V2H status?
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Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
I have two Teslas and do not plan on using V2H since I already have 42 kWh connected to my hybrid inverter. Also I do not see Tesla implementing V2H in the foreseeable future.
Bigbillsd
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I am looking at replacing my ancient Silverado with a new electric one. I've looked into adding dedicated batteries to the homestead but that just seems overkill for outages that only occur occasionally in my area. (although predicted shortfalls in power this summer may make me think twice) The 200 KWh battery coupled with solar should keep the house powered for a long time if needed. And I also have a vehicle I can use when needed. When I priced out standalone wall systems, 200 kwh was close to $200k and the truck is 1/4 that cost so its a no brainer to me. I had one of the first Nissan Leaf's and that made me realize I would never buy a ICE vehicle again, there would be no need soon, and that is now our reality. (and there was no real maintenance with that vehicle, tire rotates, windshield wiper replacements and an occational cabin filter)
To the prior poster, he didn't mention Tesla (Musk) says you void your warranty if you try to power your house with his cars. Probably knows no one would buy his fairly pricey wall mount units if he allowed it.
To the prior poster, he didn't mention Tesla (Musk) says you void your warranty if you try to power your house with his cars. Probably knows no one would buy his fairly pricey wall mount units if he allowed it.
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
Also the onboard charger on Teslas is not bidirectional and trying to access the high voltage battery connections is dangerous. I have cobbled together a 12volt workaround for ocassions in the field where temporary power was needed. The 12 volt battery on a Tesla is charged from the high voltage pack by a DC to DC converter with a capacity of at least 50 Amps.
Bigbillsd
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My Leaf could do the same thing with the little accessory battery, but I never needed it so I I never cobbled one together. But the Leaf had the bidirectional Chadmo port too. Which after the Fukashima disaster, Nissan designed and sold a system to allow their cars to power homes. Recently I read something about them starting to sell them globally, if the US is part of the globe, then maybe we will get them too.
We have a Prius Prime and may get a Rav4 Prime & I wanted them because of their hybrid engines with plug in capability. Their plug-in ranges are fine for basic/regular local trips to/from school/store/Church and their hybrid engines let them do long road trips without needing to recharge. Not sure they will ever be really optimal for V2H but I had to get at least 1 vehicle. I do like that the Toyotas do have an extended climate control mode that uses very little fuel (switching between the battery and the hybrid engine) to keep someone safe/comfortable.
Bigbillsd
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Keep in mind to use V2H technology you MUST have a vehicle with DC fast charging. (Not the typical AC charging via a J1772) If your vehicle doesn't have DC fast charging capability you cannot power your home from the main battery. Currently you need a Chadmo or CCS fast charging connector. -Bill
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
The other thing to mention with regard to V2H with a hybrid is that the battery is typically pretty small. The only way to get any benefit from a hybrid is to do major surgery on the high voltage pack like some have done with hybrids. Alternatively you could cobble a 12 volt inverter on to the 12 volt battery and find some way to get the hybrid engine to provide power to charge the 12 volt battery. But that is really not V2H and a cheap generator would be more practical and consume less fuel.
The 2020+ Prime Rav4s have 18+ kWh battery packs & the 2020+ Prime Prius's are ~9 kWh. As I mentioned above the "Prime" variants are Plug-In Hybrids (PHEVs) with more than basic Hybrids. Again I do NOT think these are ideal for V2H but the Plug-In Prime variants are not exactly the same as their standard Hybrid cousins. Unfortunately I could no longer wait for the perfect V2H combination to materialize and had to get at least 1 more vehicle. This is just my 1st foray into my options... I have 5 kids which will be coming of age and leaving the nest and I want to set up each with a safe mobile option for emergencies (in addition to emergency use at our main house).
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Understood. As I alluded to above my goals are multifold and V2H was not my #1 priority & I just could not wait anymore for the perfect solution. Though not out of the box there are several options that could allow a Toyota Hybrid (especially a Prime Plug in Hybrid) to help your home in at least an emergency. For example:
The following site has some examples on leveraging the high voltage batteries of multiple EVs for multiple uses (which likely could include some V2H support):
I have not researched it in full detail but, in addition to AC uses, it may be that solutions like that from PlugOutPower can maybe go DC-to-DC & take the high voltage hybrid/EV battery and go straight to recharge/supplement a 48V DC Home battery bank (haven't had time to research all the options)... That is not my immediate focus but I hope to do some testing with something like that as well.
