Ioniq 5 can only deliver AC power through it’s AC out ports for non-grid-tied power to islanded loads and is not a true bi-directional EV with ability to deliver either DC power or grid-tied power back to an EV charger through it’s charge port; https://chargedevs.com/newswire/hyu...features-800-v-system-bidirectional-charging/

 

[45North]

An interesting subject for sure!
And further complicated by related developments in Vehicle to Grid, and Vehicle to Load.

Key is to figure out the Cost/Benefit: whether the compensation or savings justifies your big upfront investment and the reduced cycles available on your battery.
And how altruistic are you? Do you consider your investment to be primarily for your own goals or are you willing to contribute to a "common good"?

 

[fafrd]

An interesting subject for sure!
And further complicated by related developments in Vehicle to Grid, and Vehicle to Load.

V2L is pretty simple - it’s an AC out port that is not synced to the grid (same as you’d have with any PSW inverter).

V2G is a nightmare - it’s a game only big companies like Tesla are in a position to play. Anything we consumers get out of V2G will be pure happenstance (and will take a very long time).

V2H should be no more complicated than the capability delivered by any of the new hybrid inverters such as the Schneider Conext XW+ but the industry compounds the confusion by listing these terms very loosely.

I’ve seen several articles suggesting that the Ioniq 5 and the F150-Lightening support ‘V2H’ and ‘bidirectional charging’ just because they have AC out ports and can power loads.

Bi-directional charging should be reserved for EVs that can deliver power back to their charging stations through the charge port (either AC or DC).

And ‘V2H’ should be reserved for EVs and/or charging stations that can deliver grid-tied AC power to offset loads (whether they can also deliver backup power or not).

I’ve also seen reference to ‘V2B’ which seems to be getting applied to the capability to provide backup power to a building/house through the charge port/station when the grid goes down (which I’m OK with, just as long as they reserve me if these terms for grid-tied consumption offset).

It’s a true mess right now.

Key is to figure out the Cost/Benefit: whether the compensation or savings justifies your big upfront investment and the reduced cycles available on your battery.
And how altruistic are you? Do you consider your investment to be primarily for your own goals or are you willing to contribute to a "common good"?

First you’ve got to find a comprehensive technical solution to the problem you’re trying to solve, then you’ve got to determine whether that solution is worth it’s cost to you.

My only goal is identifying a solution that will allow me to use an EV as an extended solar battery before purchasing a new EV.

Whether I invest in an expensive hybrid EV charger in order to ever capitalize on that capability is a separate and secondary question.

My EV purchase is now in hold until this bidirectional charging capability and what I’m calling V2L (grid-tied load offset) are further along than they are now..,

I’ve already got a 14kWh LiFePO4 battery for the house, so my only interest in using a new EV for more capacity would be for if/when my utility makes export prohibitive.

I estimate that for the equivalent of 10-15 miles of driving equivalent storage capacity per day (3 to 5 kWh), I can get my house through a full 24 hours of consumption…

 

[fafrd]

By the way, I’ve already figured out how to put together a V2L-based solution using the EV as a generator to recharge the house LiFePO4 battery when it gets low (so islanded AC out if the EV and no need for grid-sync on the V2L AC power).

Inverting EV battery power to drive a battery charger wastes ~20% of the power you’d use if you were offsetting house consumption directly by inverting straight from the EV battery.

So pretty easy for me to quantify the value of V2H over V2L in my case - another 1-2 kWh of energy generation and another 1-2 kWh of EV battery usage per day…

I’d need to add one more 300-500W panel to my array for that much additional production costing me $150-200 and using the EV battery for 4-6 kWh/day (7 to 10% of full capacity) rather than 3-5 kWh/day (5-8%) doesn’t sound like it should be worth a whole heck of alot…

The EV will be purchased long before I need to worry about minimizing export, so I just want to wait for an EV that provides as much optionality and flexibility as possible…

 

[fafrd]

This looks like a very interesting product: https://www.dcbel.energy/wp-content/themes/brook-child/assets/doc/r16_datasheet_FINAL_WEB.pdf

Charges both a stationary (house) battery as well as an EV from AG power or DC solar power.

Can offset loads using an energy meter and if you add an ATS, provides backup as well.

It’s priced in Solark’s range but appears to have much more capability than Solark.

 

[Ampster]

As far as I can tell it can only do V2H via a Chademo interface. There is some reference to CCS but too soon to tell. I think the next few years will be very interesting and full of new products.

 

[fafrd]

As far as I can tell it can only do V2H via a Chademo interface. There is some reference to CCS but too soon to tell. I think the next few years will be very interesting and full of new products.

I agree. I’m seems like all of this stuff is literally gelling as we type.

But as far as a vision of what makes sense once each of the vendors involved has time to get the kinks worked out, it’s pretty compelling.

Under ‘AC Connection Breaker Size Recommendation’ here: https://www.dcbel.energy/r16-specs

The last line of ‘Installation without Blackout Power’ (meaning backup power) says:

‘Power Supply (A) (Plug into wall socket or single-pole
breaker in main panel)’

And they recommend a 15A breaker size into the main panel.