During snowmageddon here in Texas for example, there were lots of people without power and I don't want my kids to be without options in extreme cold nor heat when they leave home... That was/is my first priority...
The above being typed, as I alluded to above, my higher priority over V2H is more like this for emergency use:
In addition to emergency use here at home or at rental properties, I want to make sure my kids can also at least power an external fridge/freezer, etc in an emergency when away at college... In addition to training them how to take emergency refuge in heat/cold inside the vehicle I also plan to test/train them how to take an external plug/cord to at least be able to power high priority external devices (sump pump, fridge, etc)...
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Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
Yes that is enough to keep the refrigerator and a freezer cold for a few days and power some lights.
Interesting workaround & thanks for sharing. If I understand correctly in this video James Klafehn thought his testing was getting between 82 - 113 amps out of the DC-to-DC converter from the high voltage EV battery to his 12V battery sub-system (discussed throughout and particularly at 9:54 through the end):
I cringed several times watching it but it is interesting that the DC-to-DC converter can handle that much power. I wonder if in an emergency you could safely take another DC-to-DC converter and relatively safely go from the 12v subsystem to help recharge a 48V house battery system without having to tap into the dangerous high voltage EV battery directly (in addition to having options in the field or a remote work site). Also curious what kind of power loss you typically would get going through 2 DC-to-DC conversions (EV Highvoltage -> 12V ->48V). I guess in an emergency you don't care as much about the losses but curious regardless.
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Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
I had a RAV4EV and Tesla did the drivetrain. However talking to the Toyota engineers, they told me that Toyota insisted that the DC to DC converter only operate when the "ignition" was on so it was much harder to implement than the “always on system that Tesla used. That is the fundamental assumption that needs to be checked.
I have watched Klafen's videos. He does not have or share a lot of technical information. He spent a lot of money and did not make any significant breakthroughs. In my opinion he would have been better off buying an EV with more range. The RAV4EV was just a compliance car for Toyota which allowed them to sell more Tundras. Also, I am of the opinion that charging one battery from another is an inefficient exercise. I also do not want to add wear and tear to my EV batteries when I can buy inexpensive and safer LFPs to power my house.
I have watched Klafen's videos. He does not have or share a lot of technical information. He spent a lot of money and did not make any significant breakthroughs. In my opinion he would have been better off buying an EV with more range. The RAV4EV was just a compliance car for Toyota which allowed them to sell more Tundras. Also, I am of the opinion that charging one battery from another is an inefficient exercise. I also do not want to add wear and tear to my EV batteries when I can buy inexpensive and safer LFPs to power my house.
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Overall I agree and would not want to do it as a regular every day solution.
If I recall correctly I think James has/had both an older RAV4EV (pure battery) and the newer Rav4 Prime PHEV (plugin hybrid) and that most recent testing video was with the Prime PHEV.
That being said, in an extended grid power down situation to my home/neighborhood, having an emergency option to be able to help safely recharge a house battery bank from the hybrid gas engine &/or HV battery could be helpful. In my initial testing it seems the Prime systems, even with the EV battery fully charged, doesn't really let you drain the EV battery much before kicking in the gas engine to recharge the battery. After plug-in charging overnight had the plug-in hybrid's HV battery fully charged (between 9-18 kWh depending on which Prime model) I unplugged it & tried to just run the car's air conditioner while sitting there in the sun with the gas engine off and the programming would not let the EV battery go down much before it would briefly start the gas engine and recharge the HV battery (could not see an option in the UI/settings to try to adjust that behavior). With that in mind it looks likely the HV battery will just go down a little and then recharge from the gas engine if I tried to tap into the DC-to-DC system on the 12V side in an emergency.
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Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
Yes it could be helpful. However a propane generator would be more efficient if you were going to use fossil fuel. During a major power outage buying gas is going to be an issue so I would not want to empty my vehicle tank to keep my ice cream cold.
Of course, since I drive two EVs and like playing with solar, inverters and batteries, I am going to see different solutions
RayofSunshine
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I have been searching for a while, wondering why string/hybrid inverters (any inverter that DC couples PV panels into MPPTs) don’t offer the capability of direct DC charging of EVs. Heck, they can send DC current to integrated (or closely coupled, or even non-closely coupled) residential battery ESSs; be they low voltage (~48V) or high voltage (I’ve seen up to 600V). And EVs can accept “DC fast charging”. I thought maybe there was some limitation in the EV charging schema that I was missing.
Then a few months ago I found the dcbel 16 that was mentioned earlier in this thread (I didn’t find this thread until a few days ago). “Huh”, says I, “I guess it is possible”. But this solution requires that you use their inverter. I was hoping to find a solution where I could add an EV charger to an inverter that I had in mind (say, something like the Sol-Ark 12K or 15K, or maybe an Outback).
Then I discovered a company called Enteligent. they have some pretty cool DC optimizer/RSD devices that are either available now or are imminent, but they also have just what I described above and more: an EV charger that connects to an inverter, which takes DC current from your PV panels and sends it to their EV charger, which sends it to your EV (without first inverting it to AC). It “can also be powered simultaneously by the AC grid” and battery ESS so that it “is up to three times faster than AC Level 2 EV chargers and delivers at a fraction of the cost of dedicated DC chargers”. It is also bidirectional, so you can use your (appropriately equipped) EV as a battery ESS. It is “Coming Fall 2022”. They are working with several inverter manufacturers (including Sol-Ark). I spoke with Ed Rosenberry. Nice guy. Very helpful. This piece of kit looks really promising. You should check them out.
Then a few months ago I found the dcbel 16 that was mentioned earlier in this thread (I didn’t find this thread until a few days ago). “Huh”, says I, “I guess it is possible”. But this solution requires that you use their inverter. I was hoping to find a solution where I could add an EV charger to an inverter that I had in mind (say, something like the Sol-Ark 12K or 15K, or maybe an Outback).
Then I discovered a company called Enteligent. they have some pretty cool DC optimizer/RSD devices that are either available now or are imminent, but they also have just what I described above and more: an EV charger that connects to an inverter, which takes DC current from your PV panels and sends it to their EV charger, which sends it to your EV (without first inverting it to AC). It “can also be powered simultaneously by the AC grid” and battery ESS so that it “is up to three times faster than AC Level 2 EV chargers and delivers at a fraction of the cost of dedicated DC chargers”. It is also bidirectional, so you can use your (appropriately equipped) EV as a battery ESS. It is “Coming Fall 2022”. They are working with several inverter manufacturers (including Sol-Ark). I spoke with Ed Rosenberry. Nice guy. Very helpful. This piece of kit looks really promising. You should check them out.
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F150 Powerboost will power a home just fine….. just sayin
Thanks for the link. Here’s the ‘datasheet’: https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/ce...directional_EV_Charger_.pdf?ver=1658843703410
It seems to be based on a bi-directional 400VDC to/from the EV.
PV range is 250 to 450VDC, so that implies that it integrated a DC-DC step-up converter.
The storage batteries are 100 to 600VDC so that suggests that the batteries are on a separate DC input/output from the charger (and also stepped up or down as needed).
The diagram is confusing because it suggests that the DC battery and DC PV output are shorted to a single DC input / output from the charger.
It’s a pity they don’t support more consumer-friendly battery options such as 48V but other than that, it is an interesting architecture that allows the DC-side to be completely decoupled from the AC-side (use any inverter you want).
I just ran into this: https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5ff...2de84a391b2e2_V2X Charger Technical Specs.pdf
It claims to support ‘V2X’ including V2H with up to 11.5kW of 240VAC power.
It also states: ‘Pair with the Emporia Vue to automate your energy use and storage to meet your needs, comfort, and budget.’
So the key question will be how well and easily the Emporia Vue allows load consumption to be offset… (at least for the use-case I am interested in).
The advantage of an AC-coupled bidirectional charging solution is that the high-voltage DC to/from the EV is seperate from the PV array.
Going from PVDC to 240VAC to EVDC involves some solar efficiency but allows the PV array to be designed independently of the high-voltage requirements of either the EV or the bidirectional charger.
I’ve got a small 1S3P PV array that I could use to charge an EV with an AC-coupled bidirectional charger such as this but would have to enlarge to a 7S1P string to deliver the 250VDC needed by the Enteligenr DC-coupled bidirectional charger.
And because my array has to deal with some pretty severe shading issues throughout the morning (shifting shadow from a tree), I’d probably need to up the string to at least 9S or accept total loss of power generation until the shading has past (meaning I’ll lose close to ~50% of the power available from a 1SxP string…
So at least go my priorities, it’s the bidirectional charging capability as well as the ability to deliver AC-power throttled to offset home consumption (while grid-tied) that is the key functionality I’m waiting for.
I don’t mind an AC-coupled All-In-One bidirectional charger including an inverter as long as it can easily be controlled for zero-export.