So this hybrid is designed to charge from grid or offset consumption through a 2-pole 240V 50A breaker into the main panel or you can use it to just offset up to 1.4kW of consumption through any 120V outlet.

If you want backup power the way a hybrid such as Solark or Schneider deliver it, you can get that by adding a transfer switch, but if you are only interested to avoid/minimize import and export when grid tied, this seems to be designed to support that function with at least equal priority.

Of course the devil will be on the details of how easily it can be programmed and whether it supports all desired capability or not…

But the vision of a hybrid inverter that can use an EV as an extended battery both for export avoidance as well as for import avoidance while also being able to be powered either by grid AC or AC-coupled solar as well as a DC-coupled PV array makes a huge amount of sense.

I’m currently offsetting most of my load with only ~1.6kW / 13.3A of 120VAC power injection (using two 1kW GTIL inverters that put out a max of 0.8kW each), so the idea of just wiring this into a 15A outlet is attractive.

Will need to see how things unfold over the coming year+…

 

[Dank Farrik]

We are in the early days of "V2x". I'd imagine it will be another 5-10 years before this technology is more standardized and more easily accessible.

 

[nodoze]

... Key is to figure out the Cost/Benefit: whether the compensation or savings justifies your big upfront investment and the reduced cycles available on your battery.
And how altruistic are you? Do you consider your investment to be primarily for your own goals or are you willing to contribute to a "common good"?

My goals would be to give my home additional battery capacity during an extended outage which I think is similar to what the OP is looking for...

OP/others in this thread. I have also researched and thought about this quite a bit and most of what I saw required Chademo and multiple vendors that supported Chademo seemed to be moving away from it. Even with Chademo none of it seemed fully mature in a way to integrate seamlessly into a home backup power setup (like via a Hybrid-Inverter with battery backup like a Sol-Ark).

Most of the things I found did not have any actual product you could buy and many seemed like vaporware... One of the options you could actually buy but which appeared very manual to utilize (but maybe helpful in an emergency) is the following from Setec Power:

Vehicle To Home Inverter Use Feedback - SETEC POWER

Thank you to our customers for choosing our professional Vehicle To Home Inverter, which they have reported as a great convenience for their travels.

www.setec-power.com

Vehicle-to-Home (V2H) 6kVA Charger - SETEC POWER

www.setec-power.com

Vehicle-to-Home (V2H) 6kVA Charger - SETEC POWER

www.setec-power.com

There are multiple videos of this in use on YouTube and I remember seeing one user using his car to help feed his home but my memory was the setup was pretty jury-rigged and maybe not really useable for most folk... If I can find that video again I will post it.

 

[Ampster]

I have also researched and thought about this quite a bit and most of what I saw required Chademo and multiple vendors that supported Chademo seemed to be moving away from it. Even with Chademo none of it seemed fully mature in a way to integrate seamlessly into a home backup power setup (like via a Hybrid-Inverter with battery backup like a Sol-Ark).

Most of the things I found did not have any actual product you could buy and many seemed like vaporware...

I think that is the state of things now. The Setec products you mention describe their use for picnic or emergency use. I have been successful using the 12 volt system on my EVs to power a 1500 Watt 120 V AC inverter for emergency use for a relative and as a way to charge battery powered tools during a powe outage. I think the Ford F150 option looks to be similar and it can output 240v AC.

 

[nodoze]

I think that is the state of things now. The Setec products you mention describe their use for picnic or emergency use. I have been successful using the 12 volt system on my EVs to power a 1500 Watt 120 V AC inverter for emergency use for a relative and as a way to charge battery powered tools during a powe outage. I think the Ford F150 option looks to be similar and it can output 240v AC.

Yeah unfortunately that seems to be the current situation (pun somewhat intended ;-) ).

If the Ford F150 can do clean 240v AC with enough power it could maybe input to the GEN port on a Sol-Ark (if my memory is correct it needs at least 4KW and prefers 5-10KW).

 

[nodoze]

delete repeated post...

 

[fafrd]

My goals would be to give my home additional battery capacity during an extended outage which I think is similar to what the OP is looking for...

OP/others in this thread. I have also researched and thought about this quite a bit and most of what I saw required Chademo and multiple vendors that supported Chademo seemed to be moving away from it. Even with Chademo none of it seemed fully mature in a way to integrate seamlessly into a home backup power setup (like via a Hybrid-Inverter with battery backup like a Sol-Ark).

Most of the things I found did not have any actual product you could buy and many seemed like vaporware... One of the options you could actually buy but which appeared very manual to utilize (but maybe helpful in an emergency) is the following from Setec Power:

Vehicle To Home Inverter Use Feedback - SETEC POWER

Thank you to our customers for choosing our professional Vehicle To Home Inverter, which they have reported as a great convenience for their travels.

www.setec-power.com

Vehicle-to-Home (V2H) 6kVA Charger - SETEC POWER

www.setec-power.com

Vehicle-to-Home (V2H) 6kVA Charger - SETEC POWER

www.setec-power.com

There are multiple videos of this in use on YouTube and I remember seeing one user using his car to help feed his home but my memory was the setup was pretty jury-rigged and maybe not really useable for most folk... If I can find that video again I will post it.