It claims to support ‘V2X’ including V2H with up to 11.5kW of 240VAC power.
It also states: ‘Pair with the Emporia Vue to automate your energy use and storage to meet your needs, comfort, and budget.’
So the key question will be how well and easily the Emporia Vue allows load consumption to be offset… (at least for the use-case I am interested in).
The advantage of an AC-coupled bidirectional charging solution is that the high-voltage DC to/from the EV is seperate from the PV array.
Going from PVDC to 240VAC to EVDC involves some solar efficiency but allows the PV array to be designed independently of the high-voltage requirements of either the EV or the bidirectional charger.
I’ve got a small 1S3P PV array that I could use to charge an EV with an AC-coupled bidirectional charger such as this but would have to enlarge to a 7S1P string to deliver the 250VDC needed by the Enteligenr DC-coupled bidirectional charger.
And because my array has to deal with some pretty severe shading issues throughout the morning (shifting shadow from a tree), I’d probably need to up the string to at least 9S or accept total loss of power generation until the shading has past (meaning I’ll lose close to ~50% of the power available from a 1SxP string…
So at least go my priorities, it’s the bidirectional charging capability as well as the ability to deliver AC-power throttled to offset home consumption (while grid-tied) that is the key functionality I’m waiting for.
I don’t mind an AC-coupled All-In-One bidirectional charger including an inverter as long as it can easily be controlled for zero-export.
I am pretty sure awhile back I saw both this V2X potential offering & also their POTENTIAL Energy Storage System (ESS) offering:
Home Battery
Empower your home with Emporia Home Battery Storage. Enjoy resilience, savings, and grid independence with a best-in-class warranty
www.emporiaenergy.com
The problem with both of the above is those are POTENTIAL offerings... Like pretty much everything else I have seen lots of good ideas and supposedly offerings in the mix but at most they are trials in select areas and certainly not available at retail...
I do think their vision is in the right direction and I would love to see some actual offerings at realistic prices. I already invested in some www.iotawatt.com devices but they are/will not be automatically integrated with any solution like Solark or what not and Emporia Energy may have a fully holistic solution one day (and hopefully at reasonable prices)...
If you do see an actual offering on a V2X (especially if integrated with an ESS) from them (or anyone else) please report back to this thread.
Will do.I am pretty sure awhile back I saw both this V2X potential offering & also their POTENTIAL Energy Storage System (ESS) offering:
Home Battery
Empower your home with Emporia Home Battery Storage. Enjoy resilience, savings, and grid independence with a best-in-class warranty
The problem with both of the above is those are POTENTIAL offerings... Like pretty much everything else I have seen lots of good ideas and supposedly offerings in the mix but at most they are trials in select areas and certainly not available at retail...
I do think their vision is in the right direction and I would love to see some actual offerings at realistic prices. I already invested in some www.iotawatt.com devices but they are/will not be automatically integrated with any solution like Solark or what not and Emporia Energy may have a fully holistic solution one day (and hopefully at reasonable prices)...
If you do see an actual offering on a V2X (especially if integrated with an ESS) from them (or anyone else) please report back to this thread.
I’m not in a huge rush to actually purchase anything. I’ve got a 1kW array of setting consumption today using a 24V 14kWh LiFePO4 4 using a pair of 1kW GTILs and the whole system has worked better than I had hoped for over a year now.
And I Al so don’t have an EV yet (probably by 2024 or 2025).
My whole thing is to try to nail down a target architecture for how I want to evolve my system by the time I have an EV and some form of EV charger.
I’ve got to redo my roof next yesr or by 2024 at the latest, and that’s going to require pulling down all of the solar.
Rebuilding the solar array is the same work/cost whether it’s an identical 3P1S array or the larger array I’d need to offset the added consumption of charging an EV so I want to upgrade the array at that time and would it to be future-proofed to work with whatever longer-term SCC / Inverter / charger / All-in-One I will be moving two once the EV arrives.
So I’m just tracking all of these architectures and hoping we see some clarity on the winning approaches within the next 12-24 months.
Using V2L to power an AC charger to push energy from the EV battery will function today, but god is it inefficient!
I’m hoping we see a bidirectional charger controlled by a smart energy meter that allows an EV to offset consumption the way my GTILs do foday.