Thanks for sharing the links.

I agree that most of what is out there and working is based on Chademo and also that that appears to be getting phased out here in the US.

But that hybrid inverter I linked to from dcbel states this on the Installation Wiring Diagram: https://www.dcbel.energy/wp-content/themes/brook-child/assets/doc/r16_datasheet_FINAL_WEB.pdf

EV DC: DC Chademo or CCS
EV AC: AC J1772

So unclear whether it is actually available yet and also unclear what vehicles may support DC discharge through CCS (or AC discharge through J1772), but they at least seem to have the right architecture and could be one of the first non-Chademo solutions to support DC fast charging as well as hopefully also DC discharge support for home consumption offset (whether that end being called V2H or not).

Ideally, you want a single hybrid ‘box’ like this to:

push DC out and in from both home battery and EV (if EV supports DC out)

get DC power in from house battery, DC-cooled PV (if any) and EV (if it supports DC out)

get AC power in from grid, AC-coupled PV (if any) or AC-coupled EV (if DC out not supported)

push AC power out to critical loads, or grid, or AC-coupled EV charging (if DC charging not supported)

I’m happy about the discussion and finding products such as that from dcbel because if finally gives me a clear idea of the ‘right’ architecture to aim for.

No idea how long it will take me to get there, but an EV that will support both charge and discharge through a non-Chademo charging port (ideally DC) is what I’ll be waiting for…

 

[nodoze]

It has been awhile but my recollection is that CCS has been evolving to allow 2 way flows...

The following video is the one I mentioned above which is a PHEV that provides supplemental power to the home. If my memory is correct he indicated his Tesla Powerwall gives him 1-2 days of battery backup and if he needs more he can leverage his PHEV's battery for an additional day. He also indicated he could start his PHEV's internal combustion engine and it can recharge his PHEV battery in ~30 minutes and that gives him another day. The following is the video:

If I recall correctly he uses a transfer switch to switch between the Powerwall and his PHEV for powering his whole home.

 

[nodoze]

Thanks for sharing the links.

I agree that most of what is out there and working is based on Chademo and also that that appears to be getting phased out here in the US.

But that hybrid inverter I linked to from dcbel states this on the Installation Wiring Diagram: https://www.dcbel.energy/wp-content/themes/brook-child/assets/doc/r16_datasheet_FINAL_WEB.pdf

EV DC: DC Chademo or CCS
EV AC: AC J1772

So unclear whether it is actually available yet and also unclear what vehicles may support DC discharge through CCS (or AC discharge through J1772), but they at least seem to have the right architecture and could be one of the first non-Chademo solutions to support DC fast charging as well as hopefully also DC discharge support for home consumption offset (whether that end being called V2H or not).

Ideally, you want a single hybrid ‘box’ like this to:

push DC out and in from both home battery and EV (if EV supports DC out)

get DC power in from house battery, DC-cooled PV (if any) and EV (if it supports DC out)

get AC power in from grid, AC-coupled PV (if any) or AC-coupled EV (if DC out not supported)

push AC power out to critical loads, or grid, or AC-coupled EV charging (if DC charging not supported)

I’m happy about the discussion and finding products such as that from dcbel because if finally gives me a clear idea of the ‘right’ architecture to aim for.

No idea how long it will take me to get there, but an EV that will support both charge and discharge through a non-Chademo charging port (ideally DC) is what I’ll be waiting for…

Yeah dcbel's r16 seems to have all (or at least most of) the components though it isn't clear what flexibility, if any, there is around the house battery (size/vendor/etc).

If you find out it is actually available please post back here. I may try reaching out to them as well.

 

[Dank Farrik]

Yeah unfortunately that seems to be the current situation (pun somewhat intended ;-) ).

If the Ford F150 can do clean 240v AC with enough power it could maybe input to the GEN port on a Sol-Ark (if my memory is correct it needs at least 4KW and prefers 5-10KW).

I have a manual transfer switch, so really I just need my EV to be able to supply 240V split phase output.

 

[nodoze]

I reviewed multiple portions of their site and the following seemed to be the most helpful URL (which then sent me to other URLs):

Support - dcbel

Frequently asked questions for dcbel

www.dcbel.energy

If the site is correct it says the dcbel r16 IS AVAILABLE NOW in certain US States:

"dcbel r16 is currently available in select US states. To check availability in your area, visit buy.dcbel.energy. Note that when I checked my Texas location is not one of the areas where it is currently available...

Other info I found:

dcbel r16 starts at $4,999 USD and varies based on the number and type of EV connectors you select, along with your desired cable length and whether you wish to benefit from the blackout power feature.

Outfitting your dcbel r16 with the optional blackout power kit equips the device with an Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS) and Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS). If you have a stationary battery, you’ll need the smaller UPS (9-minute backup) that comes with the basic blackout power kit at $999. If you do not have a stationary battery, then the bigger UPS that forms part of the blackout power kit plus at $1,499 will suit your needs.

[Additional] Energy storage requires a stationary battery to be purchased separately. dcbel is compatible with all batteries that have a 400V DC nominal voltage like the LG Chem RESU.