California is driving us towards minimum export & minimum import and I’d much rather achieve that with an EV than a bigger more expensive home battery…
I spoke with Emporia.I am pretty sure awhile back I saw both this V2X potential offering & also their POTENTIAL Energy Storage System (ESS) offering:
Home Battery
Empower your home with Emporia Home Battery Storage. Enjoy resilience, savings, and grid independence with a best-in-class warranty
The problem with both of the above is those are POTENTIAL offerings... Like pretty much everything else I have seen lots of good ideas and supposedly offerings in the mix but at most they are trials in select areas and certainly not available at retail...
I do think their vision is in the right direction and I would love to see some actual offerings at realistic prices. I already invested in some www.iotawatt.com devices but they are/will not be automatically integrated with any solution like Solark or what not and Emporia Energy may have a fully holistic solution one day (and hopefully at reasonable prices)...
If you do see an actual offering on a V2X (especially if integrated with an ESS) from them (or anyone else) please report back to this thread.
Their Energy Monitor and smart EV charger are available today.
On the consumption side, this allows you to avoid export by controlling the smart EV charger to only charge when their is excess solar power being generated that would otherwise export to the grid.
The bidirectional EV charger will no be available before 2024 and the major reason for that is that they are awaiting EVs supporting bi-directional charging through CCS to be available.
According to them, the only EV announced to support bi-directional charging through CCS is the Volkswagen ID.4: https://insideevs.com/news/568191/vw-id4-plugcharge-bidirectional-charging/amp/
Until we’ve got both the EVs supporting V2H as well as bidirectional chargers such as the one being developed by Emporia, we can’t be certain whether V2X can be used to offset consumption (while grid-tied) or only for backup power use (off-grid).
Statements like this don’t help clear up that question at all:
‘The update will arrive in Vehicle to Home (V2H) form, which means ID.4 owners will be able to power their appliances from the car or the entire house in case of a blackout.’
On the other hand, the EV itself has no way of knowing what the bidirectional charger is going with the DC power it exports and when the Volkswagen exec makes statements such as this, it leaves me optimistic that bidirectional chargers such as the one being developed by Emporia will be capable of offsetting grid consumption using ID.4 battery energy:
“Bidirectional charging will be available this year for all ID. Models with 77 kWh battery, also via OTA update. In the beginning we will only offer Vehicle-to-home. This means you can run your dishwasher with electricity from abroad."
‘Abroad’ was likely a typo/confusion meant to refer to ‘onboard’ (the ID.4) but unless he meant you can run your dishwasher during a blackout, that sure sounds like load offsetting while on-grid…
This Forum is specific to the Chevy Bolt but it focuses on which EVs present and future, support bi-directional charging through and V2H through CCS: https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/bidirectional-charging.41341/
The short answer is none today but the Volkswagen ID.4 soon (hopefully)…
The short answer is none today but the Volkswagen ID.4 soon (hopefully)…
This is a good but deeper read on the ISO 15118-20 standard needed to enable bi-directional charging trough CCS: https://www.switch-ev.com/news-and-events/new-features-and-timeline-for-iso15118-20
It is supposed to be finalized and published before the end of this year, but this is the long pole in the tent as far as CCS chargers supporting but-directional charging - until this standard is at least published if not also finalized, no CCS EV charger companies are going to release bi-directional EV chargers.
A ~1 year delay between publication of the standard and first commercial products is probably the minimum to expect…
It is supposed to be finalized and published before the end of this year, but this is the long pole in the tent as far as CCS chargers supporting but-directional charging - until this standard is at least published if not also finalized, no CCS EV charger companies are going to release bi-directional EV chargers.
A ~1 year delay between publication of the standard and first commercial products is probably the minimum to expect…
Wallbox claims that their Sono bidirectional charger is already compliant with ISO 15118-20: https://sonomotors.com/en/bidirectional-wallbox/
Vector released a software library complaint with USI 15118-20 in mid-June: https://www.vector.com/us/en/news/n...lable-in-the-controller-software-vsecclibccs/
So it’s theoretically possible.
Now when will Volkswagen release a SW update for the id.4 to make it compliant with ISO 15118-20?
Bleeding-edge stuff (but exciting).
With an ISO-1511-20-conpluant charger and an ISO-1511-20-compliant EV such as the id.4, you’ll be able to charge your EV up using available excess PV energy during the day, then use that energy to offset load overnight.
The id.4 has a 77kWh battery option and I consume less than 15kWh between sundown and sunrise.
So cycling less than 20% of battery capacity daily should allow folks like me to avoid any grid consumption at all except in December/January and during extended periods of bad weather….
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